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Post by foresterr on Nov 24, 2010 10:07:36 GMT
Wow, when Annie lashes out, she sure takes it all the way. Inverse proportionality, I guess. I can't wait to see what will the fallout be, for all sides.
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Post by hurston on Nov 24, 2010 10:09:54 GMT
That's really nasty. Has a whitelegs got to her, or just various people being horrible that has caused her to snap. I know that Tom has said on formspring that Annie doesn't know why she is doing/saying certain things, so I'm guessing she is not quite herself. The whitelegs we know about, but maybe there is some other external influence we don't know about yet.
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Post by fuzzysocks on Nov 24, 2010 10:13:45 GMT
That's really nasty. Has a whitelegs got to her, or just various people being horrible that has caused her to snap. I know that Tom has said on formspring that Annie doesn't know why she is doing/saying certain things, so I'm guessing she is not quite herself. The whitelegs we know about, but maybe there is some other external influence we don't know about yet. One word: Puberty.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 24, 2010 10:14:12 GMT
Holy shit. I'll admit, I could see the argument for Rey deserving this when Annie smacked him with the simple, unvarnished truth about how little Surma thought of him. His comments about Surma and her father were out of line, after all. There is such a thing as a proportional response, though, and she's gone pretty far beyond it at this point. It seems that she's taking advantage of her (essentially absolute) control over Rey to further abuse him, and taking considerable pleasure in doing so, too. It's like tying up and beating a dog because it bit you: a contemptible overreaction no matter how bad of a day you were having. It speaks poorly of her moral character, I think. I think it's safe to say, at this point, that she's completely wrecked her relationship with Rey. What's more, I think that things may continue to get more intense, since he's no-doubt got some drama-bombs of his own to drop, and because Kat is due back at any moment.
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Post by cronkite on Nov 24, 2010 10:25:03 GMT
I'm coming out of lurking here to comment that this is a really strong page.
It's painful to see Annie humanized to this level, but it makes her feel a lot more like a real person, and the fact that I feel anything about a girl in a webcomic means that Gunnerkrigg's characterization is quite good.
I don't think it's particularly accurate to say that this is "just a teenager acting out." The cruelty and the enjoyment she's getting out of it kind of takes the situation beyond that. However, that doesn't mean that Annie is a "bad person." She's a kid and she probably doesn't have the life experience and maturity to realize that in a moment of such intense distress and emotion she should stay quiet, take a step back, and think before speaking. (Of course, in general, a lot of people well beyond Annie's age don't have that maturity either.) What'll determine Annie's character (good/bad) is how she handles the aftermath of saying and doing something awful that she can never take back.
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Post by indie2 on Nov 24, 2010 10:29:39 GMT
people react to things in different ways. when i get angry i fly off the handle and don't care who get's hurt until later when noones talking to me and i'm paying for it and someones whos a third person has just told me calmly that i am actually wrong. then i get depressed. i'm the sort of person that see's red and doesn't think til i've calmed down. it's what you'd call an unproportional response.
my sisters are completely different and just let nothing get to them. i envy them for that.
annie has a lot of pent up emotion. she's like a vocano. she's quiet until someone pushes the wrong button and she erupts and takes everyone with her and damn the consequences.
anger isn't something you think about when you're feeling it. I don't think it speaks poorly of her moral character at all. it makes her human. she not beating him up or using physical violence, is she?
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 10:31:41 GMT
I really don't get how this is "way out of character" or "not like Annie" or whatever. It seems like such a narrow definition of a person's character. Just because most of the time she keeps herself under firm control that it's impossible for her to have an outburst at any time? We have to define her as always reserved and extremely controlled?
It may be weeks for us, but remember the context of time span here, people. In a day she's had a long-secret nasty fact about her beloved mother revealed to her, she then had to deal with a situation she has no idea how to deal with (a boy her age hitting on her), she has to break into Kat's room to cheat off of her yet again, and then she comes back to Rey being on her case about it before going on to insulting her father (one of the things we know she gets angry about.
That's just what she had to experience for that day alone. Before all that she had to go through her mother's death, she had to guide the soul of said mother to the afterlife herself, her father practically abandoning her, all of the life-threatening and emotionally-shocking ups and downs of her stay at the Court, and the whole Jeanne business she still wants to investigate. To top it all off, lets not forget that she's a girl in her early teens.
This isn't some hardened veteran with years of experience, nor is she some sort of ultra-disciplined survivor made stoic over the years. At her age could you have kept it together after going through all of that without an outburst at some point? Likely not, because I'm pretty sure no one here as accumulated anywhere near the number of those experiences Annie has had to deal with in a span of a few years.
This outburst was a long time coming. It was bound to happen, and the events of the day accumulated to said outburst finally coming. As far as outbursts go, this is remarkably restrained considering everything she's had to put up with. So far, she's only limited her rage to words.
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Post by indie2 on Nov 24, 2010 10:34:10 GMT
here, here!
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Post by Afalstein on Nov 24, 2010 10:36:29 GMT
Aaaaand this is why you DON'T piss off someone who can control your very body.
Apparently our little firehead has quite the sadistic streak. Again, Rey had it coming, but Annie, as usual, tends to lose it when people push her over the edge (perhaps why she keeps herself under such strict control). That being said, she knows EXACTLY what she's doing here, and is having a disturbingly good time with it.
The good news is, now that the truth is out, we have the rest of the comic to deal with the after-effects and hopefully rebuilding of the Annie/Rey connection. Definitely not going to be as easy as the Mort situation.
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Post by weshtery on Nov 24, 2010 10:41:19 GMT
Or, and I'm probably just being a tad too suspicious here, some of Jeanne's influence has rubbed off on Annie?
Or maybe she brought a spider hitch hiker back from Birmingsham...
...or...or...
...okay, maybe she's just going through a phase.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 10:46:34 GMT
Or, and I'm probably just being a tad too suspicious here, some of Jeanne's influence has rubbed off on Annie? Or maybe she brought a spider hitch hiker back from Birmingsham... So we remove all responsibility Annie has for her behavior because it's just too outlandish to believe that she could be that angry? Again, I find that way too simplistic a view to look at such a complex and well-characterized character. Hell, even Jack's own spider-infestation was portrayed as a more complex situation than simply "the devil made him do it." It started off gradual and subtle, happening over the course of a long time, before threatening to engulf the boy completely. It wasn't just normal, normal, normal, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHASUDDENLYNASTY!!!
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 24, 2010 10:47:23 GMT
I really don't get how this is "way out of character" or "not like Annie" or whatever. It seems like such a narrow definition of a person's character. Just because most of the time she keeps herself under firm control that it's impossible for her to have an outburst at any time? We have to define her as always reserved and extremely controlled? It may be weeks for us, but remember the context of time span here, people. In a day she's had a long-secret nasty fact about her beloved mother revealed to her, she then had to deal with a situation she has no idea how to deal with (a boy her age hitting on her), she has to break into Kat's room to cheat off of her yet again, and then she comes back to Rey being on her case about it before going on to insulting her father (one of the things we know she gets angry about. That's just what she had to experience for that day alone. Before all that she had to go through her mother's death, she had to guide the soul of said mother to the afterlife herself, her father practically abandoning her, all of the life-threatening and emotionally-shocking ups and downs of her stay at the Court, and the whole Jeanne business she still wants to investigate. To top it all off, lets not forget that she's a girl in her early teens. This isn't some hardened veteran with years of experience, nor is she some sort of ultra-disciplined survivor made stoic over the years. At her age could you have kept it together after going through all of that without an outburst at some point? Likely not, because I'm pretty sure no one here as accumulated anywhere near the number of those experiences Annie has had to deal with in a span of a few years. This outburst was a long time coming. It was bound to happen, and the events of the day accumulated to said outburst finally coming. As far as outbursts go, this is remarkably restrained considering everything she's had to put up with. So far, she's only limited her rage to words. A beating would probably be preferable to this level of emotional torment. Remember, she has absolute control over him and is now abusing it to the fullest to rub in that the woman he loved not only didn't love him back, but actively deceived him in order to imprison him in the court (where he's been tortured on a regular basis for years, until quite recently). Whatever Annie's reasons, she's doing a terrible thing here.
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Post by weshtery on Nov 24, 2010 10:52:31 GMT
Or, and I'm probably just being a tad too suspicious here, some of Jeanne's influence has rubbed off on Annie? Or maybe she brought a spider hitch hiker back from Birmingsham... So we remove all responsibility Annie has for her behavior because it's just too outlandish to believe that she could be that angry? Again, I find that way too simplistic a view to look at such a complex and well-characterized character. Hell, even Jack's own spider-infestation was portrayed as a more complex situation than simply "the devil made him do it." It started off gradual and subtle, happening over the course of a long time, before threatening to engulf the boy completely. It wasn't just normal, normal, normal, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHASUDDENLYNASTY!!! Well, no. Hence the not altogether serious nature of my post.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 11:17:20 GMT
A beating would probably be preferable to this level of emotional torment. Remember, she has absolute control over him and is now abusing it to the fullest to rub in that the woman he loved not only didn't love him back, but actively deceived him in order to imprison him in the court (where he's been tortured on a regular basis for years, until quite recently). Whatever Annie's reasons, she's doing a terrible thing here. Well, of course it's a terrible thing. Even a cruel thing. She's angry. People can say the most cruel and nasty things when they're really angry if someone sets them off. Hell, at the height of said anger they can enjoy the nasty things they say or do. After the anger's gone they may come to regret it very much and they might feel like the largest assholes in the world. During an angry outburst, all bets are off when it comes to the cruelty of what can be said. Now, of course, this differs from person to person. But like I said, this is an outburst from a young person who gone through enormous amounts of difficult experiences. Then, what finally sets her off is Rey going on and on about how her own father was some completely unlovable asshole who her mother couldn't have possibly loved. On the same day that she just found out something nasty about a mother she adored. Anything or anyone can set off that kind of rage. Rey picked the wrong thing to say at the worse possible time. Does this excuse her action? No. It is nasty. Does this make it all Rey's fault? No. He had no idea he was pissing her off at the wrong time. Do they both have some level of responsibility for this explosion. Yes. Both their actions are understandable, with differing levels of nasty. Again, I prefer to look at the complexities of the situation than just declare a person morally reprehensible right then and there. Human behavior isn't black and white. It isn't even in shades of gray. It's a complex kaleidoscope of confusing shades of colors which don't have the decency to stay consistent.
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Post by Ulysses on Nov 24, 2010 11:17:57 GMT
She won't even let him wallow in self-pity, she has to force him back into a reactive form so she can rub it in even more. Feeling very sorry for Rey right now, even though he went a little far in his berating of Anthony earlier. This has turned into sadism. See that grin on her face?
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 11:26:00 GMT
She won't even let him wallow in self-pity, she has to force him back into a reactive form so she can rub it in even more. Feeling very sorry for Rey right now, even though he went a little far in his berating of Anthony earlier. This has turned into sadism. See that grin on her face? Yes, it is sadistic? Again, so? One act of sadism doesn't immediately turn people into complete sadists. Schadenfreude, where you enjoy the misfortune of someone you don't particularly like, is a form of sadism. People have indulged in that from time to time. Does that make them utter sadists? No. She's angry. Things are said when one is angry. Horrible things. Cruel things. If you're angry enough, you can even enjoy those things DURING the height anger. Does that mean you'll always enjoy it? That you'll always enjoy doing those things henceforth? That you'll never sincerely regret it? Now, if she keeps on doing this again and again to people close to her, then you can call her an irredeemable sadistic bitch all you like. But during an outburst set off by Rey hitting her below the belt? C'mon, you go to the child of a romantic rival and tell her to her face when she's already annoyed that "I can't believe your mom fell for your cold asshole of a dad when she had me!" and you expect her not to get angry? And during the course of that anger enjoy tearing you down a peg by saying that her mom never really loved you?
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Post by Aviyara on Nov 24, 2010 11:30:26 GMT
Understandability isn't justification. Just because we know why she did it does not make it measured or appropriate or normal or even fully sane.
This is on the order of a kid torturing a hamster with a 9V battery and steel wool because it bit them. The hamster may not be to blame, it may have come hard on the heels of the kid's older brother committing suicide or something equally stressful, but if you walked in on the kid doing this you wouldn't go "Oh, that's normal," you'd take the kid to a freakin shrink because something's messed up here.
She's thirteen, not three. Torture is never the normal response, I don't care how mad you are. Healthy individuals do not torture others because they're enraged. Fist through wall maybe, some nasty words sure, but you let them storm away. You don't duct tape them to a chair when they try to leave.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 11:37:21 GMT
Understandability isn't justification. Just because we know why she did it does not make it measured or appropriate or normal or even fully sane. Which is my point. Then let me turn that around by repeating my counter point. Rey's quotes last page: "I don't know what Surma ever saw in him." "What trickery he must have played to lure her away from me." "Ha! your father was incapable of feeling anything other than disdain!" "...unable to save his own wife. What sort of man would--" In sum: "I can't believe your mom fell for your cold asshole of a dad when she had me! He couldn't even keep her alive!"Said to the face of an already annoyed teenage girl. If we're calling Annie's actions emotional abuse, why aren't we applying the same standard to Rey? God, would you say that to kid her age? A kid who not-so-long-ago lost her mom? A kid still waiting for her dad? And you say that to her with a straight face and an arrogant assurance that her mother surely loved you better than she ever did her father? How is that not emotionally-abusive as well? How is that not a cruel thing to say in any way?
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Post by Aviyara on Nov 24, 2010 11:44:27 GMT
I'm not claiming that what Rey did was right. Nowhere in any of my statements, this thread or any other, have I claimed Rey is some sort of paragon of virtue or innocent in any way.
Annie, however, has taken it one step further than Rey, by virtue of one simple fact:
She could have turned around and walked away at any time.
If she didn't feel like leaving, she could have done what she usually does and ordered Rey to shut up. She could have told him to go back to toy form and not come out until she let him. She had multiple avenues available, including a rant followed by "now shut up and let me do my homework." She had an avenue of escape.
She has just denied Renard his only means of escape. She has done it intentionally, knowing that what she is doing is tormenting him. She has gone from arguing with Renard, to torturing him.
That is my problem. Because torture is not the normal, sane, healthy response to a situation like this. And yet it is the avenue she's chosen.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 11:53:32 GMT
She could have turned around and walked away at any time.If she didn't feel like leaving, she could have done what she usually does and ordered Rey to shut up. She could have told him to go back to toy form and not come out until she let him. She had multiple avenues available, including a rant followed by "now shut up and let me do my homework." She had an avenue of escape. She has just denied Renard his only means of escape. She has done it intentionally, knowing that what she is doing is tormenting him. She has gone from arguing with Renard, to torturing him. That is my problem. And my point has been to point out all the events that could have led to that situation exploding instead of her backing down. again, she's experienced more life and death situations few kids her age have gone through. She experienced all sorts of emotionally-disturbing things as well. And she's so far kept all of that under iron control. All that does not simply just go away just because she keeps it under control most of the time. Out of sight is not out of mind. you can't expect a child to have unbreakable control over her temper. Eventually, something has to give. Then on that very day, all of that crap suddenly piles up and it culminates in Rey calling her dad an asshole Surma can't possibly love. How do you in all reasonableness just expect that the girl just shut up and walk away? Or not explode? Again, turning your point back on you, this is a thirteen year old girl. She is not a hardened veteran. She is not some emotionless machine. She is not someone trained for years to be some sort of super-disciplined stoic Vulcan. She does an amazing job trying to be, but events have show before that cracks were already starting to show in that resolve. The events of he day were the last hammer blow to a brittle wall.
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allec
Junior Member
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 11:54:34 GMT
So, cutting away from Annie a bit, in this page we are reminded that Renard can't lie when talking to Antimony. I wonder why he believes all he said about Anthony, then? I mean, if he can't lie to her, then it has to be more than jealousy. Antimony also seemed cornered to counter what he said; notice how she stutters when stating that her father dedicated his life to saving Surma.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 11:58:39 GMT
So, cutting away from Annie a bit, in this page we are reminded that Renard can't lie when talking to Antimony. I wonder why he believes all he said about Anthony, then? I mean, if he can't lie to her, then it has to be more than jealousy. Antimony also seemed cornered to counter what he said; notice how she stutters when stating that her father dedicated his life to saving Surma. Well, we don't know much of Anthony yet. And, well, there may very well be reason for Rey to think that way. In fact, if Anthony is as cold and callous as everyone who has talked about him has implied, then saying all those things was an even worse decision. A girl desperately trying to convince herself that her father does care on some level would be even more brittle and touchy about suggestions that he really does not. Especially if she's starting to have doubts herself. I've worked with neglected kids. Telling them that, "nope, your parents really don't give a shit" just like that is one of the worse things you can do. That has a big "DON'T DO IT" written all over it in everything I've been trained regarding the handling of neglected kids.
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Post by basser on Nov 24, 2010 12:01:52 GMT
Hot damn, bitch-mode Annie all the way!
Is it bad that I am secretly loving this.
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Post by Aviyara on Nov 24, 2010 12:05:02 GMT
And my point has been to point out all the events that could have led to that situation exploding instead of her backing down. again, she's experienced more life and death situations few kids her age have gone through. She experienced all sorts of emotionally-disturbing things as well. And she's so far kept all of that under iron control. All that does not simply just go away just because she keeps it under control most of the time. Out of sight is not out of mind. you can't expect a child to have unbreakable control over her temper. Eventually, something has to give. Then on that very day, all of that crap suddenly piles up and it culminates in Rey calling her dad an asshole Surma can't possibly love. How do you in all reasonableness just expect that the girl just shut up and walk away? Or not explode? Again, turning your point back on you, this is a thirteen year old girl. She is not a hardened veteran. She is not some emotionless machine. She is not someone trained for years to be some sort of super-disciplined stoic Vulcan. She does an amazing job trying to be, but events have show before that cracks were already starting to show in that resolve. The events of he day were the last hammer blow to a brittle wall. An explosion would have been a completely healthy response. In fact I even said in my last post: If she didn't feel like leaving, she could have done what she usually does and ordered Rey to shut up. She could have told him to go back to toy form and not come out until she let him. She had multiple avenues available, including a rant followed by "now shut up and let me do my homework."But she's not just exploding. She's trapped him here and is forcing him to endure whatever terrible things she can dredge up to make him feel bad. That's not "normal teenage anger" in any sense of the term. Normal teenage anger in this situation is ranting, throwing of mean words, maybe a parting shot as one side storms off. I wasn't trying to say her only other option was backing down. She had a lot of options that an angry kid would have taken - exploding, throwing something, a cold string of carefully-chosen insults to undermine his selfconfidence forever, even just shouting something like "You know what I learned today? Surma tricked you. She never loved you at all! And you fell for it!". She had a lot of other choices besides torture. She still picked torture. That's still not sane.
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allec
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 12:05:16 GMT
mikeymikemikey: Yes, most likely, but I was actually wondering what kind of interaction Renard had with Anthony. I'm not going into whether Annie has her reasons or not. I'm also thinking this is going a little too smooth. Not talking about her rage, but, do you really think the Court would just tell her a big secret like that and then expect her to keep it? I wonder if what the Court really intends is to separate them and snatch Renard while she is away. Manipulation like that would be fitting. Also, didn't Kat say she was coming back soon? I expect something to go (more horribly) wrong in the next few pages, with the homework book still being on the desk and all.
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Post by lissibith on Nov 24, 2010 12:09:13 GMT
Well you are a little angel then. I'm gonna have to agree that you're a little angel if you've never done such a thing or even THOUGHT of such a thing. Either that or you're prone to mental breakdowns. Please keep in mine I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just saying that honestly most people will lash back out at their friends and/or parents ESPECIALLY when your having a very bad day. It may not be to THAT extent, but if I had a day like she was where everything was going wrong and it was building up to an ungodly level I know for a fact that I lash out at people... sometimes quite cruelly. But what also helps in the end is that I've realized what I've said and apologize for it. Er... really? People just can't have different reactions when they're angry? If you've never been this cruel you must have mental breakdowns? I'll keep that in mind for my next fight I guess. Anyhow, on the comic, do I think she's acting in an unreasonable fashion? No, not really. But I do think she's acting in an unjustified one. I tend to agree with Rook. With everything else on top of her, this doubt about her father's character is one she probably has herself. A lot of people seem to think this way of him and he DID abandon her with no point of contact. So she's hurting. And she's not just lashing out, she's very levelly trying to hurt him in return the same way as she's hurting, doubting a person she loves. Understandable, but if there is karma in the world of Gunnerkrigg this'll probably come back to bite her in a major way.
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Post by whattheziek on Nov 24, 2010 12:11:37 GMT
I'm taking this moment to have bit of a 'squee!' at Annie's cruelty. Character Development, huzzah! Also, that evil grin in panel four? Chills man. Chills. After skimming the board and seeing general consesus that yeah, Annie is pissed and being cruel and Reynardine is suffering pretty bad emotional trauma... I guess you guys have said it all really So I'm going to comment on the visuals! Notice how when Annie is being less than saintly, there is a lot of black in her eyes? Like, usually the blue is overwhelming- but here it's all very subtle There's actually only one panel where you can see the blue in her eyes. Pretty cool. Also, the shadows change. When Annie dominates the panel, there is a lot of shadow. When Rey tries to morph, the shadow retreats slightly In the last panel, there is a circle of light around where Annie is touching Rey's head. This could just be pedantry on my behalf. But [Wild Speculation] it looks like she might be about to set Rey's head on fire.[/Wild Speculation] .... I sincerely doubt Annie would do THAT. But in some ways, emotional cruelty is far worse than physical cruelty. WHAT SHALL HAPPEN NEXT IN OUR RAPIDLY SOAPERIZING COMIC?! We shall see on friday.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 12:12:42 GMT
She's not just exploding. She's trapped him here and is forcing him to endure whatever terrible things she can dredge up to make him feel bad. That's not "normal teenage anger" in any sense of the term. Normal teenage anger in this situation is ranting, throwing of mean words, maybe a parting shot as one side storms off. I wasn't trying to say her only other option was backing down. She had a lot of options that an angry kid would have taken - exploding, throwing something, a cold string of carefully-chosen insults to undermine his selfconfidence forever, even just shouting something like "You know what I learned today? Surma tricked you. She never loved you at all! And you fell for it!". She had a lot of other choices besides torture. She still picked torture. That's still not sane. But that's just it. This is not simply "normal teenage anger" because the experiences Annie has had to deal with are decidedly not normal. A girl who's neglected by her only parent would be enough to qualify as not normal. In addition to that this is a girl who has--and I repeat this because this is pertinent--personally led her mother's soul to the afterlife, has almost been killed more than once, has had an intimate looks-see at the rage and hatred of a murderous ghost who was sentenced to die by the founders of the very school she's now living in. That is not "normal" by any stretch of the definition, and you expect her to have "normal" reactions? Those, alone, are going to get to her, no matter how unbelievably controlled she tries to be. In fact, I'm surprised she hasn't snapped earlier. Given all that, I still say it's too simplistic to start calling her some irredeemably cruel sadistic bitch.
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allec
Junior Member
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 12:21:46 GMT
Personally, I was kind of okay with everything up to the last panel. Preventing him to change is just too damn cruel.
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Post by seramina on Nov 24, 2010 12:33:23 GMT
What a comic! (I'm coming out of lurking just to post about it, too... ) I really like the portrait of Annie here, even if it hurts. She's not perfect, she cheats and if she's really angry she can be very cruel. Of course, she has her reasons for that, Rey was absolutely out of line (as has been pointed out).
But I must politely disagree with the people who compare her to kids torturing their pets. I'm not saying it isn't torture, it is, but to her, it doesn't seem this way, I think.
She has absolute power over him, but her lashing out at him shows that she's treating him like a human being (with all that "Surma never loved you"-stuff. If she wanted him to shut up, why not simply say so? She had him shut up for a week once.) Even her cruel order (say the truth!) could have been said to a human (rephrased, of course) and her wanting him to stay in shape is a different version of storming after someone who just walked out of an argument.
She doesn't see how much she is hurting him, and how much she can hurt him by ordering him these things. It's torture what she does, because he can't pay her back in kind, he can't even escape and just not listen to what she said.
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