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Post by Starrylight on Sept 17, 2011 0:09:56 GMT
I have nothing important to add, but I just have to say that I love Annie's hair in this page. It's so long and flow-y. And I agree...the two of them (and Kat) would make an awesome platonic-friend-team.
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Post by paxjax123 on Sept 17, 2011 0:42:13 GMT
I was expecting a big fight and I'm glad I didn't get one.
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Post by Tierra Y Libertad on Sept 17, 2011 2:24:09 GMT
Platonic Friend Team is the way to go. Annie has more important things to worry about than having a sweetheart.
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 17, 2011 4:04:48 GMT
I couldn't shake the feeling that Jack hopes for a "shut-up kiss" the whole time of Jack's speech, by the way. Annie needs to frequent more human beings, as opposed to supernatural entities. Or, if we add your notion and mine right above it: normal folk goes over into set of something unusual faster than Annie get acquainted with them. Can't decide whether that's curious or disturbing. You know it would be just like Tom to do something like that. I doubt it - too straightforward as a tease: when Tom pulls something obvious, it's at least beautifully twisted. Something like "AnnieXJackXZimmy XShutit???" would be possible, but that already happened. I doubt if either of them wishes to include a third party in this particular conversation, but Jack is the more alert and paranoid of the two, possibly also the more sensitive -- maybe his "spider senses" are tingling. Aye. But then, that's Antimony next to him. Kat: Annie! I... (recovers breath) Annie: ...so, I mean... welcome to my world, Jack. Kat: oh, wait... <squee!> Annie: ( absolutely deadpan and business-like, pretending nothing unusual happens) Hi, Kat! I think since Jack understands nonmagical part better than me, he can help you a lot with that golem research. We just wizard-shop talked, he's sort of interested. Kat & Jack: (too stunned to stop smiling) ... Next scene, Kat comes looking for them. Timeline so far could have her just leaving Paz, and seeking reassuring company to regain her composure with. It's reassuring, all right... Page 818, panel 5, I doubt this was a love and kisses statement. It was a blatant provocation, though - she knows how headstrong Annie can be.
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Post by Refugee on Sept 17, 2011 18:52:04 GMT
Page 818, panel 5, I doubt this was a love and kisses statement. I just realized that this sequence is evidence that Jones doesn't, in fact, always know what she's doing. I agree with Coyote that Jones (and the rest of the Court) erred in keeping Annie's nature a secret from her. I don't think that's Jack's reasoning, though. I suspect that he simply regards her as something of a force of nature. The tornado cares not for consequence. In a similar way, Coyote doesn't count either, because he doesn't care. It is part of the nature of a Trickster to do what seems right or desirable or just plain old FUN in the moment, and roll with the consequences, whatever they may be. Neither of them count, because they're both powerful enough to cope with the consequences of their actions, and they're both old enough to know that predicting the future is a fool's game anyway. (Jones? Old? Very old, I suspect. Gandalf old, if not Coyote old.) [Edited to clarify the similarity between Jones and Coyote.)
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Post by shmargluff on Sept 18, 2011 4:07:59 GMT
I like your interpretation, Refugee.
Also, I imagined that Jack was saying "shut it" in response to Antimony smirking at him because he's afraid of Jones. We don't see this, but I bet she thinks it's funny that he's afraid of her.
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Post by smjjames on Sept 18, 2011 6:09:09 GMT
Coyote is supposedly ageless, or at least as old as when humans began dreaming up mythologies (tens of millenia, if not hundreds of millenia old). Coyote has also admitted that he has made mistakes, such as the glass eyed men (shadowmen), and the fact he forgot to put up a constellation for himself. He may be all powerful (at least a step or two below a primordial or creator type diety), but he certainly isn't absolutely perfect.
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Post by todd on Sept 18, 2011 22:27:21 GMT
I agree with Coyote that Jones (and the rest of the Court) erred in keeping Annie's nature a secret from her. Though, to be fair to them, how do you tell a young girl that she's responsible for her mother's death, especially when she's already grieving over it? There may not be a good solution for that one. If I was in Annie's place, I'd probably avoid romantic love entirely, not only so that I wouldn't go through the same thing that Surma (and her ancestors did), but to end the cycle and spare future generations the same problem.
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mjh
Full Member
Posts: 179
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Post by mjh on Sept 18, 2011 23:24:00 GMT
how do you tell a young girl that she's responsible for her mother's death They shouldn’t have told her anything like that at all since it isn’t true. Annie isn’t responsible for her mother’s death, even if her living was the cause of Surma’s death. For all we know Surma wanted to have a child so if anyone is responsible, it would be her. If I was in Annie's place, I'd probably avoid romantic love entirely, not only so that I wouldn't go through the same thing that Surma (and her ancestors did) You don’t get pregnant from romantic love. You don’t even need to get pregnant from sex unless there are no contraceptives in the GC universe (or abortion if it comes to that). Still you can get pregnant even if you are not in love. If Annie wants to stop the cycle (and it turns out there is no other way) she would have to decide against being a mother, not to forsake love.
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troll
Junior Member
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Post by troll on Sept 19, 2011 2:26:55 GMT
As a person that Coyote is aware of the existence of, Annie shouldn't rely on contraceptives. It strikes me as the kind of joke he'd find very, very funny.
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psykeout
Junior Member
I will construct a robotic posting device...
Posts: 56
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Post by psykeout on Sept 19, 2011 4:46:58 GMT
Ok. About to sound stupid, but whatever. I'm really lost. Could someone explain to me what just happened in these last few pages?
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Post by Max on Sept 19, 2011 6:30:47 GMT
Ok. About to sound stupid, but whatever. I'm really lost. Could someone explain to me what just happened in these last few pages? I'll try. Annie was trying to trick Jack into thinking she liked him only to let him down on page 928, hoping Jack would be crushed and she could get back at him for the incidents in Spring Heeled. Instead of being upset, Jack told that he was in fact relieved because he was really in love with Zimmy (whether or not he is serious is up for debate). Jack gets Annie to confess that she was only leading him on to get revenge, and he seems hurt that she would want to punish him for something he couldn't control. Annie tries to pass this off as a temporary bout of anger, but Jack says that it's something more than that. Having been called out, Annie apologizes for real, and Jack forgives her. Don't worry about feeling stupid; there have been times I have been confused when everyone else on the forum seemed to get what was going on.
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 19, 2011 11:01:35 GMT
I just realized that this sequence is evidence that Jones doesn't, in fact, always know what she's doing. I agree with Coyote that Jones (and the rest of the Court) erred in keeping Annie's nature a secret from her. Maybe, but until we have any idea what she really tries to achieve guesses as to results are kind of meaningless. (Jones? Old? Very old, I suspect. Gandalf old, if not Coyote old.) The difference being?.. Don't worry about feeling stupid; there have been times I have been confused when everyone else on the forum seemed to get what was going on. And even then, the key words are "seemed to get". It's Gunnerkrigg Court, after all. Almost everything will get twisted beyond prediction, so just have fun.
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Post by smjjames on Sept 19, 2011 17:00:16 GMT
@tb: The difference being that Coyote is suppousedly ageless, while Gandalf is thousands, to tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of years old. I don't know how old Gandalf is suppoused to be, but since he was around in the early days, very ancient.
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Post by todd on Sept 19, 2011 22:17:43 GMT
@tb: The difference being that Coyote is suppousedly ageless, while Gandalf is thousands, to tends of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of years old. I don't know how old Gandalf is suppoused to be, but since he was around in the early days, very ancient. According to Tolkien (in some writings published after his death), Gandalf was one of the Maiar, a set of minor angel-like beings sent to look after the world after God created it (there were two sets: the Valar and the Maiar. The Valar were the more powerful, and were mistaken for gods by humans in the early days of Middle-earth). That would make him older than Middle-earth itself. (He was sent to Middle-earth, along with a few other Maiar, including Saruman, by the Valar to encourage the people of Middle-earth in their war wtih Sauron, but only to provide moral support and advice, not to dominate or rule over them - which condition Saruman broke after setting himself up in Isengard - approximately two thousand years before the events of "The Lord of the Rings" took place.)
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Post by Refugee on Sept 20, 2011 4:32:52 GMT
@tb: The difference being that Coyote is suppousedly ageless, while Gandalf is thousands, to tends of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of years old. ... According to Tolkien (in some writings published after his death), Gandalf was one of the Maiar, a set of minor angel-like beings sent to look after the world after God created it . Ah, smjjames got my intent; I didn't know Gandalf was quite that old. Still: like different classes of infinity, I meant to imply different classes of agelessness, or at least the difference between extreme age and agelessness.
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Post by rainofsteel on Sept 21, 2011 2:18:26 GMT
There may not be a good solution for that one. If I was in Annie's place, I'd probably avoid romantic love entirely, not only so that I wouldn't go through the same thing that Surma (and her ancestors did), but to end the cycle and spare future generations the same problem. Annie can't possibly be the first of her kind to feel these conflicted issues, and yet her line is still here. I am willing to bet there may be some type of overwhelming urge regarding the situation later on.
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Post by Refugee on Sept 21, 2011 3:37:02 GMT
If I was in Annie's place, I'd probably avoid romantic love entirely, not only so that I wouldn't go through the same thing that Surma (and her ancestors did), but to end the cycle and spare future generations the same problem. Annie can't possibly be the first of her kind to feel these conflicted issues, and yet her line is still here. Exactly. Besides, I think it would be terribly selfish to say, no, this bright life ends with me, I will be the last one to know its joy and sadness. Ysengrin did not go so far as to say Surma had no regrets, but it's clear that even he believed she thought that Annie's life was a fair trade for her own. I suspect that part of this story will be the hunt for a way to break the chain of death without losing the spark.
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Post by eightyfour on Sept 21, 2011 6:38:20 GMT
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Post by todd on Sept 21, 2011 12:41:48 GMT
Yes, it might be selfish to end the line there and cut off further descendants. But the current system still has some serious drawbacks. One that stands out: as a result of the cycle, Surma was bedridden and confined to hospital all throughout Annie's childhood, ensuring that she grew up with the Guides rather than other children her age for company - and that led to some serious problems when she came to the Court. And I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't the first in that line who had those problems, either (though the younger Surma didn't show as much of that in "Ties" - if anything, Anthony was the one who came across as a loner with something unnatural about him).
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Sept 21, 2011 16:51:48 GMT
@tb: The difference being that Coyote is suppousedly ageless, while Gandalf is thousands, to tends of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of years old. I don't know how old Gandalf is suppoused to be, but since he was around in the early days, very ancient. According to Tolkien (in some writings published after his death), Gandalf was one of the Maiar, a set of minor angel-like beings sent to look after the world after God created it (there were two sets: the Valar and the Maiar. The Valar were the more powerful, and were mistaken for gods by humans in the early days of Middle-earth). That would make him older than Middle-earth itself. (He was sent to Middle-earth, along with a few other Maiar, including Saruman, by the Valar to encourage the people of Middle-earth in their war wtih Sauron, but only to provide moral support and advice, not to dominate or rule over them - which condition Saruman broke after setting himself up in Isengard - approximately two thousand years before the events of "The Lord of the Rings" took place.) Yarp. All the Balrogs(though only one shows up in the trilogy, the background has far more) were Maiar too I believe? They are corrupted Maiar that came to middle-earth when they weren't supposed to, along with Melkor, in a bid to have it for themselves. Melkor is actually a Valar, and Sauron was a Maiar that came along with him as a follower(until Melkor got his ass kicked). The physical form of a Maiar and Valar are flexible.. to a point. Eventually Sauron and Melkor did something that got them trapped into a single form(I forget what, but it has to do with them being evil jerkfaces). This rule goes for Gandalf as well, but his physical form was picked for him by the god analog of the setting. That of a feeble old man. This is so he, and the other wizards sent as well, could not simply overpower middle earth. As an angel, Gandalf actually has a lot more power than we ever get to see. He's not allowed to use it. Even when he gets sent back with permission to use more(since, you know, Sauruman is running amok and all the other wizards have up abandoned their duty in other ways), he's probably not going on full. All this actually makes Gandalf's victory over the Balrog(yes he won, he killed it, but then he was stuck on a mountain top in the middle of winter) all the more amazing. They are the same class of being, but Gandalf is purposefully confined to a meek form. It's also Why Gandalf doesn't just strut up to the flaming eye and poke it blind. Sauron is also a Vaiar.. though a corrupted one. There is every chance he would have lost. Then middle earth losses a powerful ally. Just some lore for LotR fans. Tolkien wrote a lot more than was in that trilogy. [Please note, when I say same class of being, all Valar and Maiar are individuals and not necessarily equal. Sauron was very clever and dangerous despite being 'only' a Maiar. The Maiar that became Balrogs, while certainly a mortal threat to another Maiar, are still rather chump dupe tier when you compare them. Gandalf ended up blowing past every expectation he had of himself when he was first sent on his mission. He actually thought he would be useless. He begged to have someone more worthy go in his place. He was one of the weakest Maiar. Yet he accomplished the most through wisdom and courage where his more powerful brothers became corrupted and fell from grace.]
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Post by todd on Sept 21, 2011 22:31:43 GMT
Eventually Sauron and Melkor did something that got them trapped into a single form(I forget what, but it has to do with them being evil jerkfaces). In Sauron's case, he flattered his way into the court of Ar-Pharazon, the last King of Numenor (a mighty island kingdom to the west of Middle-earth, and Tolkien's counterpart to Atlantis), and persuaded him to send a fleet to the Undying Lands and conquer it (something which Ar-Pharazon and most of his subjects had been wanting to do for a long time; Sauron just gave them the last nudge they needed). When Numenor was sunk in return for this act of presumption (by God Himself; the Valar realized that this situation was out of their hands), Sauron was caught in the middle of the catastrophe (and right in the middle of a big gloat - he'd expected some form of divine punishment to befall the Numenoreans, but underestimated the scale), and while he was able to escape and return to Mordor, it was at the permanent cost of his ability to take on a fair and suave appearance. Thereafter, all his forms were terrifying and nightmarish (though the notion of Sauron as a disembodied eye is an invention of the movie's).
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