americonedream
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What are birds? We just don't know!
Posts: 213
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Post by americonedream on Nov 24, 2010 8:34:53 GMT
I was right about Annie yelling, kind of. Though this seems less like smug casually and more like smug super-villainy. You get a full cookie because now all I can do is imagine super villain Annie. And it's glorious.
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myzelf
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by myzelf on Nov 24, 2010 8:36:37 GMT
Interesting. Her hair was falling out of place in the previous strip as she became increasingly unhinged. I expected it to get worse when she finally exploded, but instead she put it back to normal. As if she's regained her self-control.
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Post by Rex on Nov 24, 2010 8:46:22 GMT
Yeah, the hair was a nice touch. You can see it as her focusing her scope on Renard before sniping at his weak spots.
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Post by eightyfour on Nov 24, 2010 8:52:31 GMT
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Post by fjodor on Nov 24, 2010 8:56:11 GMT
Wow. Teenage cruelty. Talking about rubbing it in. Maybe Annie cares more for her dad than she was willing to admit.
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Post by agasa on Nov 24, 2010 8:57:58 GMT
I...i'm shocked. I mean, sure i was mean with my parents sometimes, sure i shouted and sometimes we ever scuffled physically...but i never GLOATED. If i want to hurt someone, i give a nice good slap on the face, my steam is gone, i apologize, he hopefully realizes what made me mad, we never do that again. And i would never do it to a FRIEND. She's enjoying it a bit too much, and that...that face, it's not hers, i mean, do you remember what he did constantly after coming in her possession? He was more than a parent. He was the most loyal friend ever, and furthermore he couldn't hurt her by design. It's...evil to do this to a person. It's torture, especially for Rey. She's his world now, if she's really so good at understanding people, she should understand this. I'm never calling Annie emotionless again, not that i ever did. She's getting very close to heartless, vain bitch here. That, or she just became a woman and she's having her first PMS ever!
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chibisoma
New Member
Banned - Rule 1
Posts: 49
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Post by chibisoma on Nov 24, 2010 8:58:14 GMT
Thank god, she's acting like normal people.
Yeah, you know what? People get pissed off. And when you push someone's buttons enough, they're GOING to enjoy seeing YOU hurting, too. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and evil for evil. Annie isn't a saint. She's a good person with emotional issues and she isn't good at interacting with people.
The reason she can act this way to Renard is because he isn't PEOPLE. He's a monster who TRIED TO KILL HER. The fact that he's kept her safe since is irrelevant. He kept her safe because he was essentially under her control. He kept her safe because she reminded him of Surma. Renard does not deserve kindness.
I love this page. I love seeing Annie finally get straight up pissed off and spiteful with someone. She just listened to Renard basically call her father a worthless asshole who didn't give a damn about her mother. He thought of Surma as HIS.
He gets what he deserves and it is glorious.
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monte
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by monte on Nov 24, 2010 9:00:07 GMT
Interesting. Her hair was falling out of place in the previous strip as she became increasingly unhinged. I expected it to get worse when she finally exploded, but instead she put it back to normal. As if she's regained her self-control. That raises some serious implications... I mean its one thing if you are caught up in the heat of the moment, but another thing if you are in control
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americonedream
Full Member
What are birds? We just don't know!
Posts: 213
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Post by americonedream on Nov 24, 2010 9:02:56 GMT
Oh, dang, yes! Good catch and Rey didn't even know Diego. Annie knows Rey so what she's saying is really hurtful. I'm sure Diego wouldn't have liked what Rey said either but he's dead. Oh, how the tables have turned.
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Alex
Full Member
Posts: 165
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Post by Alex on Nov 24, 2010 9:03:10 GMT
Thank god, she's acting like normal people. Yeah, you know what? People get pissed off. And when you push someone's buttons enough, they're GOING to enjoy seeing YOU hurting, too. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and evil for evil. Annie isn't a saint. She's a good person with emotional issues and she isn't good at interacting with people. The reason she can act this way to Renard is because he isn't PEOPLE. He's a monster who TRIED TO KILL HER. The fact that he's kept her safe since is irrelevant. He kept her safe because he was essentially under her control. He kept her safe because she reminded him of Surma. Renard does not deserve kindness. I love this page. I love seeing Annie finally get straight up pissed off and spiteful with someone. She just listened to Renard basically call her father a worthless asshole who didn't give a damn about her mother. He thought of Surma as HIS. He gets what he deserves and it is glorious. Preach it, brother!
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Post by rook077 on Nov 24, 2010 9:09:10 GMT
Annie does tend to overdo things.Annie has reason to be vindictive. She has boy trouble, homework trouble, and parent trouble on almost every front. That's bound to make a person mean. But everything from panel 3 here on goes way, way past vindictive or spiteful.
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Post by johnwwells on Nov 24, 2010 9:10:37 GMT
Plausible psychological explanations that do not rely on possession/spiders:
* Annie still believes that Reynardine honestly tried to kill her. She also believes that she's not angry, that she's dealing with this rationally, and so on - but he tried to kill her, and she never really let herself be angry about that.
* Faced between thinking that her mother did something terrible and unjust, and thinking that Reynardine really deserved to be mistreated, she's decided to take the latter option. Since it's counterintuitive for her, she's pushing herself to be cruel, because the only other option is to accept that her mother was not as ideal as she thought.
* Annie is identifying Reynardine with Diego - an pathetic obsessive who was not loved back, and ended up getting people killed. Reynardine's now getting exactly the treatment she, consciously or subconsciously, wishes Diego could have gotten.
* Annie feels guilty about what she's doing, but is not happy with being called out on her actions by a "surrogate father;" it reminds her that her parents really wouldn't have approved if they were there. Said "surrogate father" belittling the absent father makes it even worse. "You're NOT MY FATHER!" would be the standard thing to say, but when Annie wants to say something wounding, she's going to go much further with it.
* Annie dislikes lies, political deception, and condescension, and would rather see secrets be revealed; it is harder for her to see telling the truth as a wrong than it might be for others, even if she's usually much less nasty about it.
Any one of these explanations, alone, combined with being young and angry, could explain her behavior. None of them justify it, but I think we've been kind of spoiled by "rational Annie", to the point where a thirteen-year-old lashing out in a cruel way somehow surprises us.
Don't forget what Rey said: "You have a fire in you, girl - a fire that belonged to your mother!" Given the chapter's title, that's about all the foreshadowing we need.
Also, I'd like to repeat my "Rey didn't try to possess Annie; he was trying to commit suicide via Eglamore" spec now. Trying to beat Anthony to the afterlife and get to Surma first now seems absolutely in-character for him, given no other options.
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Post by Goatmon on Nov 24, 2010 9:11:09 GMT
I think Annie will regret this, later.
As it is, she's had to deal with learning that the court has murdered people to further its goals and got away with it, which no doubt has her questioning who she can and can't trust. She's had to deal with the depths of Zimmyland, and other various secrets of the court. She's even had to learn that her own mother, who she probably idolized, seduced and helped imprison one of the kinder creatures of the forest, primarily on the paranoid whims of the Court.
This, on top of the normal stress of a teenage girl growing up with no parental guidance.
Poor gal just can't deal with it all, and now she's taking it out on Renard. Maybe because he's the easiest target.
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Post by johnwwells on Nov 24, 2010 9:23:21 GMT
goatmon: I don't think Renard is just the easiest target. He's also, at the moment, a worthy target. What makes Annie's actions wrong here aren't that he doesn't deserve to be lashed out at and disillusioned, but that she's deliberately twisting the knife when she knows he's under her complete control.
How many people her age could be trusted with absolute control over someone else? It's horribly unhealthy for her, and this outburst shows why. It's one thing that he can't defend himself physically, but ordering him to "tell the truth" about Surma comes down to invasive mental torture. The old Court founders would be proud.
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Post by mojojojo on Nov 24, 2010 9:23:25 GMT
Maybe this is another case of Not-Annie. I realize she isn't a perfect angel, but this just seems... way too out of character. Yeah, I was wondering something similar - but it may be just because I don't want Annie to be such a bitch. The only visual suggestion of it is the way Annie's hair is going out of control and some of her expressions/poses... which are a bit reminiscent of some of Zimnie's from Spring Heeled Jack part 2. But that could just be because they're both angry, and we don't have any eye shadow problems, and there haven't been any hints of any supernatural problems before now. It's not just an angry teenage rant though - it's vindictive. In my experience, people and teenagers do say mean things when angry but normally once they've actually hurt someone they back off (and normally regret it). Annie's relishing in it though, forcing Reynard to say it to hurt him even more. Maybe Annie picked up a bit of Zimmy during the weirdness in Spring-heeled Jack, but she's managed to keep it bottled up until now. But I don't have much experiecne of teenagers really, and especially not teenagers who've been abandoned by their father after their mother has died, so I'm probably just being hopeful.
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Post by rafk on Nov 24, 2010 9:25:28 GMT
Annie is not nice. But she's just entering adolescence and Renard was being VERY mean about her father. And Annie probably has to cop the occasional nasty remark about her father from other people at the Court (and has probably had one from Renard before this). Firing back is a perfectly normal reaction. Just because Annie restrains herself when provoked by Jones doesn't mean she wasn't seething inside, and with Renard Annie doesn't have to keep it inside (and has the perfect counterattack to inflict pain on Renard for daring to emotionally hurt her re: her father). She probably doesn't realise, in the heat of the moment, quite how much this will hurt Renard... I mean, it's only a central pillar of his life, the reason he killed a man and became imprisoned, all that jazz...
One would hope she had the sense to order him not to ask Kat about the book-copying, 'cos I can't see him being exactly eager to protect Annie for a little while.
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Post by rafk on Nov 24, 2010 9:27:56 GMT
Annie is not nice. But she's just entering adolescence and Renard was being VERY mean about her father. And Annie probably has to cop the occasional nasty remark about her father from other people at the Court (and has probably had one from Renard before this). Firing back is a perfectly normal reaction. Just because Annie restrains herself when provoked by Jones doesn't mean she wasn't seething inside, and with Renard Annie doesn't have to keep it inside (and has the perfect counterattack to inflict pain on Renard for daring to emotionally hurt her re: her father). She probably doesn't realise, in the heat of the moment, quite how much this will hurt Renard... I mean, it's only a central pillar of his life, the reason he killed a man and became imprisoned, all that jazz... One would hope she had the sense to order him not to ask Kat about the book-copying, 'cos I can't see him being exactly eager to protect Annie for a little while. Or alternatively, maybe this is the moment where Annie realises she enjoys being sadistic and heads down the dark path of becoming "Annie-kin" *groan* Hey, she's already good at stilted dialogue in romance situations...
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Alex
Full Member
Posts: 165
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Post by Alex on Nov 24, 2010 9:30:17 GMT
This is a non sequitur.
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Post by rook077 on Nov 24, 2010 9:30:35 GMT
Plausible psychological explanations that do not rely on possession/spiders: (Trufax) *Annie is caught between herself a bit: she constantly hears conflicting opinions on her father that mirror the ones within herself. She wants to resent him for abandoning her, while simultaneously wanting him to be a part of her life. *She's also starting to realize how little control she has over her life. Her mother's death, her father's absence, being responsible for Renard, and everyone's interest in her because of who her parents were and her (apparent) powers. It's natural to desire the return of control, and Renard presents an easy and obvious target. Any one of these explanations, alone, combined with being young and angry, could explain her behavior. None of them justify it, but I think we've been kind of spoiled by "rational Annie", to the point where a thirteen-year-old lashing out in a cruel way somehow surprises us. Don't forget what Rey said: "You have a fire in you, girl - a fire that belonged to your mother!" Given the chapter's title, that's about all the foreshadowing we need. +1
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Post by johnwwells on Nov 24, 2010 9:30:43 GMT
There's a difference between being a bitch and acting like one. Annie isn't a bitch; she is, however, showing the kind of behavior you'd expect when a thirteen-year-old is given power over her "attempted murderer" in a hostile environment, then insulted by that same person after she tried to protect him. I'm not saying that circumstances excuse her behavior, but this control scenario makes the Stanford Prison Experiment look mild.
Sadism is, sadly, a much more normal response to this kind of power and insult than we'd probably like to admit.
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snuggly
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The last man on earth sat in a room. There was a knock upon the door.
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Post by snuggly on Nov 24, 2010 9:34:41 GMT
I am not sure what to make of this, but what we saw was a test of Annie's character. Now, we will see how far she takes her released rage (for a lack of a better term at this point) and deals with it. is she going to loose control, and be as hurtful as she can? (she has developed curves which means hormones)
What is coming next is a test of Renard's character. Simply saying a persons father might be the last straw, but when you tell someone something foundation shaking, in as hurtful a way as possible, while cutting off any retreat... well, Renard is cornered right now. His fight response is up. Shit is hitting the wall, either one or two strips from now or when he actually can do something about it.
The other thing I am having trepidation about is the precedent this will set in Renard and Annie's relationship in the future. Is she going to make this a routine coping mechanism? I really hope that Renard has some way to punish Annie for her transgressions or else this is a case of giving a child WAY to much power over a sentient being.
Also, he was trying to go into plushie form, not wolf form.
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monte
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by monte on Nov 24, 2010 9:38:15 GMT
Yeah, you know what? People get pissed off. And when you push someone's buttons enough, they're GOING to enjoy seeing YOU hurting, too. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and evil for evil. Annie isn't a saint. She's a good person with emotional issues and she isn't good at interacting with people. I wouldn't really call it eye for an eye. Reynard was telling his truthful opinion on Anthony and Annie found it insulting, but he was not actually trying to hurt her; any anger he saw in her may have been like he saw as it being necessary to make her see the "truth". it maybe painful but all its the truth as far as he knows it... He otherwise may not have been really thinking of her feelings; he's venting his feelings about Anthony without really thinking of Annie's own feelings... it also happens all the time that people hurt others without fully realizing it... Annie, she's stepping beyond that, she's not just telling him the truth but she is TRYING to hurt him; she doesn't just want him to know the truth she wants to see him suffer through it. That goes beyond justified payback and becomes just plain cruel Rey deserved a good smack/payback/whatever for being so insensitive/insutling, but this beyond what he deserves Now a lot of that is assumption. There is nothing that says that his continued protection of Annie was ONLY because he belonged to her and because of her connection to Surma. It has been months since he came to be her doll and he has shown himself to be more helpful and protective of her than he ever needed to be. There is nothing saying he doesn't care about Annie for who she is on her own And though i might not be something that Annie is thinking, i would add that Reynard has shown some signs of regret whenever the subject of trying to kill Annie comes up I think Annie will regret this, later. Ya I think so to... Frankly thinking back to Rey's body in the forest i kind of think that all this may lead up to her freeing Rey Plausible psychological explanations that do not rely on possession/spiders: * Annie still believes that Reynardine honestly tried to kill her. She also believes that she's not angry, that she's dealing with this rationally, and so on - but he tried to kill her, and she never really let herself be angry about that. * Faced between thinking that her mother did something terrible and unjust, and thinking that Reynardine really deserved to be mistreated, she's decided to take the latter option. Since it's counterintuitive for her, she's pushing herself to be cruel, because the only other option is to accept that her mother was not as ideal as she thought. * Annie is identifying Reynardine with Diego - an pathetic obsessive who was not loved back, and ended up getting people killed. Reynardine's now getting exactly the treatment she, consciously or subconsciously, wishes Diego could have gotten. * Annie feels guilty about what she's doing, but is not happy with being called out on her actions by a "surrogate father;" it reminds her that her parents really wouldn't have approved if they were there. Said "surrogate father" belittling the absent father makes it even worse. "You're NOT MY FATHER!" would be the standard thing to say, but when Annie wants to say something wounding, she's going to go much further with it. * Annie dislikes lies, political deception, and condescension, and would rather see secrets be revealed; it is harder for her to see telling the truth as a wrong than it might be for others, even if she's usually much less nasty about it. Any one of these explanations, alone, combined with being young and angry, could explain her behavior. None of them justify it, but I think we've been kind of spoiled by "rational Annie", to the point where a thirteen-year-old lashing out in a cruel way somehow surprises us. Don't forget what Rey said: "You have a fire in you, girl - a fire that belonged to your mother!" Given the chapter's title, that's about all the foreshadowing we need. Also, I'd like to repeat my "Rey didn't try to possess Annie; he was trying to commit suicide via Eglamore" spec now. Trying to beat Anthony to the afterlife and get to Surma first now seems absolutely in-character for him, given no other options. Very nice analysis
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Post by indie2 on Nov 24, 2010 9:42:06 GMT
HI I'm new!!!
Did anyone else like how annie reacted. i think it was reasonable; she loves her dad and won't hear a thing wrong about him and Rey was being a complete d***. Annies human, i would react that way if someone said something about my dad (i know i felt like killing a friend of mine once when she said something about my nan.) I'm surprised more people aren't on Annie's side.
then again, that was before i saw the new page. enter psychotic smiling annie *shivers*. it's sort of like the sides have turned; i didn't expect Rey to be so cut up, i expected him to be defensive and not so pitiable while annie would blow up in anger and they'd have a blazing row until annie shouts something he can't defend. i didn't expect annie to be smiling while kicking him while he's down.
It sort of tell's me that Rey already knew and was denying it. he accepted it way to easily. annie just brought the horrible inkling that he'd always had and buried to light for him.
as for annie, somethings cracked in her stoic persona, i just haven't figured out what made it happen yet. I like the idea that finding out her mother and father aren't as perfect as she always pictured made her come to the decision that it wasn't her mother it was Rey who was the bad guy in the equation, strengthened by the fact that he then insults her dad. she cracks and gets angry eventually enjoying it, taking down the bad guy and punishing him in her anger, like a hero slaying a dragon metaphor.
it scares me that annie can take enjoyment in hurting someone like that though. i hope she regrets it but i doubt it, that would mean she would accept her parents aren't perfect and she's not willing to do that, obviously.
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snuggly
New Member
The last man on earth sat in a room. There was a knock upon the door.
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Post by snuggly on Nov 24, 2010 9:48:43 GMT
Also, people are talking about deserving to be insulted or something along those lines. There is no way to objectively know what someone deserves. Because of that, you can only try and observe the causes of why someone did an action.
You can only get hurt emotionally by people that you let have power over you.
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Post by penguinfactory on Nov 24, 2010 9:53:14 GMT
Holy crap. This is now one of my all-time favourite pages.
Annie is acting pretty much exactly like Jack did, only she (presumably) doesn't have any mind spiders controlling her.
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Loki
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ZzZzZzZ
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Post by Loki on Nov 24, 2010 9:55:50 GMT
I was right about Annie yelling, kind of. Though this seems less like smug casually and more like smug super-villainy. You get a full cookie because now all I can do is imagine super villain Annie. And it's glorious. It is glorious, indeed! ...and I love her evil face and pose in the 5th panel =O
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Brinunah
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DFTBA - An Initialism Standing for "Don't Forget To Be Awesome"
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Post by Brinunah on Nov 24, 2010 10:03:16 GMT
The Name "Fire Spike" is starting to make much more sense now. Talk about Fiery Ginger Rage.... Sheesh Annie ><!
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Post by fuzzysocks on Nov 24, 2010 10:03:21 GMT
Sorry, I completely disagree. Sure I argued with my parents, but I was never even close to this cruel toward them, and I wouldn't consider it normal if someone had. Well you are a little angel then. I'm gonna have to agree that you're a little angel if you've never done such a thing or even THOUGHT of such a thing. Either that or you're prone to mental breakdowns. Please keep in mine I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just saying that honestly most people will lash back out at their friends and/or parents ESPECIALLY when your having a very bad day. It may not be to THAT extent, but if I had a day like she was where everything was going wrong and it was building up to an ungodly level I know for a fact that I lash out at people... sometimes quite cruelly. But what also helps in the end is that I've realized what I've said and apologize for it.
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Post by fuzzysocks on Nov 24, 2010 10:06:02 GMT
Thank god, she's acting like normal people. Yeah, you know what? People get pissed off. And when you push someone's buttons enough, they're GOING to enjoy seeing YOU hurting, too. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and evil for evil. Annie isn't a saint. She's a good person with emotional issues and she isn't good at interacting with people. The reason she can act this way to Renard is because he isn't PEOPLE. He's a monster who TRIED TO KILL HER. The fact that he's kept her safe since is irrelevant. He kept her safe because he was essentially under her control. He kept her safe because she reminded him of Surma. Renard does not deserve kindness. I love this page. I love seeing Annie finally get straight up pissed off and spiteful with someone. She just listened to Renard basically call her father a worthless asshole who didn't give a damn about her mother. He thought of Surma as HIS. He gets what he deserves and it is glorious. You get a gold star.
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Post by johnwwells on Nov 24, 2010 10:06:19 GMT
This is quite possible for a detached observer. Under these conditions, it's too much to ask of Annie, who isn't a full-fledged medium just yet.
Like, um, friends?
I see Annie's explosion here as an important part of her maturation. This may be bad, but is it any worse than never throwing a cruel fit, ever, on account of never having taken the risk of friendship?
Maybe having friends who can hurt her, and whom she can hurt in return, does make Annie a little vulnerable to be a medium. If that's the case, it's not a job that any kid her age should be stuck with - or any person, for that matter.
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