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Post by Yin on Nov 24, 2010 9:07:18 GMT
Well?
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 10:41:20 GMT
I'll take a fourth option.
Behavior is a complex thing, and several different factors contributed to this situation exploding. It's just way too simplistic to say "his fault/her fault" without considering everything else that led up to the situation in the first place.
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Post by todd on Nov 24, 2010 11:38:06 GMT
It's tempting to blame much of this on the Court. They find out that Coyote is planning to give Reynardine some of his powers, and the only solution to that problem is to trick Reynardine into coming into their power and become a prisoner - just as the only solution they could think of (or would allow themselves to think of) for an earlier problem with the Wood was to murder Jeanne and turn her into a guardian of the Annan Waters. Could even one of them have displayed enough imagination to find other ways of handling the problem of the forest that didn't involve violence and deception? (Except that such a suggestion would have been rejected with a tone of "Negotiate with those wild beasts? Never! We'll slaughter the entire forest first before degrade ourselves to that level!")
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 24, 2010 11:42:59 GMT
Sometimes when two people get mad at each other they say things that can't be taken back. Things never go back to the way they were before.
Paradoxically, sometimes when both of those people go so far over the line that they have trouble even pretending they were in the right then it is much easier to sincerely apologize to each other. Things still don't go back to the way they were before but instead they become closer friends than ever.
I'm thinking that's what will eventually happen here.
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Post by Rex on Nov 24, 2010 16:38:02 GMT
A complete lack of respect and tact on both ends, especially with them specifically targeting the others' vulnerable points. This relationship is going to take a while to mend, but as imaginary friend put it, it'll likely be better than it is now. I guess you could think of it as a castle built on sand collapsing only for the new one to be built on solid bedrock.
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Post by legion on Nov 24, 2010 17:31:27 GMT
Needs at least two people for an argument~
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Post by paxjax123 on Nov 24, 2010 17:34:33 GMT
I think Annie is in the wrong here. She is forcing him to listen to this, while she could have just walked away.
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Post by damilo on Nov 24, 2010 18:03:49 GMT
While Rey was being a total asshat, Annie's reaction is extremely uncalled for. I don't know how their relationship is going to continue from this point on. She should've just commanded him to shut up for the rest of the summer until she got back to school. This would probably cause him to think about how what he said was not something you should say to someone and maybe he'd learn a lesson out of it, but now instead of one person regretting what he said, it's two people who are going to regret what they said but with no possible way to apologize for what happened.
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Post by satanicpuppy on Nov 24, 2010 19:21:30 GMT
While Rey was being a total asshat, Annie's reaction is extremely uncalled for. I don't know how their relationship is going to continue from this point on. She should've just commanded him to shut up for the rest of the summer until she got back to school. This would probably cause him to think about how what he said was not something you should say to someone and maybe he'd learn a lesson out of it, but now instead of one person regretting what he said, it's two people who are going to regret what they said but with no possible way to apologize for what happened. What I keep thinking is: Who thought this was a healthy relationship before she blew up at him? He's an immortal spirit living out a fixation with a dead woman vicariously through her daughter. And she's got him locked in a teddy bear, completely under her control! The fact that she's abusing it here only outlines the fact that he's been enslaved almost since he was introduced. There is nothing healthy here. Having a huge shakeup is the only possible way things could get better. And things getting better is predicated on two things happening: Rey getting over Surma enough to appreciate Annie for who she actually is, and Rey being freed from Annie's control. |
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Post by Mylian on Nov 24, 2010 21:19:05 GMT
A complete lack of respect and tact on both ends, especially with them specifically targeting the others' vulnerable points. This relationship is going to take a while to mend, but as imaginary friend put it, it'll likely be better than it is now. I guess you could think of it as a castle built on sand collapsing only for the new one to be built on solid bedrock. "Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built it all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of England." |
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Post by christopher on Nov 25, 2010 8:48:10 GMT
Both went too far, but Annie is in the further wrong by breaking a promise and being actively cruel.
So Option 2.
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Post by jayne on Nov 25, 2010 15:49:14 GMT
In a range of meanness... 1 being really nice and 10 being really nasty....
Say Annie is normally a 3, and Rey is normally a 7.... but right now both are being around 8 to each other.
Is it worse that Annie is acting the same as Rey?
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Post by TBeholder on Nov 25, 2010 16:04:29 GMT
I'll take a fourth option. Behavior is a complex thing, and several different factors contributed to this situation exploding. It's just way too simplistic to say "his fault/her fault" without considering everything else that led up to the situation in the first place. Uh, "went too far" / "in the wrong" or even "his fault/her fault" doesn't automatically imply ability to avoid this. |
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 26, 2010 1:35:33 GMT
In a range of meanness... 1 being really nice and 10 being really nasty.... Say Annie is normally a 3, and Rey is normally a 7.... but right now both are being around 8 to each other. Is it worse that Annie is acting the same as Rey? I think she's acting worse than Rey ever has, unless you're counting his murder attempt or what he did before the events of the comic. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 26, 2010 5:43:16 GMT
In a range of meanness... 1 being really nice and 10 being really nasty.... Say Annie is normally a 3, and Rey is normally a 7.... but right now both are being around 8 to each other. Is it worse that Annie is acting the same as Rey? I think she's acting worse than Rey ever has, unless you're counting his murder attempt or what he did before the events of the comic. He just said her father tricked her mother into marrying him, was unable to feel anything but disdain, and was somehow responsible for her mother's death because he was unable to save her. Annie said her mother never loved him. I think Annie's actions seem worse because she's usually nicer than Rey. |
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Chrome
Full Member
The Shiny One
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Post by Chrome on Nov 26, 2010 5:48:58 GMT
I think Annie went too far. Remember, she started on this whole tirade about Rey and Surma because he was coming down on her hard for copying off Kat's homework, rather than working the problems out herself. The girl's totally capable of it, and yet somehow feels so insecure about that ability, despite problem-solving and mediating at a near adult level in her adventures, that she has to copy off her academically gifted friend's work. That's....not right. I think Rey was completely in the right to say "Wait, this is not right, and you are not going to get away with it." He realized he couldn't reason with Annie the normal way: her behavior wasn't reasonable. So he, being the cantankerous trapped demon in a teddy bear that he is, went for something with some more burn. He just didn't see how far off rationality Annie was, or how intensely she was willing to defend her choice....to where she jumped past her promise to Anja and Kat, AND her own normally honorable nature to tell him. Frankly, she needs to learn that a) what she was doing in the first place isn't exactly defensible, let alone has the moral high ground, while it's practical from her standpoint, and b) there are consequences for losing it. She clearly keeps control most times, so losing it is hard. But seeing actual consequences from a direct misunderstanding (see: Mort, and the fallout) has made her aware she overstepped it. She here, doesn't realize her actions (the copying, etc), have actual consequences that could be a real problem for her. Rey does. Pretty soon she's going to be seeing the results of both what she just said to him, her behavior with the homework. (I doubt Court teachers are such blithering idiots that they don't notice the eerie similarity between Annie's and Kat's homework, when they KNOW Annie isn't a technical geek...? Hellooo, I'm surprised SOMEBODY didn't figure it out and whack her butt into detention for it already.) Either way, Fire Head is going to get herself schooled, from several directions, if she doesn't stop to think about the problem, and resolve it. If that means she admits she needs help academically, or that she really has to watch what she says around Reynardine, so be it. It's probably time she gets her ego taken down a few pegs: dealing with ghosts, solving major problems, saving people by just being there....yeah. Time to remind her she's still a kid.  |
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Post by Elaienar on Nov 26, 2010 6:21:37 GMT
I think she's acting worse than Rey ever has, unless you're counting his murder attempt or what he did before the events of the comic. He just said her father tricked her mother into marrying him, was unable to feel anything but disdain, and was somehow responsible for her mother's death because he was unable to save her. Annie said her mother never loved him. I think Annie's actions seem worse because she's usually nicer than Rey. Agree. There's also the fact, though, that Antimony seems to be deliberately trying to hurt Renard, while his criticisms of her father probably weren't intended to drive her to face-stabbing rage. On the other hand, it's hard to believe that the subject of Anthony has never come up between them before, and he'd have to be pretty dumb not to notice that Antimony doesn't like people criticising her father. And he's not dumb ... so presumably he knew that what he was saying about Anthony would hurt and anger Antimony, and he said it anyway. |
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 26, 2010 6:42:34 GMT
I think she's acting worse than Rey ever has, unless you're counting his murder attempt or what he did before the events of the comic. He just said her father tricked her mother into marrying him, was unable to feel anything but disdain, and was somehow responsible for her mother's death because he was unable to save her. Annie said her mother never loved him. I think Annie's actions seem worse because she's usually nicer than Rey. You're leaving out the part where Annie used her control over Rey to force him to repeat the fact that her mother never loved him, and to prevent him from withdrawing from the conversation. Had she just dropped the drama bomb and then told him to shut up and let him stew, I could see an argument for them being equally mean to each other, but as it stands Annie has gone quite a bit further than Rey has. Edit: she also implied that Rey was unlovable |
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monte
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by monte on Nov 26, 2010 7:38:42 GMT
I think she's acting worse than Rey ever has, unless you're counting his murder attempt or what he did before the events of the comic. He just said her father tricked her mother into marrying him, was unable to feel anything but disdain, and was somehow responsible for her mother's death because he was unable to save her. Annie said her mother never loved him. I think Annie's actions seem worse because she's usually nicer than Rey. Really I think a key difference between the two of them is there intent. When it comes down to it, Rey likely never actually meant to hurt Annie; he doesn't fully realize how much annie cares about her father. But people do say stupid things when they are frustrated and that can lead them to being very insensitive when they don't realize how strongly the other person may feel about the subject (the subject of Anthony does not come up often). In this case Rey's not only upset about loosing Surma to Anthony, but how Annie is turning out under his parenting (what with her poor studies and all). Rey can't lie to annie which means what he says is what he really believes and people don't come to believe something without a reason. When it comes down to it, what reason does Rey have to think better of Anthony; He would not be the first to have said that Anthony was a cold and distant person. And one thing that really doesn't score him any points is how he has disappeared at a time when Annie doesn't have anyone else; frankly i think a lot of people are wondering how Anthony could leave Annie alone at this time in her young life... honestly, With Thanksgiving just running by, at got the really sad image in my head of Annie being all alone for the holidays (only thing that perked me up being the image of Annie spending the holiday's with the Dolans and Eglamore). Rey's not trying to hurt Annie so much as he is trying to make her wake up and smell the coffee; though he is letting is frustrations and ignorance(as in him not realizing there might be more to Anthony than he knows and that Annie has had a good relationship with her father) let him go too far and being an insensitive jerk... what Rey probably deserved was a good smack and being ordered to shut the hell up Annie in contrast, while she is trying to tell Rey the truth is doing it for very different reasons. Unlike Rey she actually IS out to deal pain. she KNOWS how Rey feels about Surma and should understand how much this will hurt him. Hell she's not just saying Surma didn't love but even implying that she could never even like him by saying he's unlovable. All that love she showed him was nothing more than a way to imprison him for the rest of his life for no other reason than the court's paranoia... The glee we see in her face as Rey goes through obvious pain is enough to tell us that she isn't trying to tell him the truth for his sake, but just to hurt him... She won't even let him hide. All in all she couldn't be more cruel to him at this moment. on that scale of 1-10, i would say that Annie is pulling a full 10 at the moment On the other hand, it's hard to believe that the subject of Anthony has never come up between them before, and he'd have to be pretty dumb not to notice that Antimony doesn't like people criticising her father. And he's not dumb ... so presumably he knew that what he was saying about Anthony would hurt and anger Antimony, and he said it anyway. I really don't think we should jump to the conclusion that they have spoken about Anthony before. Anthony is such a touchy subject for Annie that Tom WOULD have shown such a conversation if it did come up. When it comes down to it, while Annie has gotten mad at those speaking poorly of her father, but the subject does not come up very often in the comic |
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Post by scalesandfins on Nov 26, 2010 11:16:11 GMT
Rey didn't deserve it, but he definitely set it off. You don't escalate an argument about homework with your 13 year old sorta-stepkid into YOUR MOMMY DIED BECAUSE YOUR DADDY DIDN'T LOVE HER, AND HE DOESN'T LOVE YOU EITHER, OR YOU WOULDN'T BE STUCK HERE WITH ME without expecting a major emotional reaction. Especially if it's true, and the kid hasn't come to terms with it (which Annie, wrt her Dad abandoning her, has not.)
Yes, Annie was out for blood. That is a chilling thing to see, she's making the most unnerving face. Rey hit her hard in a place that hurts too much for her to wrap her head around, and she's lashing out: maybe destroying the messenger means it won't have to be true. And honestly, she is still 13. Most tweens don't have absolute power over their legal guardians, but if they did, the the rage-fueled sadism trip Annie put on Rey would probably be a common enough response to, "I can't believe my mom's asshole ex-boyfriend actually said that to my face," even if they said something less devastating than, "your father is neglecting you because he doesn't love you."
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Post by todd on Nov 26, 2010 12:02:27 GMT
(I doubt Court teachers are such blithering idiots that they don't notice the eerie similarity between Annie's and Kat's homework, when they KNOW Annie isn't a technical geek...? Hellooo, I'm surprised SOMEBODY didn't figure it out and whack her butt into detention for it already.) Maybe because they're uneasily aware, deep down inside, that they're guilty of far worse things than copying someone's answers themselves? (Though if that was the case, the Court would be unable to deliver detention to anyone - not to mention that I assume that most of the Court teachers shrug off their various unethical schemes directed at Gillitie Wood as all right for great seekers of knowledge to perform, even if they were wrong for ordinary people.) |
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 26, 2010 14:52:00 GMT
Its an argument. People have different ways of handling anger. I usually just take a very long walk and simmer for an hour. Annie seems the type to bottle it up and bottle it up until she explodes. Reynardine was saying some very mean thigns and got stomped on in return.
lets go over this conversation so far.
Rey:you are stealing homework!
Annie: what are you my dad? (stupid thing to say. after all, Rey is right.)
Rey: Your dad was a terrible father who never loved your mother. You mother always loved me more. (this is incredibly cruel, and Annie knows its not true. So naturally...)
Annie: actually the court ordered her to seduce you, and mom never loved you. Admit it. Dad loved mom so shut up. (Now remember, most of you wanted her to tell him anyway. would there be a way for that to happen that wouldn't be cruel? I think that we are only dissapointed in Annie because she comes across as a sadist.)
Basically, Rey said that Annie's parents never loved each other, and that Anthony must have tricked her, and Annie retorted by saying that Surma never loved Rey. Both are pretty much equal in loserness, Annie just has control over reynard and proof. It feels like a kick the puppy move.
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Post by jayne on Nov 26, 2010 15:06:39 GMT
He just said her father tricked her mother into marrying him, was unable to feel anything but disdain, and was somehow responsible for her mother's death because he was unable to save her. Annie said her mother never loved him. I think Annie's actions seem worse because she's usually nicer than Rey. You're leaving out the part where Annie used her control over Rey to force him to repeat the fact that her mother never loved him, and to prevent him from withdrawing from the conversation. Had she just dropped the drama bomb and then told him to shut up and let him stew, I could see an argument for them being equally mean to each other, but as it stands Annie has gone quite a bit further than Rey has. Edit: she also implied that Rey was unlovable Making him stay and repeat what she said is the same thing anyone else having an argument does. She's just guaranteed to be effective because of her control. Most people can't turn into a doll to evade an argument, they'd just leave the room and sometimes the other person follows them to continue the argument. |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 26, 2010 20:24:42 GMT
You're leaving out the part where Annie used her control over Rey to force him to repeat the fact that her mother never loved him, Annie can't make Rey say anything he doesn't want to. I think Annie went too far. Remember, she started on this whole tirade about Rey and Surma because he was coming down on her hard for copying off Kat's homework, rather than working the problems out herself. No, she started on this tirade because her retort "You're not my father!" inspired Rey to slag on Tony for a full page. Rey didn't mention homework once during that little conversation derail. |
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 26, 2010 20:37:17 GMT
You're leaving out the part where Annie used her control over Rey to force him to repeat the fact that her mother never loved him, and to prevent him from withdrawing from the conversation. Had she just dropped the drama bomb and then told him to shut up and let him stew, I could see an argument for them being equally mean to each other, but as it stands Annie has gone quite a bit further than Rey has. Edit: she also implied that Rey was unlovable Making him stay and repeat what she said is the same thing anyone else having an argument does. She's just guaranteed to be effective because of her control. Most people can't turn into a doll to evade an argument, they'd just leave the room and sometimes the other person follows them to continue the argument. In my experience, if someone storms off after an argument as heated as this one, usually it is because the other person isn't trying to evade the argument so much as to avoid resorting to physical violence. I was honestly expecting Rey to get a lot more angry than he did when she kept abusing him. But more to the point, it is her use of her control here that really makes her actions worse than his. Most people don't have such absolute control over the other party that they can simply force them to stay, keep listening, and acknowledge that the other person is right. Her doing that here is an abuse of power, and the essential unfairness of it is what I mostly object to. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 26, 2010 20:48:06 GMT
Making him stay and repeat what she said is the same thing anyone else having an argument does. She's just guaranteed to be effective because of her control. Most people can't turn into a doll to evade an argument, they'd just leave the room and sometimes the other person follows them to continue the argument. In my experience, if someone storms off after an argument as heated as this one, usually it is because the other person isn't trying to evade the argument so much as to avoid resorting to physical violence. I was honestly expecting Rey to get a lot more angry than he did when she kept abusing him. But more to the point, it is her use of her control here that really makes her actions worse than his. Most people don't have such absolute control over the other party that they can simply force them to stay, keep listening, and acknowledge that the other person is right. Her doing that here is an abuse of power, and the essential unfairness of it is what I mostly object to. I've only had one argument that became physical and that ended with me laughing because she couldn't hit me. She just had to give up eventually. Since Rey can't harm Annie..."I can't do anything without her permission" that can't be a reason for him to try to get out of the argument. As for her control, you can't forget she acquired that control when he tried to kill her. Instead of being imprisoned for attempted murder, he's had a pleasant life with his intended victim. This argument isn't as bad as imprisonment, is it? That wouldn't have been the better choice, right? Even though this choice means a 13 year old can force you to stay and finish an argument? |
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 26, 2010 21:09:25 GMT
In my experience, if someone storms off after an argument as heated as this one, usually it is because the other person isn't trying to evade the argument so much as to avoid resorting to physical violence. I was honestly expecting Rey to get a lot more angry than he did when she kept abusing him. But more to the point, it is her use of her control here that really makes her actions worse than his. Most people don't have such absolute control over the other party that they can simply force them to stay, keep listening, and acknowledge that the other person is right. Her doing that here is an abuse of power, and the essential unfairness of it is what I mostly object to. I've only had one argument that became physical and that ended with me laughing because she couldn't hit me. She just had to give up eventually. Since Rey can't harm Annie..."I can't do anything without her permission" that can't be a reason for him to try to get out of the argument. As for her control, you can't forget she acquired that control when he tried to kill her. Instead of being imprisoned for attempted murder, he's had a pleasant life with his intended victim. This argument isn't as bad as imprisonment, is it? That wouldn't have been the better choice, right? Even though this choice means a 13 year old can force you to stay and finish an argument? How she got the power has no bearing on how she is now using it. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 26, 2010 21:25:24 GMT
I've only had one argument that became physical and that ended with me laughing because she couldn't hit me. She just had to give up eventually. Since Rey can't harm Annie..."I can't do anything without her permission" that can't be a reason for him to try to get out of the argument. As for her control, you can't forget she acquired that control when he tried to kill her. Instead of being imprisoned for attempted murder, he's had a pleasant life with his intended victim. This argument isn't as bad as imprisonment, is it? That wouldn't have been the better choice, right? Even though this choice means a 13 year old can force you to stay and finish an argument? How she got the power has no bearing on how she is now using it. So the 13 year old girl is being too rough by making him stay and finish an argument? If you got absolute power over someone because they tried to kill you, what would you do with that power? |
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 26, 2010 21:44:48 GMT
How she got the power has no bearing on how she is now using it. So the 13 year old girl is being too rough by making him stay and finish an argument? If you got absolute power over someone because they tried to kill you, what would you do with that power? It's not even an argument anymore, she's just doing this to punish him for his previous statements. So yes, she is going too far by doing this. Furthermore no, I wouldn't abuse my absolute control over someone who tried to kill me one time in the past but has since made up for it on numerous occasions. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 26, 2010 21:56:52 GMT
So the 13 year old girl is being too rough by making him stay and finish an argument? If you got absolute power over someone because they tried to kill you, what would you do with that power? It's not even an argument anymore, she's just doing this to punish him for his previous statements. So yes, she is going too far by doing this. Furthermore no, I wouldn't abuse my absolute control over someone who tried to kill me one time in the past but has since made up for it on numerous occasions. They're still arguing, not really "make a logical point" arguing, more like "I'm angry with you" arguing. Would you abuse your absolute power if they hadn't made up for it? Its just odd that you say you wouldn't abuse Rey because he's atoned for his transgressions. If he hadn't atoned, is he fair game for abuse? He tried to kill you, what would you do? Would it include being forced to stay and finish an argument or would it be worse? |
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