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Post by zimmyzims on Sept 16, 2013 9:27:30 GMT
On a side note, I like this type of page that occurs once a while in Gunnerkrigg. I mean the way tom has set up the page without frames to distinguish different moments, instead the objects in the moments continuing throughout the page. not sure how to explain this, but these pages are usually my favourites.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 16, 2013 10:04:52 GMT
I suppose now's as good a time as any to throw my theory into the ring: This Seed Bismuth is exactly who it says it is, and totally trustworthy to boot!
That "LIARLIARLIARLIAR" is just Coyote trying to confuse the issue. Notice that Coyote hasn't actually specified who the liar is?
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Post by snipertom on Sept 16, 2013 10:15:40 GMT
Honestly, I'm hoping I can interpret this as suspicious behavior, and that the Exposition Fairy isn't actually the Seed Bismuth, but some spirit that is trying to deceive Annie with easy answers. Maybe this mood whiplash will turn out to have been purposeful, to trick the reader for some bigger revelation later. In which case, I'll gladly eat my words. SCORE. Did I say, in the thread for two pages ago, that I'd be happy to eat my words? Because these words are DELICIOUS. I should be incorrect more often. I knew something felt off. I'm stoked that it was something in-world that was askew. Tom's a master storyteller. I'm struggling with an urge to gloat at anyone who was claiming that it made perfect sense for Ms. Seed to just pop in and lay down the Word like that. But really, I was making as many bad calls as anyone - I was all afraid and complainy because I foolishly feared that Tom was playing this straight! Tom = win  Oh man, I've been fooled so many times in the past (eg with Kat/Paz, among others) |
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Post by lordofpotatoes on Sept 16, 2013 10:19:38 GMT
Fooled again, damn, feels like I should bet against myself to win.
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Post by sidhekin on Sept 16, 2013 10:20:47 GMT
I suppose now's as good a time as any to throw my theory into the ring: This Seed Bismuth is exactly who it says it is, and totally trustworthy to boot! That "LIARLIARLIARLIAR" is just Coyote trying to confuse the issue. Notice that Coyote hasn't actually specified who the liar is? But ... if the SB is not lying ... and Coyote does not lie ... that leaves ... ... Annie as the "LIAR"? :-\ |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 11:16:16 GMT
Suddenly, Coyote's theme music starts playing in the background!
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Post by helicopter on Sept 16, 2013 12:19:15 GMT
Is Coyote actually "present" in this page, or is there just some mind manipulation going on that is causing his image to appear along with the suggestion that he is a liar?
Or is the SB the liar and Coyote is coming through with the warning?
EDIT: When I first saw the letters I thought they were an amino acid sequence...
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Post by arf on Sept 16, 2013 12:41:15 GMT
Notice how Coyote's ribbon grows more prominent? That, and the repetitive mantra 'liar' suggests he's about to intervene... like an express train!
(Hunting...? maybe SB is the Gilletie Roadrunner!?)
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Post by Marnath on Sept 16, 2013 12:56:01 GMT
Liar, indeed. The bridge was added some time after Coyote split the chasm. How would SB, stuck in these ruins, know about it? Is that Coyote coming to the rescue, or Coyote dropping the disguise? (I think the former) I have a more disturbing theory. He knows this being is a threat and is trying to warn Annie... but lacks the power to do more than shout at it from a distance. She might be in real trouble if this thing is more powerful than Coyote. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Sept 16, 2013 13:18:28 GMT
Liar, indeed. The bridge was added some time after Coyote split the chasm. How would SB, stuck in these ruins, know about it? Is that Coyote coming to the rescue, or Coyote dropping the disguise? (I think the former) I have a more disturbing theory. He knows this being is a threat and is trying to warn Annie... but lacks the power to do more than shout at it from a distance. She might be in real trouble if this thing is more powerful than Coyote. Scary thought indeed. |
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Ender
Junior Member
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Post by Ender on Sept 16, 2013 13:27:59 GMT
Heh. I admit I was wrong, and the people having the nagging feeling about it being bad story telling was right. It really wasn't given to us that easily. (I still think the court being grown that way wasn't a lie though)
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 16, 2013 13:35:16 GMT
(I still think the court being grown that way wasn't a lie though) The best lies have an element of the truth in them. Also, yay, I called it a couple days ago! Well, a lot of people did, but still. It's rare to guess one of Tom's plot twists. |
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Post by exdevlin on Sept 16, 2013 13:48:33 GMT
Look carefully next to Coyote's ribbon thing. Liar, indeed. The bridge was added some time after Coyote split the chasm. How would SB, stuck in these ruins, know about it? Is that Coyote coming to the rescue, or Coyote dropping the disguise? (I think the former) All of these things. Man, Tom totally had me at the last page. "You don't know how happy this makes me!" sounded so genuine in my head, but this page is definitely starting to... Hey, the SB refers to its brethren? Do all of your offspring count as brethren? Is this just a malicious being who wants to get into the Court because there are others like it? Maybe the seed grew a new seed and it wants to get back at it for revenge for leaving it alone over in the Forest for so long? Maybe it's another Forest Fairy who wants to pass its test by cheating and start going to classes at Court? I think I preferred to think of this thing as a fae-like being, not a wasp. :S Bugs creep me the eff out. |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 16, 2013 13:50:30 GMT
I suppose now's as good a time as any to throw my theory into the ring: This Seed Bismuth is exactly who it says it is, and totally trustworthy to boot! That "LIARLIARLIARLIAR" is just Coyote trying to confuse the issue. Notice that Coyote hasn't actually specified who the liar is? But ... if the SB is not lying ... and Coyote does not lie ... that leaves ... ... Annie as the "LIAR"? :-\ Or maybe Coyote just likes the sound of the word LIAR and doesn't mean anything more by it! Of course, if Annie hears him and thinks he's accusing someone of lying, well, that's not his fault, is it? |
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 16, 2013 13:53:28 GMT
Liar, indeed. The bridge was added some time after Coyote split the chasm. How would SB, stuck in these ruins, know about it? Is that Coyote coming to the rescue, or Coyote dropping the disguise? (I think the former) I have a more disturbing theory. He knows this being is a threat and is trying to warn Annie... but lacks the power to do more than shout at it from a distance. She might be in real trouble if this thing is more powerful than Coyote. On second thought, I would like to subscribe to this theory. Why would Coyote want to have Annie smuggle him across? He can go across to a diplomatic meeting whenever he feels like it, and cause mayhem then (which he has before). Furthermore, he has sworn not to directly harm the Court. Finally, why would Coyote be telling her that HE is a liar? The idea that Coyote's coming to save her fits better. However, whatever this is must be pretty powerful, because it's almost certainly managed not to fully show its true form even on the etherial plane. |
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quoodle
Full Member
Just a man on a planet
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Post by quoodle on Sept 16, 2013 14:04:39 GMT
Ok, whether this is the actual seed, or Coyote's knowledge of the seed - what strikes me is it refers to "my bretheren". So there are multiple seeds who consider themselves brothers? I always considered the seed to be singular.
Then, what if this wasn't painful - what type of choice is annie being asked? What would happen if she actually did this? Sounds dangerous and potentially really disruptive - even to the court. I would hope (and guess) she won't sneak it across the bridge.
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Post by csj on Sept 16, 2013 14:18:05 GMT
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Post by Per on Sept 16, 2013 14:20:17 GMT
Clearly Coyote is in the ether next door playing Liar's Dice, and he gets very excited and vocal during games.
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Post by The Anarch on Sept 16, 2013 14:28:41 GMT
Coyote doesn't lie, though. I've long wondered about that whole " Coyote doesn't lie" bit. |
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Post by ctso74 on Sept 16, 2013 14:32:34 GMT
Suddenly, Coyote's theme music starts playing in the background! I bet that it would be a dark and twisted version of Yakety Sax. Which would be awesome. I'm thinking, Coyote is about to make an entrance. Not to warn Annie though, but to cut our new friend off. If it is an insect totem, it could be ancient. Its half-truths could reveal a lot. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Sept 16, 2013 14:37:11 GMT
Coyote doesn't lie, though. I've long wondered about that whole " Coyote doesn't lie" bit. Wasn't it more "Coyote is not a liar" which is not exactly "Coyote doesn't lie". |
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 16, 2013 14:39:55 GMT
Coyote doesn't lie, though. I've long wondered about that whole " Coyote doesn't lie" bit. The 'trickster who technically can't lie' is a well established motif in literature. I would link to TVtropes, but I will not desecrate our forum. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Sept 16, 2013 14:42:57 GMT
Ok, whether this is the actual seed, or Coyote's knowledge of the seed - what strikes me is it refers to "my bretheren". So there are multiple seeds who consider themselves brothers? I always considered the seed to be singular. Hmm.... not necessarily. Brethren means "brothers" in a more political sense, brothers as "comrades" or "black brothers", so the SB (impostor) might also refer to the court and the people of the court, or to anyone that it considers to be its political or military ally. |
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Post by The Anarch on Sept 16, 2013 14:44:56 GMT
The 'trickster who technically can't lie' is a well established motif in literature. I would link to TVtropes, but I will not desecrate our forum. I'm well aware of that trope, as I'm sure most folks here are . . . the thing that has me wondering about him not being a liar is the fact that in the pages I linked there, he is lying. |
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Post by sabriel on Sept 16, 2013 15:44:08 GMT
I'm so relieved. This was such stilted storytelling that I didn't want to imagine it being anything other than an impostor.
I think Coyote has been here for a while. If you monitor the art style closely, Annie's scar only showed up in the last panel of the last page, and so Annie and the audience have been blind etherically until this point. He may be out hunting, but if Annie and Bud can use their powers to spy at long distances, why shouldn't he? And we all know he'd get a kick out of it. Look what he did as the moon! ;P
Until now he's managed to keep quiet, but I think maybe he's so titillated by Annie falling for it like a schmuck that he can't keep it to himself! I read it as him saying it giddily over and over again like when you're watching a TV show going "Nonononononono!"
I can't imagine he's actually trying to help Annie out, unless he's just trying to keep her in place for future screwing with Llwanellyn. I just think he finds her gullibleness hilarious.
(This opinion may be heavily influenced by the face that he looks like he's smiling because of the teeth and the way the ribbon curves)
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Post by zimmyzims on Sept 16, 2013 15:53:26 GMT
I'm so relieved. This was such stilted storytelling that I didn't want to imagine it being anything other than an impostor. I think Coyote has been here for a while. If you monitor the art style closely, Annie's scar only showed up in the last panel of the last page, and so Annie and the audience have been blind etherically until this point. He may be out hunting, but if Annie and Bud can use their powers to spy at long distances, why shouldn't he? And we all know he'd get a kick out of it. Look what he did as the moon! ;P Until now he's managed to keep quiet, but I think maybe he's so titillated by Annie falling for it like a schmuck that he can't keep it to himself! I read it as him saying it giddily over and over again like when you're watching a TV show going "Nonononononono!" I can't imagine he's actually trying to help Annie out, unless he's just trying to keep her in place for future screwing with Llwanellyn. I just think he finds her gullibleness hilarious. (This opinion may be heavily influenced by the face that he looks like he's smiling because of the teeth and the way the ribbon curves) Considering that Annie may be in a grave danger, I think it is fully plausible that Coyote is trying to help her out for whatever means. |
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Post by warrl on Sept 16, 2013 16:20:51 GMT
The 'trickster who technically can't lie' is a well established motif in literature. I would link to TVtropes, but I will not desecrate our forum. I'm well aware of that trope, as I'm sure most folks here are . . . the thing that has me wondering about him not being a liar is the fact that in the pages I linked there, he is lying. In those pages he is, in fact, Jolly Elfberry. So no lie. Of course, he is also Coyote. Nobody said that he always tells the complete truth. Think about how many named forms he has had over the centuries; it would take him hours to introduce himself if he always told the complete truth. |
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Post by sidhekin on Sept 16, 2013 16:22:18 GMT
The 'trickster who technically can't lie' is a well established motif in literature. I would link to TVtropes, but I will not desecrate our forum. I'm well aware of that trope, as I'm sure most folks here are . . . the thing that has me wondering about him not being a liar is the fact that in the pages I linked there, he is lying. He is? What lie(s) was he telling, then? Oh sure, he's misdirecting. Misleading. Which is dishonest. But lying? I mean, if he can get away with saying "I don't exist!" I'd think he'd get a pass on anything on those three pages. ;-) |
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Ender
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by Ender on Sept 16, 2013 16:44:55 GMT
So....I was thinking. Do you think the tictocs were grown along with the Court? And the Seed Bismuth uses it as a way of keeping an eye on the people in the Court?
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Post by stephen on Sept 16, 2013 16:47:00 GMT
Yeah, I think the thing is that Coyote doesn't lie, for the broadest most generous definition of "not lying" possible. As dishonest and untrustworthy as you can possibly be without lying.
On that example page: yeah, he did everything in his power to lead Eglamore to believe that he was just some random inappropriate Elf dude. He changed his appearance, and used an alias, and behaved sillily. But, note, he didn't introduce himself by saying "I am Jolly Elfsberry and am not Coyote", he said "I am Jolly Elfsberry and coyote sent me here to greet you". You can send yourself to do something, especially when you're a crazy multifaceted god. It's an akward way to phrase things, but not a lie. It's deceptive as hell, but not technically "a lie".
So, what good is it for someone to be "unable to lie" if they can still be deceptive, and they have near-infinite power to device? Just this: if he makes a very clearly worded, serious promise, like the one he made to Annie about her safety in the forest, you can take it as gospel. He won't do so very often (because, well, he's a trickster god, why would he want to be held to a promise?), but when he does you can believe him. You just have to remember his exact wording very carefully.
I seem to have forgotten the exact wording of Coyote's original promise to Annie. I probably wouldn't live very long in the Forest.
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