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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 26, 2010 22:33:00 GMT
Most people don't have such absolute control over the other party that they can simply force them to stay, keep listening, and acknowledge that the other person is right. Her doing that here is an abuse of power, and the essential unfairness of it is what I mostly object to. Annie is forcing Rey to stay, but she has no more power to make him acknowledge that she's right than, say, Eglamore does.
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Post by todd on Nov 26, 2010 23:25:14 GMT
While most of the blame is Annie's (if she had been doing her homework in the first place, this quarrel wouldn't have happened), Reynardine deserves part of the blame for letting his jealousy towards Anthony get the better of him. He should have kept the argument on topic rather than veering off into criticism of Anthony the moment Annie told him to stop acting as if he was her father.
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Post by Mylian on Nov 27, 2010 0:27:18 GMT
Most people don't have such absolute control over the other party that they can simply force them to stay, keep listening, and acknowledge that the other person is right. Her doing that here is an abuse of power, and the essential unfairness of it is what I mostly object to. Annie is forcing Rey to stay, but she has no more power to make him acknowledge that she's right than, say, Eglamore does. You're wrong there. Annie said it clearly enough, Rey has to tell her the truth if she says so. She doesn't have the power to make him doubt, only to suggest it. But she does have the power to force him to admit that her introduction of doubt was successful, if it was.
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Post by jayne on Nov 27, 2010 0:50:59 GMT
Annie is forcing Rey to stay, but she has no more power to make him acknowledge that she's right than, say, Eglamore does. You're wrong there. Annie said it clearly enough, Rey has to tell her the truth if she says so. She doesn't have the power to make him doubt, only to suggest it. But she does have the power to force him to admit that her introduction of doubt was successful, if it was. She can make him talk, and it must be true...but it doesn't have to answer her question.... she has no control of what he says or thinks. It's a physical power, not a mental power. (If you're wondering how that works, don't bother. Its one of those, "It just does" things. Tom says. )
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 27, 2010 2:17:55 GMT
Would you abuse your absolute power if they hadn't made up for it? Its just odd that you say you wouldn't abuse Rey because he's atoned for his transgressions. If he hadn't atoned, is he fair game for abuse? He tried to kill you, what would you do? Would it include being forced to stay and finish an argument or would it be worse? So long after the fact, probably not. Time has a way of dulling hatred, and there'd always be the possibility of just tossing him in a virtual-reality room and telling him not to leave.
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Post by jayne on Nov 27, 2010 3:28:37 GMT
Would you abuse your absolute power if they hadn't made up for it? Its just odd that you say you wouldn't abuse Rey because he's atoned for his transgressions. If he hadn't atoned, is he fair game for abuse? He tried to kill you, what would you do? Would it include being forced to stay and finish an argument or would it be worse? So long after the fact, probably not. Time has a way of dulling hatred, and there'd always be the possibility of just tossing him in a virtual-reality room and telling him not to leave. Okay so attempted murder is no big deal... just shrug it off. But Annie's making him finish an argument... that's terrible. I'm surprised he hasn't expired from the agony. They're just having an argument. Its not a big deal really. They're both having a blowup and maybe this will clear the air.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 27, 2010 3:46:44 GMT
Annie is forcing Rey to stay, but she has no more power to make him acknowledge that she's right than, say, Eglamore does. You're wrong there. Annie said it clearly enough, Rey has to tell her the truth if she says so. She doesn't have the power to make him doubt, only to suggest it. But she does have the power to force him to admit that her introduction of doubt was successful, if it was. And Rey has also said, and demonstrated, that Annie can't force him to talk.
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monte
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by monte on Nov 27, 2010 3:57:55 GMT
But Annie's making him finish an argument... that's terrible. I'm surprised he hasn't expired from the agony. They're just having an argument. Its not a big deal really. They're both having a blowup and maybe this will clear the air. I think you're underestimating how painful this argument is. For Annie she clearly loves her father and believes the best in him and thus doesn't like people speaking poorly of him... It is something Annie will get over though as she can always fall back on her belief that Rey is wrong and that it is a fact that her father was a good man. As for Rey's part, Surma was a VERY big part of his life. He loved her deeply, believed she felt the same and he even went to extreme lengths for that love. Annie is effectively telling him that one of most important people in his life was nothing but a lie so that he could be imprisoned in a dark cell forever. A statement like that is soul crushing... frankly if it's not rectified in some way i would not be surprised if Rey remains in a depressed and angry mood for weeks or even longer... this is not something he will get over easily.
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Post by jayne on Nov 27, 2010 4:39:32 GMT
But Annie's making him finish an argument... that's terrible. I'm surprised he hasn't expired from the agony. They're just having an argument. Its not a big deal really. They're both having a blowup and maybe this will clear the air. I think you're underestimating how painful this argument is. For Annie she clearly loves her father and believes the best in him and thus doesn't like people speaking poorly of him... It is something Annie will get over though as she can always fall back on her belief that Rey is wrong and that it is a fact that her father was a good man. As for Rey's part, Surma was a VERY big part of his life. He loved her deeply, believed she felt the same and he even went to extreme lengths for that love. Annie is effectively telling him that one of most important people in his life was nothing but a lie so that he could be imprisoned in a dark cell forever. A statement like that is soul crushing... frankly if it's not rectified in some way i would not be surprised if Rey remains in a depressed and angry mood for weeks or even longer... this is not something he will get over easily. Yes, and I remember having very painful/hurtful arguments with my father, brother and sisters and we always made up after but occasionally we just needed to clear the air. Usually something stupid got it going, then things would shift to what was really bothering us.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 27, 2010 5:27:00 GMT
So long after the fact, probably not. Time has a way of dulling hatred, and there'd always be the possibility of just tossing him in a virtual-reality room and telling him not to leave. Okay so attempted murder is no big deal... just shrug it off. But Annie's making him finish an argument... that's terrible. I'm surprised he hasn't expired from the agony. They're just having an argument. Its not a big deal really. They're both having a blowup and maybe this will clear the air. It is a big deal because she's using supernatural control powers to torment him for saying some mean things about her dad. It is not okay, any more than it would be for me to put a gun to your head and force you to agree with me in an argument because you said something that pissed me off.
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Post by jayne on Nov 27, 2010 16:14:13 GMT
Okay so attempted murder is no big deal... just shrug it off. But Annie's making him finish an argument... that's terrible. I'm surprised he hasn't expired from the agony. They're just having an argument. Its not a big deal really. They're both having a blowup and maybe this will clear the air. It is a big deal because she's using supernatural control powers to torment him for saying some mean things about her dad. It is not okay, any more than it would be for me to put a gun to your head and force you to agree with me in an argument because you said something that pissed me off. Is she really? She's using her powers to torment him? That's her motivation, she's doing this to torment him? So she doesn't simply want to continue the discussion, she's now only doing this to cause him pain... cause she does that. (and if you did put a gun to my head and force me to agree with you in an argument, that would be attempted murder and I should just ignore that or put you in a virtual room... yeah...)
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Post by jayne on Nov 27, 2010 16:19:02 GMT
This isn't "You will stay and submit to my will!"
This is more like Rey tried to go to his room and pout and Annie followed him in instead of leaving him alone.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 27, 2010 19:05:02 GMT
It is a big deal because she's using supernatural control powers to torment him for saying some mean things about her dad. It is not okay, any more than it would be for me to put a gun to your head and force you to agree with me in an argument because you said something that pissed me off. Is she really? She's using her powers to torment him? That's her motivation, she's doing this to torment him? So she doesn't simply want to continue the discussion, she's now only doing this to cause him pain... cause she does that. (and if you did put a gun to my head and force me to agree with you in an argument, that would be attempted murder and I should just ignore that or put you in a virtual room... yeah...) The point is that it is coercion. She put hands on him/used her control over him to force him to stay, and while those are a bit different and perhaps a bit less directly threatening than a gun to the head, they are still coercive. It is not comparable to just following someone into their room. It really is more like "you will stay and submit to my will", as you put it. And yeah, I don't think she's really interested in civil discourse with Rey at this point.
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Post by jayne on Nov 27, 2010 20:51:13 GMT
Is she really? She's using her powers to torment him? That's her motivation, she's doing this to torment him? So she doesn't simply want to continue the discussion, she's now only doing this to cause him pain... cause she does that. (and if you did put a gun to my head and force me to agree with you in an argument, that would be attempted murder and I should just ignore that or put you in a virtual room... yeah...) The point is that it is coercion. She put hands on him/used her control over him to force him to stay, and while those are a bit different and perhaps a bit less directly threatening than a gun to the head, they are still coercive. It is not comparable to just following someone into their room. It really is more like "you will stay and submit to my will", as you put it. And yeah, I don't think she's really interested in civil discourse with Rey at this point. Well, we'll find out on Monday. Either they will continue to talk, or Annie will do something mean and hurtful, just for the sake of hurting/controlling/punishing Rey. Where does Rey go when he becomes a doll? Is it just that he can't talk back? It would seriously effect the scene..... like if the group of teenagers in a horror movie decide not to split up and look for the murderer with faulty flashlights.
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Post by jayne on Nov 29, 2010 14:00:00 GMT
Would you abuse your absolute power if they hadn't made up for it? Its just odd that you say you wouldn't abuse Rey because he's atoned for his transgressions. If he hadn't atoned, is he fair game for abuse? He tried to kill you, what would you do? Would it include being forced to stay and finish an argument or would it be worse? So long after the fact, probably not. Time has a way of dulling hatred, and there'd always be the possibility of just tossing him in a virtual-reality room and telling him not to leave. I was thinking of this. "Time has a way of dulling hatred" but they've had this time together because Annie chose to treat Rey well, and Rey responded well. Had Annie decided her attempted murderer deserved to be punished, things might not have gone so well. I think this might be what happened when Eglamore was his jailer. Eglamore did not treat Rey well but Eglamore did not have absolute control over Rey... just a metal bar binding him. So, the day after someone tried to kill you, if you had absolute control over your attempted murderer would you treat him well like Annie did, or badly like Eglamore did.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 30, 2010 8:33:03 GMT
So long after the fact, probably not. Time has a way of dulling hatred, and there'd always be the possibility of just tossing him in a virtual-reality room and telling him not to leave. I was thinking of this. "Time has a way of dulling hatred" but they've had this time together because Annie chose to treat Rey well, and Rey responded well. Had Annie decided her attempted murderer deserved to be punished, things might not have gone so well. I think this might be what happened when Eglamore was his jailer. Eglamore did not treat Rey well but Eglamore did not have absolute control over Rey... just a metal bar binding him. So, the day after someone tried to kill you, if you had absolute control over your attempted murderer would you treat him well like Annie did, or badly like Eglamore did. Having never had someone earnestly trying to kill me (excluding my motorcycle riding career), this is mostly speculation on my part. I imagine it would be highly dependent on the circumstances of the attempted murder (eg a traumatic home-invasion would probably make me angrier than trying to drop a piano on my head wile e. coyote-style). I'd like to say that I would just order him to turn himself in, but absolute power corrupts absolutely, so I can't honestly exclude the possibility that I'd tell him to walk in front of a bus. Edit: I wouldn't torture the guy, though.
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