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Post by Gotolei on Sept 2, 2015 7:59:43 GMT
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Post by gwydion on Sept 2, 2015 8:17:37 GMT
Well this is going to be like Gollum and Smeagol isn't it.
"See fire. he has his reasons."
"No he's does nots have his reason -esses. Fire Fire."
"fair point."
On another note. Wow Tony doesn't get a lot of love here does he. I personally have iffy feelings about his actions, but I can actually understand most of his cold behaviour as a cooping method from breaking down. That and Annie's emotional state might actually be her own doing since severing herself and fire elemental. I see Tony as more of a grey area since he is still cold without the use of Donald and the security of private surroundings but I find it entertaining how through a story a villain character can be made in to a more understandable character.
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Post by hellohello on Sept 2, 2015 8:22:35 GMT
I can understand and have compassion for someone and still think their stupid ass needs to work on things.
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Post by keef on Sept 2, 2015 8:27:28 GMT
Still waiting to find out. I hope so. But her body language is loud and clear.
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Post by jasmijn on Sept 2, 2015 8:30:22 GMT
Whether or not Tony is/was abusive toward Annie, he certainly has been neglectful. If you're a grown-ass person and you have a child, you can't do the things Tony, because you're hurting your child. Bleh.
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haspen
Full Member
Hat Kat
Posts: 131
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Post by haspen on Sept 2, 2015 8:45:58 GMT
I wonder if Fire Elemental is furious only at Tony or maybe at the Court as well.
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Post by vernes on Sept 2, 2015 9:02:42 GMT
Fire-Annie would do well here on this forum. And I agree! fwoosh
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 2, 2015 9:21:43 GMT
I wonder if Fire Elemental is furious only at Tony or maybe at the Court as well. Maybe the fire's also furious at Antimony. Or (D) all of the above.
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Post by rafk on Sept 2, 2015 9:25:07 GMT
Don't worry, I speak Fire Elemental. Speech bubbles for the last two panels read, in order: "... Seriously?" and "SERIOUSLY?!" I couldn't have put it better. Annie-in-denial won't get better until she comes to terms with the reality of Anthony, although this will also require the Fire Elemental to come to terms with not incinerating him.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Sept 2, 2015 9:37:08 GMT
You know, that's a great punchline to end the chapter on. So I can't help but notice that the chapter isn't over yet..
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Post by davidm on Sept 2, 2015 10:34:32 GMT
"Annie really is expressing similar things to what victims of *whispers* abuse *whispers* say about their families/significant others/etc" - Annie doing otherwise would be "pot calling kettle black". www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=823"You put many people in danger" Pretty clear that Annie is an abuser, and many of Annies friends are in abusive relationship with her. ;-) The biggest victim may be Jack, example she went out of way to cause emotional problems to revenge his previous spiderman issues that were not his fault. It is kind of funny how Annie and Dad have gender reversed the "emotionally abusive" husband and wife. Dad is the "ice queen" wife. Annie is the temper tantrum husband. Annie's "emotional abuse" of Jack might fit either. ... I know and get along with nearly all my 20+ closest neighbors... meanwhile I see others who can't get along with their next door neighbor over petty issues. Example, one neighbor had his willow tree branches hanging over in the way on neighbors property. So he just went and chopped the stuff over property line, and disposed of everything including turning bigger stuff into firewood. Guy on other side said "my wood, give firewood back to me". First guy "I did all the work, was your trees abusing my property, so I get wood". Second guy "I take you to court for $200,000 over the wood you stole". Still bitterness years later. Meanwhile the second guy has sitting rotting in his overgrown grass a few tonnes of uncut large branches from a later cutting down of trees from border with neighbor on other side.... been there for years, never cut up into firewood or used... he would be happy if I did that for him and took the wood. Petty revenge to get "great justice" can actually make things worse. The best way to solve problems I have seen is rather than argue with someone, you set up situation where you are "silent" in way that person can figure out he did wrong, then he argues with himself rather than argues against your "you are wrong". The person best to convince someone is himself, the trick is getting him to do so. I occasionally have issue, I have a sheep that strays and eats a small unimportant flower of neighbor, value less than $1. This can cause $50+ of aggravation from angry neighbor. Solution, spend $10 worth of time pulling out thistles/weeds in neighbors yard as "I am sorry", and never a problem for many years even if sheep a few more times eats a $1 flower. (basically sheep may sneak especially right before freezing when everything dies anyways and eat a bit of tips of leaves, etc, not big damage when they are also eating weeds). Finding ways to solve problems with neighbors is much simpler then what I see of 2 neighbors who hate each other and emotional abuse each other for years.
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Post by Elysium on Sept 2, 2015 10:42:58 GMT
and many of Annies friends are in abusive relationship with her. ;-) Who, besides Jack ?
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Post by davidm on Sept 2, 2015 10:55:50 GMT
and many of Annies friends are in abusive relationship with her. ;-) Who, besides Jack ? I quoted Jones, easy to read the whole firespike chapter. Annie's behavior trying to make up with her best friend could be if looked at wrong way the classic signs of an abusive bully stalker x-boyfriend if Annie was boyfriend and Kat was girlfriend. Meanwhile Kat was ice-queen emotional abuser like Anthony. When Annie met Mort she taught him how to emotionally abuse others. Then she emotionally abused Mort, who was only trying to help by giving blinker stone as requested. ;-) Meanwhile Team X-Forest creatures/Fairies says "what good friends" when Red and "Blue" abuse each other.... I've seen little kids, teens who squabble for sport, can go from friend to "emotional abuse" enemy to friend again in matter of hours, and they can learn and change.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 2, 2015 11:25:11 GMT
I know and get along with nearly all my 20+ closest neighbors... meanwhile I see others who can't get along with their next door neighbor over petty issues. Example, one neighbor had his willow tree branches hanging over in the way on neighbors property. So he just went and chopped the stuff over property line, and disposed of everything including turning bigger stuff into firewood. Guy on other side said "my wood, give firewood back to me". First guy "I did all the work, was your trees abusing my property, so I get wood". Second guy "I take you to court for $200,000 over the wood you stole". Still bitterness years later. Meanwhile the second guy has sitting rotting in his overgrown grass a few tonnes of uncut large branches from a later cutting down of trees from border with neighbor on other side.... been there for years, never cut up into firewood or used... he would be happy if I did that for him and took the wood. Petty revenge to get "great justice" can actually make things worse. The best way to solve problems I have seen is rather than argue with someone, you set up situation where you are "silent" in way that person can figure out he did wrong, then he argues with himself rather than argues against your "you are wrong". The person best to convince someone is himself, the trick is getting him to do so. I occasionally have issue, I have a sheep that strays and eats a small unimportant flower of neighbor, value less than $1. This can cause $50+ of aggravation from angry neighbor. Solution, spend $10 worth of time pulling out thistles/weeds in neighbors yard as "I am sorry", and never a problem for many years even if sheep a few more times eats a $1 flower. (basically sheep may sneak especially right before freezing when everything dies anyways and eat a bit of tips of leaves, etc, not big damage when they are also eating weeds). Old saying in New England: Good fences make good neighbors. That works out well since the principal crop is rocks. They still come out of the ground when plowed and get stacked on top of each other at the edge of the fields and the fences are now very high, so everyone gets along well. In colonial times when the fields were first cleared they were low enough to see/shoot over so there were still problems.
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Post by jda on Sept 2, 2015 11:29:10 GMT
JonesAnnie: You see? Because Reasons! Or You see? Because Science! *suddenly dies from a massive nuclear etheric rage explosion*
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Post by pxc on Sept 2, 2015 11:42:17 GMT
Without her fire Annie is as big of a dumbass as Tony. Fire Annie has fwooshed before, it does nothing. Not the most compelling page of this comic IMO. Just more waiting. Let's please finally get on with it.
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arzeik
Junior Member
Posts: 77
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Post by arzeik on Sept 2, 2015 11:49:07 GMT
Well, he indeed had his reasons. But - FWOOSH - those just weren't good enough reasons! ("Hmm my daughter may hate me, for I hate myself. I think the best choice is to dissapear from her life. Yup.")
Anyway, I don't want to be repetitive. There's something I've been wondering: is non-fire-Annie's excusing behaviour only directed to her father? Is fire-Annie's (understandable) anger only directed to him? I mean, I would say that the part of Annie that once decided to not forgive and try to get back at Jack was mainly the flame; I would say that the part of her that once decided to be cruel to Renard was mainly the flame, etc. Maybe in this case the reaction of fire-Annie is a heaalthier one, but without the other, more understanding and forgiving part, Annie would probably be quite a nightmare. I just hope they (she) reunite soon.
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madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
Posts: 232
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Post by madragoran on Sept 2, 2015 12:14:22 GMT
My reaction at reading the page was "WTF?" really loud. I am sorry Annie. So very sorry. I can only hope, you're going to find help. If I could I'd reach through the page and slap you. So it's better that I can't. You need someone qualified and patient and knowledgeable. All I can offer is anger and disbelief and a strong urge to slap some sense into you (which is wrong and bad and would achieve nothing).
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Post by speedwell on Sept 2, 2015 12:14:39 GMT
I quoted Jones, easy to read the whole firespike chapter. Annie's behavior trying to make up with her best friend could be if looked at wrong way the classic signs of an abusive bully stalker x-boyfriend if Annie was boyfriend and Kat was girlfriend. Meanwhile Kat was ice-queen emotional abuser like Anthony. When Annie met Mort she taught him how to emotionally abuse others. Then she emotionally abused Mort, who was only trying to help by giving blinker stone as requested. ;-) Meanwhile Team X-Forest creatures/Fairies says "what good friends" when Red and "Blue" abuse each other.... I've seen little kids, teens who squabble for sport, can go from friend to "emotional abuse" enemy to friend again in matter of hours, and they can learn and change. Most people who have brought up the abuse issue or pointed out Tony's toxic behavior didn't do it because they need to make Tony as evil as possible. I believe a lot of them have recognized patterns and actions as abusive because they've experienced them in real life. Annie has apologized to Jack, Mort (the blinker stone business), and Kat, and to many other people she hurt through her actions. She's a 14 (?) y-o child who makes mistakes and sometimes reacts in ways that hurt others - the comic has always underlined that communication is vital and that her actions do sometimes have negative consequences she needs to deal with. In the same way Zimmy's despair and subsequent toxic attempt to keep Gamma for herself has never been sugarcoated and should not be. Annie's behavior towards Jack has been drawn and written as weird and creepy, and readers saw that. The point is - yes it was toxic, and emotional manipulation is a big part of an abusive behavior. Which she stopped, because she understood it wasn't good. I know the "Ooh come on, everyone is abusive in Gunnerkrigg if you read in a certain way" stance is meant as a joke but to be honest after all the very personal and serious posts about abuse and how people affected by this issue recognized or did not recognize abuse in Tony's behaviour, I find that the joke reduces pages and pages of discussions into one big "silly overreaction". Thank you for making the point that Annie is a child. Children simply are not grownups. Mental maturity has a biophysical maturity component. Brains are simply not done developing until a person is ~25 years old, as a matter of fact. Yes, teenagers can be held morally responsible for many things, and their behavior can be wrong or right, but it's important to differentiate between the behavior of a developing person dealing with complicated, painful issues, and the behavior of an adult who should know better. Yes, it is right to characterise some of Annie's actions as abusive. No, it is not right to therefore characterise her as an abuser. Anthony is not a dependent child with a growing brain. He is fully responsible for his choices. I think it's also instructive to look at how Antimony and Anthony each handled their pain and grief. Antimony is essentially a loving person who makes mistakes and successfully reconciles with people she has harmed or has tried to harm, and learns vital lessons from the situation. Anthony runs away (he's known for it, ffs), acts like a tool when he returns, and blubbers theatrically about how unfair life is to him. EDIT: Review this: www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051 Then compare the recommended parenting strategy with how Ysengrin handled Annie. Shockingly on point. Shockingly.
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Post by Nepycros on Sept 2, 2015 12:33:35 GMT
Yeah, I think I'm closer to Team Donny than Team Annie here. I hesitate to throw around this word with all of its oft-debated connotations, but Annie really is expressing similar things to what victims of *whispers* abuse *whispers* say about their families/significant others/etc. I hope the elemental and she have a nice chat about these revelations in the coming pages. Holy cow, why do I always end up on this side? Well, whatever. It's not about Tony anymore, anyway. You say that Annie's expressing similar things to what victims of abuse say about abusers and such. But this is... really, just kiiiiiinda outside the bounds of what that entails. Work with me, but her emotions are contained in an entirely different vessel. Is how she's reacting really "compartmentalization", or is it the most she can muster in her current form?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 2, 2015 13:19:25 GMT
Anthony runs away (he's known for it, ffs), acts like a tool when he returns, and blubbers theatrically about how unfair life is to him. Also: "It was Surma." But after she died he didn't resume contact; I wonder if he is/was pushing some of the blame for his choices onto her... About that article: 1) If anyone ever figures out how to discuss consequences in an emotionally safe and easy way, please let me know. I'll write a book and get rich. 2) Taking an interest in kid's things is why an entire genre of parody games was invented for stress; only god knows how many teletubbies, wiggles, blues, and too many more to name have had to die horrible deaths on newgrounds alone...
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Post by intotheether on Sept 2, 2015 13:22:41 GMT
and many of Annies friends are in abusive relationship with her. ;-) Who, besides Jack ? This instance comes to mind. People tend to forget that Annie has some rather cruel moments as well. (Granted, that just makes her more fleshed out as a character to me, provided said moments are handled with grace, which Tom typically excels at).
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Post by ih8pkmn on Sept 2, 2015 13:25:03 GMT
Ooooh boy. Tom's stopped snarking in his commentary. That means that something big and possibly bad is coming.
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Post by pxc on Sept 2, 2015 13:29:52 GMT
Ooooh boy. Tom's stopped snarking in his commentary. That means that something big and possibly bad is coming. Not sure I follow. Tom's been plenty snarky when bad things were happening in-comic.
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Post by speedwell on Sept 2, 2015 13:41:43 GMT
Ooooh boy. Tom's stopped snarking in his commentary. That means that something big and possibly bad is coming. Gee, someone doused in alcohol is about to step next to an open flame. What could go wrong?
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Post by ctso74 on Sept 2, 2015 13:46:30 GMT
Yeah, I think I'm closer to Team Donny than Team Annie here. I hesitate to throw around this word with all of its oft-debated connotations, but Annie really is expressing similar things to what victims of *whispers* abuse *whispers* say about their families/significant others/etc. I hope the elemental and she have a nice chat about these revelations in the coming pages. I'm still withholding judgement on the whole abuse thing but if you want to avoid the loaded word I think it can be said that Antimony has been conditioned to accept this sort of treatment from her father. Reasonably certain Anthony is a dick, though. If anyone's interested I believe I can logically prove it using a number of appropriate definitions from urbandictionary. According to this, it seems Tony is a "Flaming Dirty $#!^%&" ... Wait. I think I forgot to carry the "Farting Gerbil".
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Post by mordekai on Sept 2, 2015 14:05:17 GMT
Fire Elemental: Fuck this! I'm going with Kat!
A week later...
Fire Robot Demigoddess Kat: WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!! YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN'T HIDE!!! WAHAHAHAWAHAHA!!! *Flaming cybergoddess flies above the Court shooting fireballs everywhere*
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elebenty
Junior Member
Better than bubble wrap.
Posts: 83
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Post by elebenty on Sept 2, 2015 14:12:39 GMT
Anybody interested in pondering the idea that, in a sense, that is also Surma who is enraged by Annie's statement? Because to me that's one of the most interesting things about this whole scene. I was thinking the same thing. And I'm glad FireAnnie isn't taking it so calmly. Mother knows best (or at least has more experience seeing through bs.) I wonder if Fire Elemental is furious only at Tony or maybe at the Court as well. Maybe the fire's also furious at Antimony. Or (D) all of the above. I'd say definitely D. I'd include the fake psychopomps, too, if they aren't court operatives. The person best to convince someone is himself, the trick is getting him to do so. I believe we're going to see her try. She'd be giving Annie the side eye if she could. I just hope they (she) reunite soon. Hopefully right after they iron out this little issue. I'm not sure they can until numb!Annie comes around.
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elebenty
Junior Member
Better than bubble wrap.
Posts: 83
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Post by elebenty on Sept 2, 2015 14:19:11 GMT
Coyote taught Annie how to manipulate the real world in her etheric form, I wonder if fire!Annie can practice until she's adept at leaving passive-aggressive notes all over the place. (Are scorch-marks passive-aggressive? No? Just aggressive?)
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 2, 2015 14:23:54 GMT
Pretty clear that Annie is an abuser, and many of Annies friends are in abusive relationship with her. ;-) You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. (Credit for edit goes to hellohello) Is how she's reacting really "compartmentalization", or is it the most she can muster in her current form? You make a very valid point here. However, I would argue that being physically split in half IS how this fantasy comic represents that Annie is compartmentalizing. Her whole comment when she cut herself was "I can't deal with [these emotions] right now", after all.
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