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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 12:35:54 GMT
Admittedly, I am feeling quite strongly about this because it hits too close to my job.
As a teacher, I always try to consider both the person and their action. I can disapprove of their actions, very strongly dislike them, but I always try to prevent myself from condemning the person based on them until I get a better picture or I consider all the facts. It's very easy for a teacher to fall into the trap of classifying students into "good" and "bad" categories and I always remind myself as much as possible that the kids under me are complex human beings with many things contributing to their actions. Especially since I've been tossed into classifications by the faculty when I was student. An unpleasant experience I wouldn't wish on any kid under me.
Which is why I'm adamant about pointing out that this situation is more complex than Annie simply becoming a sadistic torturing bitch.
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Post by Aviyara on Nov 24, 2010 12:39:04 GMT
But that's just it. This is not simply "normal teenage anger" because the experiences Annie has had to deal with are decidedly not normal. A girl who's neglected by her only parent would be enough to qualify as not normal. In addition to that this is a girl who has--and I repeat this because this is pertinent--personally led her mother's soul to the afterlife, has almost been killed more than once, has had an intimate looks-see at the rage and hatred of a murderous ghost who was sentenced to die by the founders of the very school she's now living in. That is not "normal" by any stretch of the definition, and you expect her to have "normal" reactions? Those, alone, are going to get to her, no matter how unbelievably controlled she tries to be. In fact, I'm surprised she hasn't snapped earlier. Given all that, I still say it's too simplistic to start calling her some irredeemably cruel sadistic bitch. Yes, she's had to endure terrible things. My use of the word "normal" does not mean "normal for our world", because denizens of our world have never had to walk with ghosts, cast fire spells or guide our mothers to the afterlife, and thus we have no standard to hold her actions up to. It means a healthy response to a traumatic situation, which this most decidedly is, and torture most decidedly is not (in reverse order). My point has never been that she's an irredeemably cruel sadistic bitch. My point has never been that what she's done is inexplicable or unfounded. My point, for all of my posts, has been that Annie appears to have taken a walk off the short pier of sanity, because she is no longer behaving in a way that is healthy, rational or normal. She has, for all intents and purposes, "lost it" - hopefully temporarily, but the girl has just resorted to torture in order to regain her dominance in an argument. A very heated argument over a topic she's very sore over, but an argument nonetheless. There are no lives at stake here.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 12:57:46 GMT
Then by that logic, nearly all bullies have "lost it." How frequently to the resort to physical and verbal putdowns to assert their dominance? Or resort to such when their victim has the gall to stand up to them? No lives at stake here. Just their pride and dominance.
And the kind of violence and abuse bullies can dish out IS torture. It can and has caused lost of very real, lingering damage on their victims--physical, emotional, and psychological. But is it fair to just say that they "lost it?" That they're insane? No. Again, it's more complex than that. Yes, there are some bullies who are truly rotten, or come to become truly rotten because of the lack of intervention (or the wrong intervention). But they're not a homogeneous bunch. And certainly far from all of them are insane.
They do those far regularly than Annie so far has. Yes, Annie has magical control over Rey and is helpless. But, hell, some of the worse victims of bullies are helpless too. Not any magical or supernatural way or whatever, but still helpless. Many of them like picking on the person they know can't fight back in any real way. Are they all insane then?
Thus far, Annie has resorted to this just now. Once. We start calling her insane now? Sure, if she continues on this downward spiral long after all this, then we can probably start justifiably calling her insane or sadistic. But judging her like that at the height of anger--an emotion that is known to kick away rationality--is still, to me, too simplistic.
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 12:59:24 GMT
Annie's evil smile isn't because she's caused Rey pain (which she has)
She's not thinking about his emotional state right now... she's too caught up in in , "I"M RIGHT AND YOU KNOW IT!!"
"Don't you dare change, we're not done fighting!!"
Later, when she calms down, she'll consider his feelings and feel bad that she caused him pain. She's just not at that point yet. She's still too angry!
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jandor
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by jandor on Nov 24, 2010 13:09:56 GMT
I think Annie has gone to far: My explanation is thus, two pages ago I felt sorry for Annie, now I don't. She's gone to far with Rey. A quick apology card isn't going to fix this one.
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allec
Junior Member
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 13:14:05 GMT
mikeymikemikey: First, I think you should calm down a little. I mean, it really sounds like you're trying to force your opinion on others, y'know? Also, I think what makes this a bit more jarring regarding your latest post is that Antimony is not a bully. I'm a teacher as well and bullies do what they do regularly, regardless of whatever background excuse they might have. Annie does not. I'm not trying argue about what happened, but I think this preaching has gone a little too far in trying to excuse what Annie just did.
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Post by zylonbane on Nov 24, 2010 13:16:13 GMT
Wow, Annie went pure troll-face in panel four.
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Alex
Full Member
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Post by Alex on Nov 24, 2010 13:19:42 GMT
My point, for all of my posts, has been that Annie appears to have taken a walk off the short pier of sanity, because she is no longer behaving in a way that is healthy, rational or normal. She has, for all intents and purposes, "lost it" - hopefully temporarily, but the girl has just resorted to torture in order to regain her dominance in an argument. A very heated argument over a topic she's very sore over, but an argument nonetheless. There are no lives at stake here. One of these things is not like the other.
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Post by todd on Nov 24, 2010 13:50:10 GMT
A few weeks ago, I speculated that Surma's participating in a deception ploy for the Court was a sign of "You can't sleep with the dogs without catching fleas". I wonder if Annie's behavior here is another such case.
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Post by paxjax123 on Nov 24, 2010 14:20:22 GMT
Oh my God, Annie. Just... ;-; I'm going to cry.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 14:38:19 GMT
mikeymikemikey: First, I think you should calm down a little. I mean, it really sounds like you're trying to force your opinion on others, y'know? Also, I think what makes this a bit more jarring regarding your latest post is that Antimony is not a bully. I'm a teacher as well and bullies do what they do regularly, regardless of whatever background excuse they might have. Annie does not. I'm not trying argue about what happened, but I think this preaching has gone a little too far in trying to excuse what Annie just did. I'm not trying to force my own opinion. I'm expressing it, and my own opinions are formed based on my experiences. And if I come off as aggressive or whatever (calm down?), then you misconstrued my post. This is a discussion, so I'm allowed to express my opinion as much as you are allowed yours. Note, I have always said " I think" that it's simplistic. It's my opinion. If you'll note my posts carefully, I try to qualify them as such. I'm entitled to it as much as anyone else is to theirs. As this is a discussion then I present my opinions in response to others--it's the whole point of the thing. Does that make it preaching? Am I forcing you to think like me? If it comes across as that way, then you miss my point completely. I'm presenting what I think in response to what you think. And excuse Annie? Everything I've discussed presents the possible reasons leading to the outburst. I have NEVER said that what she did is not bad, merely that it's understandable and that it's not fair to make it a simplistic "she's a bitch" argument. In fact, I think you should calm down yourself if you think that a person not agreeing with you means that the person is "preaching" and aggressive, or that the person is trying to force you to agree with him/her.
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 14:45:32 GMT
But I do agree with almost everything you said.
Read your posts, though. You really do sound aggressive.
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 14:47:13 GMT
But I do agree with almost everything you said. Read your posts, though. You really do sound aggressive. That seems to be a matter of interpretation. It doesn't sound aggressive to me.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 14:48:36 GMT
But I do agree with almost everything you said. Read your posts, though. You really do sound aggressive. If it does, then I apologize to anyone who felt like I was angry or screaming at them. That's just how I write when I do serious discussion. That's the problem with text-only discussions. You don't really see the expressions or hear the tone of the person, and smileys can only go so far (not that I use them much when in serious mode).
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allec
Junior Member
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 14:57:54 GMT
Sure, no problem. Maybe the person above you, and yourself as well, are right and I misread the posts, but I do think discussions could go with a little more lightheartedness. I mean, I try to keep up with banter about the comic elsewhere and most people outside remark on how this place seems to discuss things quite violently; while I haven't observed that to extreme degrees myself, it does sound a bit bad to an outsider.
I think someone even pointed it out in the formspring, which has to mean something.[/font]
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 15:07:07 GMT
Sure, no problem. Maybe the person above you, and yourself as well, are right and I misread the posts, but I do think discussions could go with a little more lightheartedness. I mean, I try to keep up with banter about the comic elsewhere and most people outside remark on how this place seems to discuss things quite violently; while I haven't observed that to extreme degrees myself, it does sound a bit bad to an outsider.
I think someone even pointed it out in the formspring, which has to mean something. [/font][/quote] I'm a new member myself, but in the discussions I've participated in I haven't seen anything "violent" in them. When curse words are said, it's only to add flavor and not directed at the posters themselves. The discussions here are far from the flame wars in other internet forums, where people start calling each other "fucktard," "dickwad," or a host of other insulting/racist/homophobic/etc. terms over things like shipping or fanwank explanations. Here? I've yet to see anyone heinously insult anyone over a disagreement. But, again, people discuss differently. My tone is lighthearted when I'm making jokes (take some of my art thread attempts at humor, for example). But when making a serious point, I'm serious. That's just how I discuss.
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allec
Junior Member
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 15:10:55 GMT
I see. I'm a lurker and I usually like to keep that way, but this page was just too strong and I wanted to discuss it with other people. I haven't seen anything too bad either, but I do wonder why Tom seems to dislike the forum.[/font]
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 15:12:34 GMT
The 'mean people on the forum' (hopefully) refers to people who get insulted when you disagree and, basically insult people in return. I haven't seen much of that and none lately.
We do have debates about issues we feel strongly about but as long as that's done respectfully, there should be no problem.
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 15:15:14 GMT
I see. I'm a lurker and I usually like to keep that way, but this page was just too strong and I wanted to discuss it with other people. I haven't seen anything too bad either, but I do wonder why Tom seems to dislike the forum. [/font][/quote] I think its just hard for someone who has created something to hear people complain, misinterpret, miss the point entirely, or just mock his artwork when he's very critical of his work already. Plus, some of the stuff in GC 'just does'... for the sake of the story, accept it does and go with it. He really doesn't seem to like it when people point out logical gaps in Rey's power because there is no real logical explanation of Rey's powers... they just work somehow. Someone made a point of saying "Rey can take anything with eyes so he can take possession of potatoes right?" Those may be called "eyes" but they aren't actually organs of vision...
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 15:16:32 GMT
I see. I'm a lurker and I usually like to keep that way, but this page was just too strong and I wanted to discuss it with other people. I haven't seen anything too bad either, but I do wonder why Tom seems to dislike the forum. [/font][/quote] Well, this is just how it comes off to me, but Tom seems to be annoyed about people pestering him to confirm or dismiss their petty theories, reveal future plot elements, make him explain explicitly what any one comic page means, or keep repeating the same questions over and over again. It's understandable that anyone would grow weary of that. that's why I never ask Tom anything, either here or on formspring.
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 15:20:24 GMT
I always assume Tom is lurking here but I think he's gotten tired of Formspring. I've been trying to save up my questions for an occasional 'good one.'
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 15:20:58 GMT
I asked him a few things on the formspring and had positive results. Might be because he doesn't like when people take things too seriously? I recall reading something like that, but it was a while ago.
Well, this ended nicely![/font]
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 15:22:21 GMT
"taking things seriously" could mean several things.
If he's written something that IS serious, I'm sure he appreciates when we 'get it'
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Post by 0o0f on Nov 24, 2010 15:26:52 GMT
Been reading this comic for a while. Decided it was time to join the forums.
Wow. Renard isn't exactly innocent either, but he looks so pitiful right now. I agree, it is painful to see Annie act this cruel. I really wouldn't like it if it turned out a demonic spider made her do it or something, though. That would just be cheap. People sometimes go too far, and they don't have possession to justify it on. (Also, another part of me is enjoying this side of Annie.) Someone also said that Annie has a fire in her. I think it might have been Renard saying that, and it seems like he was right.
Also is it just me or does she look more curvy than before (dammit I sound like a perv). I think it might be hormones indeed.
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 15:28:54 GMT
She... does seem slightly more curvy. Especially in panel 3.[/font]
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 15:30:16 GMT
Welcome OoOf, or is that 0o0f? Yeah, Annie is developing normally. She's also looking more like angry Surma right now.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 15:30:30 GMT
Well, she is a growing girl. Sometimes puberty is slow, and sometimes--BOOM!--you've got curves! (or strangely excessive amounts of facial hair if you're a guy)
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 15:34:27 GMT
The 'facial' part is subjective. :D[/font]
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Post by 0o0f on Nov 24, 2010 15:36:27 GMT
Welcome OoOf, or is that 0o0f? The latter. Sigh, Annie is growing up.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 15:36:34 GMT
The 'facial' part is subjective. [/font][/quote] Naturally.
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