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Post by strangebloke on Nov 5, 2010 23:04:19 GMT
The monsterous "is Surma a bitch bluh bluh" thread kind of got derailed on this topic, so I thought I would put this up here.
First, a breakdown of recorded gifts A: Body Snatching- Allows Reynardine to take any body with eyes. Used for: wooing Surma, apparently Flaw: Kills the host (although, apparently, not reynardine's first body)
B: Tree control- Allows Ysengrin the ability to animate trees and use them like puppets of a sort. also, quick travel. Used for: harrassing the court/transporting shadows in the court/avenging the spankies. Flaw: Makes Ysengrin shake like an old man. Dependence on it has made him physically weak
C: Coyote Tooth- Kicks butt. Cuts the very earth. Flaw not revealed.
Next up are the things we know. A: His gifts are always flawed, and Coyote knows it. B: For Coyote, giving gifts is the only way he can act against the court. (if he wants to.) C: He doesn't trust/care about Ysengrin enough to give him more, but he DOES trust Reynard. D: The court is afraid of these gifts. (prolly with good reason.) E: Coyote retains his power.
Her are some questions to start off the discussion: 1. Does Coyote care about the flaws? or are they intentional?
2. Why does Anja use the word "desperately" when describing Coyote's attempts to give Rey power.
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Post by Elaienar on Nov 5, 2010 23:23:12 GMT
Re. 1, think about the glass-eyed men. I doubt he intended them to turn out the way they did, but he got distracted and that was that. I'd say it's possible that the flaws in his gifts are there for a similar reason.
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Post by todd on Nov 5, 2010 23:30:43 GMT
Re. 1, think about the glass-eyed men. I doubt he intended them to turn out the way they did, but he got distracted and that was that. I'd say it's possible that the flaws in his gifts are there for a similar reason. He said later on, in Chapter Twenty, that the stars in the heavens turned out the way they did because he also got distracted while placing them there - and even forgot to put a constellation of a coyote in the sky. (As I said once, the really surprising part is that he didn't start off with a coyote-constellation.)
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 5, 2010 23:32:20 GMT
Re. 1, think about the glass-eyed men. I doubt he intended them to turn out the way they did, but he got distracted and that was that. I'd say it's possible that the flaws in his gifts are there for a similar reason. true, and he messed up the stars as well. (EDIT:ninja'd) Nonetheless, its hard not to appreciate the irony of his gifts. Ysengrin wants strength, and he gets it, at the price of looking feeble and old. Reynardine wants to be friends with humanity, and he ends by killing them and being imprisoned by them. I can totally picture him laughing at both of those situations.
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Post by Rex on Nov 6, 2010 1:31:42 GMT
Yeah, you've definitely got it covered strangebloke. Those flaws are pretty much the kind of thing Coyote would find absolutely hilarious, and Tom's made it clear in various comments that Coyote does things solely for his enjoyment.
With that said, is it possible that the severity of the flaw scales up along with the potency of the gift granted? If that's the case, there must be a dreadful drawback for Annie if and when she uses that sword.
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 6, 2010 2:35:22 GMT
yeah, and it also explains why the court would be terrified of him getting a lot of coyote's power. The flaws might cause him to accidently destroy the court
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Post by Yin on Nov 6, 2010 6:52:50 GMT
I have never read Ys's gift as deliberately making him feeble. It's a shell around his body that he uses to get around, among other things, and when I first saw how atrophied his real body was, what I thought was that he used his gift too much. Lack of use of his muscles, if you see what I mean.
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Post by jayne on Nov 6, 2010 15:52:32 GMT
Coyote may laugh at the results but he never intends to screw up... he just always does!
If he were a sensible god like his big brother, he'd be able to concentrate and do things right. He's more interested in having fun than being sensible.
When he decided death was a good idea, he wasn't being funny... he thought it was important.
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Post by hanneswall on Nov 6, 2010 15:59:52 GMT
I wouldn't really bundle the Tooth together with Y's terrifying skills of gardening or Rey's inspired ventriliquism, since it isn't really a power that is bestowed upon Annie. It is an object given to her. A powerful one, sure, but an object just the same.
As such I'm not really convinced that it is a certain fact that the Tooth actually has a flaw like the other gifts, aside from maybe(probably) being vastly more powerful than Annie believes.
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Post by Rex on Nov 6, 2010 21:38:42 GMT
Why aren't you convinced? It's Coyote's shtick so far with regards to gifts (this means it isn't just powers granted), and it fits right in with the rest of his character in that he botches things only to find amusement in the failure/misery that's caused.
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Post by jayne on Nov 6, 2010 22:08:59 GMT
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Post by Rex on Nov 6, 2010 23:53:25 GMT
In the this webcomic he certainly does. The Word of Tom section on Coyote makes it pretty clear that Coyote does things because they will amuse him in some way. Whether his intentions are good is irrelevant, as that won't change his track record with the gifts he doles out.
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Post by jayne on Nov 7, 2010 0:27:38 GMT
In the this webcomic he certainly does. The Word of Tom section on Coyote makes it pretty clear that Coyote does things because they will amuse him in some way. Whether his intentions are good is irrelevant, as that won't change his track record with the gifts he doles out. Yes, he does things that amuse him and sometimes those things turn out to have unexpected consequences. Since the consequences are unexpected, you can't say they are part of the reason he does them. He's a trickster, not a sadist.
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Post by Rex on Nov 7, 2010 1:04:37 GMT
Yes, he does things that amuse him and sometimes those things turn out to have unexpected consequences. Since the consequences are unexpected, you can't say they are part of the reason he does them. He's a trickster, not a sadist. Umm, what? You should check out the info Tom gave for Coyote on the wikia. Here's a few peeks into Coyote's motivation from Tom: SourceSourceSourceSourceAccording to Tom, Coyote does things soley for his own amusement and if the results are disastrous? Well that's hilarious too. Sorry to hit you with this wall of links, but I just wanted to get this misunderstanding out of the way. Going by the above, Coyote's gifts are just the latest stop on Coyote's Chuckle Train Ride.
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Post by jayne on Nov 7, 2010 1:09:39 GMT
Yes, he does things that amuse him and sometimes those things turn out to have unexpected consequences. Since the consequences are unexpected, you can't say they are part of the reason he does them. He's a trickster, not a sadist. Umm, what? You should check out the info Tom gave for Coyote on the wikia. Here's a few peeks into Coyote's motivation from Tom: SourceSourceSourceSourceAccording to Tom, Coyote does things soley for his own amusement and if the results are disastrous? Well that's hilarious too. Sorry to hit you with this wall of links, but I just wanted to get this misunderstanding out of the way. Going by the above, Coyote's gifts are just the latest iteration of Coyote's pursuit of chuckles. Yes, I've read all those.. did you ignore what I said?
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Post by jayne on Nov 7, 2010 1:12:58 GMT
Tom and I say Coyote does things for his own amusement.
If I play baseball for my own amusement and I break a glass window, I don't count breaking windows as something I do for my own amusement.
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Post by Rex on Nov 7, 2010 1:16:09 GMT
Ignored what? His intentions may be good, but there's a well known saying about good intentions. I'm pointing out that he has a record of screwing up and having a grand old time anyway. Tom's responses to people's questions about him make it clear that he's done unforgivable things in the past and doesn't regret them one iota, which links back to the initial point (and the first quoted question and answer).
I'm not seeing the problem here. I'm not even asserting he's a sadist, just that his gifts carry drawbacks whether he intends them to or not.
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Post by Elaienar on Nov 7, 2010 1:17:09 GMT
If I read you right, jayne, what you're saying is that Coyote can be amused by the outcome of something he did without necessarily having intended for things to happen in exactly that way. Is that right? Because I think you're both right - Coyote wouldn't necessarily give gifts with malicious intent, but from what we've been shown and told of his character, any problems (however unintentional) caused by his gifts would just be new sources of amusement to him.
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Post by jayne on Nov 7, 2010 1:19:22 GMT
If I read you right, jayne, what you're saying is that Coyote can be amused by the outcome of something he did without necessarily having intended for things to happen in exactly that way. Is that right? Because I think you're both right - Coyote wouldn't necessarily give gifts with malicious intent, but from what we've been shown and told of his character, any problems (however unintentional) caused by his gifts would just be new sources of amusement to him. Yes... he probably thinks its funny that Ysengrin's power makes him weak because Ysengrin could always give up wearing that tree and become strong again. (I asked Tom about that) I don't see him thinking some kid dying was funny.
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Post by Rex on Nov 7, 2010 1:21:03 GMT
Exactly right, elaienar. From what we've seen with his gifts to Renard and Annie he means no ill will toward either, but that doesn't mean he won't laugh at whatever negative effects they make cause. Simple.
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Post by jayne on Nov 7, 2010 1:21:35 GMT
Ignored what? His intentions may be good, but there's a well known saying about good intentions. I'm pointing out that he has a record of screwing up and having a grand old time anyway. Tom's responses to people's questions about him make it clear that he's done unforgivable things in the past and doesn't regret them one iota, which links back to the initial point (and the first quoted question and answer). I'm not seeing the problem here. I'm not even asserting he's a sadist, just that his gifts carry drawbacks whether he intends them to or not. Its "he's done unforgivable things in the past and doesn't regret them one iota" that's not correct. He regretted his son dying and I'm sure that's what Tom is referring to as 'unforgivable' You're trying to make a case saying he'd laugh that off too.
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Post by jayne on Nov 7, 2010 1:23:49 GMT
He does things for his own amusement but not everything he does causes his own amusement.
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Post by todd on Nov 7, 2010 2:07:47 GMT
A bit off topic (though still about Coyote), but this is an odd idea I've had running through my head for a while.
I once speculated in the forum on Reynardine (in his white wolf form rather than stuffed toy form) walking over to Ysengrin in his tree armor, sniffing at its base, then starting to lift his hind leg, with Annie having to call "Heel!" to him before things get out of hand. Someone (I forget who) brought up that, given Ysengrin's short temper, if Reynardine had tried that, he and Annie would probably both be skewered by Ysengrin's branches in a hurry, which is most likely true.
However, after that, I began wondering - what if Coyote walked over to Ysengrin, sniffed at his tree armor, then lifted a hind leg next to it? (And knowing Coyote, he probably would do something like that at some point - though I think Tom's too much of a gentleman to draw it in the comic.)
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Post by jayne on Nov 7, 2010 2:18:11 GMT
I think if you told all that to Coyote, he'd roll on the ground laughing! I doubt he'd do that to Ysengrin though.... it seems too sadistic... it was bad enough Coyote pushed Annie in front of him while he was feeding but I suppose it was important that Annie see that and that Ysengrin knows she's seen it. They seemed to be able to speak better after that.
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Post by Rex on Nov 7, 2010 2:45:57 GMT
Oh, lord todd. Coyote would definitely do something like that and laugh so hard that his eyes would pop out of his head, roll on the floor and start laughing themselves.
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Post by Mylian on Nov 7, 2010 6:13:49 GMT
Tom and I say Coyote does things for his own amusement. If I play baseball for my own amusement and I break a glass window, I don't count breaking windows as something I do for my own amusement. If Coyote was playing baseball and broke a window, he'd think it was hilarious. The unexpected disasters like that are what Coyote lives for.
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Post by jayne on Nov 7, 2010 6:47:52 GMT
Tom and I say Coyote does things for his own amusement. If I play baseball for my own amusement and I break a glass window, I don't count breaking windows as something I do for my own amusement. If Coyote was playing baseball and broke a window, he'd think it was hilarious. The unexpected disasters like that are what Coyote lives for. Breaking a window just isn't hilarious. He'll laugh at the consequences when they're funny... not everything is funny. I mean, I can picture Coyote playing baseball and breaking a window... I just don't see him laughing about the window breaking. Maybe if it broke and the ball hit Ysengrin and made him fall and he had shiny glass sparkles on his butt... When Annie first went into the forest, Coyote performed for Annie because he liked doing it, not because he thought it was funny. If you guys really think Coyote would think it was funny because Rey killed some guy, explain how that would work? I really don't get the joke... how is that funny?
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 7, 2010 8:58:55 GMT
If you guys really think Coyote would think it was funny because Rey killed some guy, explain how that would work? I really don't get the joke... how is that funny? Irony; Rey loves humans but he ends up killing them because of how he chooses to use the gift he's been given? I mean it's rather black as humor goes, but I suspect Coyote would find it hilarious none the less.
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Post by jayne on Nov 7, 2010 14:33:20 GMT
If you guys really think Coyote would think it was funny because Rey killed some guy, explain how that would work? I really don't get the joke... how is that funny? Irony; Rey loves humans but he ends up killing them because of how he chooses to use the gift he's been given? I mean it's rather black as humor goes, but I suspect Coyote would find it hilarious none the less. That's somewhat ironic. It would be more ironic if Coyote gave a gift that saves lives, then it ends up killing them. Still, ironic isn't 'hilarious' To be honest, I think Coyote would consider that boy dying as regrettable but ultimately as uninteresting as breaking glass with a baseball. He'd find Todd's story much funnier because Todd's story actually IS funny.
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Post by jayne on Nov 7, 2010 15:15:15 GMT
When Great Spirit was handing out names and duties, Coyote decided to stay up all night so he'd be the first to choose and he'd get the best name and duty. He wanted to be called "Grizzly Bear", who ruled over all running, four-footed animals; or "Eagle", who lead all the flying birds; or "Salmon", who would be chief over all the fish of every kind. But he wasn't able to stay awake all night and by the time he woke up, all the good names were taken. He was stuck with Coyote because no one wanted to take HIS name. He didn't think this was hilarious: "Poor Coyote's knees grew weak. He sank down by the fire in that great tepee." This character has more depth than you're giving him credit for.
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