|
Post by fwip on Sept 2, 2015 15:24:39 GMT
[FIRE ELEMENTAL STRONGLY DISAGREES] Everybody has reasons, but reasons are not always excuses. I'd make a [disagreement intensifies] gif but I'm on an ancient netbook that hates everything. *insert the idea of that gif here*
|
|
|
Post by tootsiren on Sept 2, 2015 15:38:22 GMT
Neither aspect of Annie is reacting reasonably to this news. That's why what Annie did is incredibly unhealthy. Rather than deal with her anger and resentment she divorced herself from it, which is allowing her anger to fester & grow while what's left of her continues to enable & rationalize the emotional abuse.
Annie has a big problem that she's refusing to confront. The Donlans want to help, but they don't realize the extent of what's happening. It's going to take some etheric meddling to get Annie back to her normal self.
|
|
|
Post by Nepycros on Sept 2, 2015 15:45:38 GMT
Pretty clear that Annie is an abuser, and many of Annies friends are in abusive relationship with her. ;-) You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. (Credit for edit goes to hellohello) Is how she's reacting really "compartmentalization", or is it the most she can muster in her current form? You make a very valid point here. However, I would argue that being physically split in half IS how this fantasy comic represents that Annie is compartmentalizing. Her whole comment when she cut herself was "I can't deal with [these emotions] right now", after all. Perfectly valid, however I do think that the moment when she was in emotional distress (angry at her father and her own circumstances) differs from how she ought to feel right now (processing the emotional abuse and what it means going forward), and her being in this split state is, less psychologically and more physiologically, making it impossible to even move forward emotionally. I'd say it differs from metaphorical compartmentalization if only because the solution isn't as cut-and-dry as introspection and therapy. In Annie's case, a literal form of ethereal glue is probably needed to put her back together (as a person and an elemental).
|
|
quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
|
Post by quark on Sept 2, 2015 16:05:50 GMT
How did I not see that coming? But, that's pretty much it. Expecting robot-Annie to process her emotion is about as fruitless to expect Anthony to process his. SO frustrating. I dread the moment fire-Annie has enough and starts working on her frustrations.
|
|
|
Post by Trillium on Sept 2, 2015 16:16:22 GMT
You know Annie's behavior may not be a bad thing. The five stages of grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and then acceptance. Annie could be in the first stage and maybe now she can move forward. She may however need a push.
|
|
|
Post by aline on Sept 2, 2015 16:25:29 GMT
I mean, I would say that the part of Annie that once decided to not forgive and try to get back at Jack was mainly the flame It's kinda off topic, but since that episode keeps popping up in the conversation: Annie's "I don't really like you" to Jack wasn't to get back at him. She lied when she said that. To understand that particular scene, you need to (re)read "Annie in the forest" (in the "Extra comics" section).
This is the important scene, in vol 2: Page 9 Page 10 Page 11 Annie wasn't trying to get revenge. She was trying to seduce him. By following very clumsily bad relationship advice from a tree elf. When it turned out that Jake was never really interested in the first place, she had to find some excuse quickly, because the truth was too humiliating. And this is how she managed make the guy she wanted a kiss from think she was a revenge hungry bitch.
|
|
|
Post by eyemyself on Sept 2, 2015 16:25:50 GMT
From Helpguide.org - an internationally recognized non-profit resource guide to mental health and well being:
Whether or not you personally believe Anthony is abusive to Annie the fact is his behavior as a parent does meet the standard of abuse commonly set by many social services agencies and advocacy groups. Does this make him irredeemable? No. Evil? No. A villain? No.
It does make him a bad parent and it does make him dangerous to his daughter. Futhermore, continuing to excuse his behavior supports the culture of abuse apologizism that stigmatizes real world abuse victims and makes it harder for them to come forward and get the help they need.
I like Anthony as a character. He is interesting because he is realistic, and relateable with all his deep seated flaws and inner turmoil. You can like the character and still recognize that his relationship with Annie is harmful and that many of her problems and flaws are strongly tied to his dysfunctional way of interacting with her.
I realize that I'm probably screaming into the void here, but I am so sick of this "is it abuse, is it not abuse" fiasco continuing to drag on despite all of the in story evidence. I work in social services and have worked directly with survivors of abuse over the years, helping them process their experiences, put their lives back together, and deal with the trauma. The fact that Anthony has allowed his shit to spill over into his relationship with is daughter is damaging. Parents bare a minimum responsibility to their kids that Anthony is utterly failing to meet. He may in fact be incapable of meeting it at this time, but that does not absolve him of his responsibility to ensure that someone responsible will step in and fill that role until such a time as he is able to do so, and that in his absence his daughter knows what to expect and who she can turn to for support. In a fictional world like Gunnerkrigg a parent child relationship like Anthony and Annie's makes for a good story because it is very real, and that is why it is heartbreaking and connects with readers emotionally. That being said, continuing to try and excuse, justify, or explain away Tony's mistakes because "x,y, or z" makes it OK" is inexcusable. That kind of attitude hurts real life survivors of abuse by promoting a victim blaming mentality, perpetuating a culture of shame around abuse, and stigmatizing those who are living with or have had past experience with abuse.
/end rant
|
|
Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
|
Post by Sadie on Sept 2, 2015 16:41:44 GMT
I absolutely love the progressive calming of Fire-Annie's rage throughout the past few pages, and how quickly it snaps back into full blaze the second her 'rational' half casually denies there was a reason to be angry in the first place.
For all that it was initially shown as a rampaging fury beast, ready to burn everything to the ground, Annie's Fire, her displaced anger and hurt, isn't just a monstrous force that can only cause harm. It quiets at the memory of talking with Ysengrin, it quiets at the sight of her father's grief and regret -- and does so all without the direct control and interference of her rational half.
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 2, 2015 16:50:18 GMT
I like Anthony as a character. He is interesting because he is realistic, and relateable with all his deep seated flaws and inner turmoil. You can like the character and still recognize that his relationship with Annie is harmful and that many of her problems and flaws are strongly tied to his dysfunctional way of interacting with her. I like Anthony as a character too but generally I greatly prefer funny jerks over weepy.
|
|
Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
|
Post by Sadie on Sept 2, 2015 16:58:18 GMT
I mean, I would say that the part of Annie that once decided to not forgive and try to get back at Jack was mainly the flame It's kinda off topic, but since that episode keeps popping up in the conversation: Annie's "I don't really like you" to Jack wasn't to get back at him. She lied when she said that. To understand that particular scene, you need to (re)read "Annie in the forest" (in the "Extra comics" section).
This is the important scene, in vol 2: Page 9 Page 10 Page 11 Annie wasn't trying to get revenge. She was trying to seduce him. By following very clumsily bad relationship advice from a tree elf. When it turned out that Jake was never really interested in the first place, she had to find some excuse quickly, because the truth was too humiliating. And this is how she managed make the guy she wanted a kiss from think she was a revenge hungry bitch. Oh my god, thank you for bringing that up, I'd completely forgotten about that part and kept reading the scene with Jack at face value! FYI, your links aren't working right: Page 9Page 10Page 11Also, I love re-reading that and seeing Annie's half-assed approach to determining if she likes a guy. "Well, I only know so many guys and these ones are completely off the board, sooooo....Jack it is!"
|
|
|
Post by l33tninja on Sept 2, 2015 17:19:53 GMT
I have to agree with the Fire Elemental on this one (not that I would want to get into a disagreement with one . . . because, ouch). We as the observers can be distant, calculating, and objective. Annie should be really upset; at least I would be. So I guess maybe the Elemental contains Annie's emotional responses (is that 100 percent for sure, I have seen lots of people mention it). Maybe Annie is just really forgiving and believes in second chances (and third chances).
|
|
|
Post by aline on Sept 2, 2015 17:31:40 GMT
Also, I love re-reading that and seeing Annie's half-assed approach to determining if she likes a guy. "Well, I only know so many guys and these ones are completely off the board, sooooo....Jack it is!" That is cute, isn't it? Thanks for telling me about the links, I repaired them.
|
|
|
Post by eyemyself on Sept 2, 2015 18:08:58 GMT
I like Anthony as a character. He is interesting because he is realistic, and relateable with all his deep seated flaws and inner turmoil. You can like the character and still recognize that his relationship with Annie is harmful and that many of her problems and flaws are strongly tied to his dysfunctional way of interacting with her. I like Anthony as a character too but generally I greatly prefer funny jerks over weepy. Anthony is tragicomic. He's so tragic I am forced to find humor in it because so much of his misfortune (with the exception of Surma's passing) was entirely due to his own choices/actions and could have been completely prevented if he'd just taken a moment to use a lifeline and phone a friend. Also, who doesn't love these jerks?
|
|
yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
|
Post by yinglung on Sept 2, 2015 18:22:17 GMT
I am reminded of when Antimony first came to the court; she was very reserved, rational, and still curious. I think Tom has said that part of that characterization is because she was still processing the grief of losing her mother. As such, it's not surprising that when her father enters her life so suddenly, she has to process the events in a similar way. The difference is, this time she seems to be suppressing/processing her anger. She knows she can be hurtful when truly angry, and that the elemental within her amplifies her emotions. Thus, the cut off state, and her placid appearance. Like last time, she will probably need a safe place and/or person to express her emotions to. The people who care for her don't quite qualify; they will just get angry too. She needs a neutral, understanding person. I'm thinking Jones. I think it's also instructive to look at how Antimony and Anthony each handled their pain and grief. Antimony is essentially a loving person who makes mistakes and successfully reconciles with people she has harmed or has tried to harm, and learns vital lessons from the situation. Anthony runs away (he's known for it, ffs), acts like a tool when he returns, and blubbers theatrically about how unfair life is to him. If anything, I'd say Anthony and Antimony handle grief in similar ways. As for "blubbering theatrically"... I do not express emotions to people without significant stimulus. It takes a long period of dealing with guilt, and someone asking just the right questions, and then I break down and cry and finally tell someone what's going on in my head. That's part of what got me into GC, I could relate to Antimony with her flat affect. So to me, Anthony was not theatrically blubbering, he was finally expressing his grief and guilt and self-doubt to the one person he could confide in. Also, if losing your wife and accidentally harming your daughter can be dismissed as "life isn't fair", then the phrase is being used incorrectly.
|
|
|
Post by Purgatorius on Sept 2, 2015 18:29:18 GMT
|
|
|
Post by eyemyself on Sept 2, 2015 18:42:07 GMT
|
|
|
Post by setrain on Sept 2, 2015 19:54:55 GMT
I quoted Jones, easy to read the whole firespike chapter. Annie's behavior trying to make up with her best friend could be if looked at wrong way the classic signs of an abusive bully stalker x-boyfriend if Annie was boyfriend and Kat was girlfriend. Meanwhile Kat was ice-queen emotional abuser like Anthony. When Annie met Mort she taught him how to emotionally abuse others. Then she emotionally abused Mort, who was only trying to help by giving blinker stone as requested. ;-) Meanwhile Team X-Forest creatures/Fairies says "what good friends" when Red and "Blue" abuse each other.... I've seen little kids, teens who squabble for sport, can go from friend to "emotional abuse" enemy to friend again in matter of hours, and they can learn and change. Most people who have brought up the abuse issue or pointed out Tony's toxic behavior didn't do it because they need to make Tony as evil as possible. I believe a lot of them have recognized patterns and actions as abusive because they've experienced them in real life. Annie has apologized to Jack, Mort (the blinker stone business), and Kat, and to many other people she hurt through her actions. She's a 14 (?) y-o child who makes mistakes and sometimes reacts in ways that hurt others - the comic has always underlined that communication is vital and that her actions do sometimes have negative consequences she needs to deal with. In the same way Zimmy's despair and subsequent toxic attempt to keep Gamma for herself has never been sugarcoated and should not be. Annie's behavior towards Jack has been drawn and written as weird and creepy, and readers saw that. The point is - yes it was toxic, and emotional manipulation is a big part of an abusive behavior. Which she stopped, because she understood it wasn't good. I know the "Ooh come on, everyone is abusive in Gunnerkrigg if you read in a certain way" stance is meant as a joke but to be honest after all the very personal and serious posts about abuse and how people affected by this issue recognized or did not recognize abuse in Tony's behaviour, I find that the joke reduces pages and pages of discussions into one big "silly overreaction". Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by setrain on Sept 2, 2015 20:02:33 GMT
From Helpguide.org - an internationally recognized non-profit resource guide to mental health and well being: Whether or not you personally believe Anthony is abusive to Annie the fact is his behavior as a parent does meet the standard of abuse commonly set by many social services agencies and advocacy groups. Does this make him irredeemable? No. Evil? No. A villain? No. It does make him a bad parent and it does make him dangerous to his daughter. Futhermore, continuing to excuse his behavior supports the culture of abuse apologizism that stigmatizes real world abuse victims and makes it harder for them to come forward and get the help they need. I like Anthony as a character. He is interesting because he is realistic, and relateable with all his deep seated flaws and inner turmoil. You can like the character and still recognize that his relationship with Annie is harmful and that many of her problems and flaws are strongly tied to his dysfunctional way of interacting with her. I realize that I'm probably screaming into the void here, but I am so sick of this "is it abuse, is it not abuse" fiasco continuing to drag on despite all of the in story evidence. I work in social services and have worked directly with survivors of abuse over the years, helping them process their experiences, put their lives back together, and deal with the trauma. The fact that Anthony has allowed his shit to spill over into his relationship with is daughter is damaging. Parents bare a minimum responsibility to their kids that Anthony is utterly failing to meet. He may in fact be incapable of meeting it at this time, but that does not absolve him of his responsibility to ensure that someone responsible will step in and fill that role until such a time as he is able to do so, and that in his absence his daughter knows what to expect and who she can turn to for support. In a fictional world like Gunnerkrigg a parent child relationship like Anthony and Annie's makes for a good story because it is very real, and that is why it is heartbreaking and connects with readers emotionally. That being said, continuing to try and excuse, justify, or explain away Tony's mistakes because "x,y, or z" makes it OK" is inexcusable. That kind of attitude hurts real life survivors of abuse by promoting a victim blaming mentality, perpetuating a culture of shame around abuse, and stigmatizing those who are living with or have had past experience with abuse. /end rant I'm glad you made this post so that I didn't have to. And you said it really well, so thanks.
|
|
|
Post by nero on Sept 2, 2015 20:52:38 GMT
You stick with your family through the good and bad times, because they might not have anyone else who will stay by their side. But you can't stay in a harmful relationship, and you have to call out on their problems. If Annie was whole again, I would guess she would tell Kat everything, and then ask her psychopomp friends to track down those weirdos.
If Annie doesn't see a reason to combine, someone has to convince her. There's Anja, Renard, Parley, Jack, Jenny, Lindsey, and ZimGam, and anyone from the Forest.
|
|
|
Post by TBeholder on Sept 2, 2015 20:53:18 GMT
Given the setup (almost by definition neither part plays with the full matchbox)... "So it hath fallen, as it was bound to fall"? So it seems that the audience and Antimony are taking away slightly different things from that last page. The problem may be that instead of Antimony here's half-Annie and half-Annie? He learned to not act like a zombie in this state, but... That... can not be healthy. ...yes. Don't worry, I speak Fire Elemental. Speech bubbles for the last two panels read, in order: "... Seriously?" and "SERIOUSLY?!" Also an option.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 0:56:56 GMT
Tony is understandable now, but still dangerous and abusive, and ultimately I think Annie would probably have been better off if he had died in that cave.
The fact that he could go through all that and still have no empathy for his daughter, no tears for her, no apologies for her, only pity for himself - his story is a sad one, but it's not a story about a person who will probably ever be a good father in any way. He needs to do the right thing for Annie and keep himself as far away from her as possible until he learns how to act like a human being.
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on Sept 3, 2015 1:08:39 GMT
You know Annie's behavior may not be a bad thing. The five stages of grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and then acceptance. Annie could be in the first stage and maybe now she can move forward. She may however need a push. Actually, she is in two phases of grief at once! Annie is in the denial phase and the Fire Elemental is in the anger phase. They both need to reconnect in the bargaining phase. Hopefully they will realize they need help from others to make it through the depression phase. Tony is understandable now, but still dangerous and abusive, and ultimately I think Annie would probably have been better off if he had died in that cave. The fact that he could go through all that and still have no empathy for his daughter, no tears for her, no apologies for her, only pity for himself - his story is a sad one, but it's not a story about a person who will probably ever be a good father in any way. He needs to do the right thing for Annie and keep himself as far away from her as possible until he learns how to act like a human being. Makes me wonder if Anthony could't handle some of his emotions when he was younger and "cut them out" kind of like Annie. He has been stoic in the earliest flashback we've seen, but we haven't seen what he was like at the beginning of Year 7. If he cut part of himself out, then it may have been before he started Year 7, or maybe starting at the school was the traumatic experience he couldn't handle without cutting part of himself out. Maybe Brinnie traumatized him.
|
|
|
Post by Daedalus on Sept 3, 2015 1:25:13 GMT
Tony is understandable now, but still dangerous and abusive, and ultimately I think Annie would probably have been better off if he had died in that cave. The fact that he could go through all that and still have no empathy for his daughter, no tears for her, no apologies for her, only pity for himself - his story is a sad one, but it's not a story about a person who will probably ever be a good father in any way. He needs to do the right thing for Annie and keep himself as far away from her as possible until he learns how to act like a human being. Makes me wonder if Anthony could't handle some of his emotions when he was younger and "cut them out" kind of like Annie. He has been stoic in the earliest flashback we've seen, but we haven't seen what he was like at the beginning of Year 7. If he cut part of himself out, then it may have been before he started Year 7, or maybe starting at the school was the traumatic experience he couldn't handle without cutting part of himself out. Maybe Brinnie traumatized him. I still like my crackpot theory that in a freak lab accident, his emotions were transferred to Surma and her cold logic was grafted to him - that would explain the disparities between the manipulative Surma who tricked Renard and the warm Surma that Annie grew up with, as well as explaining why Tony is so cold to everyone but Donny
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on Sept 3, 2015 1:28:02 GMT
I still like my crackpot theory that in a freak lab accident, his emotions were transferred to Surma and her cold logic was grafted to him - that would explain the disparities between the manipulative Surma who tricked Renard and the warm Surma that Annie grew up with, as well as explaining why Tony is so cold to everyone but Donny Nice, but it could use a dash of time travel!
|
|
|
Post by TBeholder on Sept 3, 2015 5:53:04 GMT
Anyone noticed that Annie here seems to practice the same selective obliviousness as Anthony did? Tony is understandable now, but still dangerous and abusive, and ultimately I think Annie would probably have been better off if he had died in that cave. She would still have an unresolved issue. It's still here even if it doesn't pop on surface. He needs to do the right thing for Annie and keep himself as far away from her as possible until he learns how to act like a human being. But, but... the Abandonment was BAA-AAAD! Morton's fork. You know Annie's behavior may not be a bad thing. The five stages of grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and then acceptance. Actually, she is in two phases of grief at once! Annie is in the denial phase and the Fire Elemental is in the anger phase. Aye. It's called "distributed processing". Maybe Brinnie traumatized him. The Valkyries should pack a mean punch, yes.
|
|
|
Post by hellohello on Sept 3, 2015 6:07:35 GMT
I'd make a [disagreement intensifies] gif but I'm on an ancient netbook that hates everything. *insert the idea of that gif here* Aw hell yeah, thanks guys.
|
|
|
Post by Daedalus on Sept 3, 2015 6:16:52 GMT
Aw hell yeah, thanks guys. I appreciate the thanks, but fwip-san informed me of the request in the first place so he deserves to be thanked twice. Not to mention his is significantly better, haha!
|
|
|
Post by Elysium on Sept 3, 2015 13:35:49 GMT
I quoted Jones, easy to read the whole firespike chapter. Jones and Annie have a strange relationship but abuse is not part of it. Annie's behavior trying to make up with her best friend could be if looked at wrong way the classic signs of an abusive bully stalker x-boyfriend if Annie was boyfriend and Kat was girlfriend. Meanwhile Kat was ice-queen emotional abuser like Anthony. That wasn't abusive, come on. When Annie met Mort she taught him how to emotionally abuse others. Then she emotionally abused Mort, who was only trying to help by giving blinker stone as requested. ;-) Annie had a blowout at Mort, but their relationship wasn't based on abuse This instance comes to mind. That was an exchange of nasty words, but Annie and Rey's relationship is not abusive. I do mean an abusive relationship, ie a relationship that is based on abuse, like Annie to Jack, Tony to Annie, not occasionnal nastiness.
|
|
arzeik
Junior Member
Posts: 77
|
Post by arzeik on Sept 3, 2015 14:43:32 GMT
I mean, I would say that the part of Annie that once decided to not forgive and try to get back at Jack was mainly the flame It's kinda off topic, but since that episode keeps popping up in the conversation: Annie's "I don't really like you" to Jack wasn't to get back at him. She lied when she said that. To understand that particular scene, you need to (re)read "Annie in the forest" (in the "Extra comics" section).
This is the important scene, in vol 2:_ Page 9 Page 10 Page 11 Annie wasn't trying to get revenge. She was trying to seduce him. By following very clumsily bad relationship advice from a tree elf. When it turned out that Jake was never really interested in the first place, she had to find some excuse quickly, because the truth was too humiliating. And this is how she managed make the guy she wanted a kiss from think she was a revenge hungry bitch. Hell, that makes sense. The worst thing is that I had read "Annie in the forest"; it just turns out I never related both scenes. Thank you for showing me how bad and oblivious I can sometimes be at reading this comic. No, seriously, thank you! It's always better to know what you've beeing doing wrong!
|
|
|
Post by Trillium on Sept 3, 2015 15:15:40 GMT
It's kinda off topic, but since that episode keeps popping up in the conversation: Annie's "I don't really like you" to Jack wasn't to get back at him. She lied when she said that. To understand that particular scene, you need to (re)read "Annie in the forest" (in the "Extra comics" section).
This is the important scene, in vol 2:_ Page 9 Page 10 Page 11 Annie wasn't trying to get revenge. She was trying to seduce him. By following very clumsily bad relationship advice from a tree elf. When it turned out that Jake was never really interested in the first place, she had to find some excuse quickly, because the truth was too humiliating. And this is how she managed make the guy she wanted a kiss from think she was a revenge hungry bitch. Hell, that makes sense. The worst thing is that I had read "Annie in the forest"; it just turns out I never related both scenes. Thank you for showing me how bad and oblivious I can sometimes be at reading this comic. No, seriously, thank you! It's always better to know what you've beeing doing wrong! Young love is ridiculously complicated.
|
|