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Post by todd on Nov 7, 2010 23:18:07 GMT
I wonder if Coyote's making the ravine between the Wood and the Court, though not exactly a "gift", also falls into this category. While it separates the two factions at the point where their relations are degenerating, the division in the landscape might also have encouraged the humans and the forest-folk to see each other all the more as enemies, provoking a "two armed camps" mentality.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 8, 2010 3:03:33 GMT
Coyote seems to have presented his action in creating the Annan Waters as an attempt to cut off the hostilities... But I can't help but wonder if he intended for this division to provoke that "us vs them" mentality and perpetuate the conflict.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 8, 2010 6:43:51 GMT
Irony; Rey loves humans but he ends up killing them because of how he chooses to use the gift he's been given? I mean it's rather black as humor goes, but I suspect Coyote would find it hilarious none the less. That's somewhat ironic. It would be more ironic if Coyote gave a gift that saves lives, then it ends up killing them. Still, ironic isn't 'hilarious' To be honest, I think Coyote would consider that boy dying as regrettable but ultimately as uninteresting as breaking glass with a baseball. He'd find Todd's story much funnier because Todd's story actually IS funny. It probably wouldn't be so much the actual death as the circumstances surrounding it that Coyote would find funny. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 8, 2010 12:06:23 GMT
That's somewhat ironic. It would be more ironic if Coyote gave a gift that saves lives, then it ends up killing them. Still, ironic isn't 'hilarious' To be honest, I think Coyote would consider that boy dying as regrettable but ultimately as uninteresting as breaking glass with a baseball. He'd find Todd's story much funnier because Todd's story actually IS funny. It probably wouldn't be so much the actual death as the circumstances surrounding it that Coyote would find funny. Yeah, I was trying to think of a funny 'black humor' death that he would like but all I could think of was that guy that ate the 'wafer thin mint' and exploded. |
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Post by todd on Nov 8, 2010 13:26:10 GMT
The talk about Coyote's black humor reminds me of a little vision I'd had about the way Tom could provide a really downbeat ending to the comic (though I don't think he'd go for one). Gunnerkrigg and Gillitie at last turn their most powerful weapons loose on each other, resulting in a cataclysmic explosion that reduces both to a smouldering crater and kills everyone and everything in both the Wood and the Court - except, of course, for Coyote. Surveying the devastation, Coyote shrugs and says "Oh, well, there are plenty of other places left where I can go for a few laughs." As he trots off, he passes Muut and the other Guides who showed up just after the Armageddon-level battle ended, giving them a brief nod and "Hello, there". Muut looks over the devastation in his turn, sighs, and says to his fellow psychopomps, "We're going to be working overtime."
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Post by jayne on Nov 8, 2010 14:14:33 GMT
The talk about Coyote's black humor reminds me of a little vision I'd had about the way Tom could provide a really downbeat ending to the comic (though I don't think he'd go for one). Gunnerkrigg and Gillitie at last turn their most powerful weapons loose on each other, resulting in a cataclysmic explosion that reduces both to a smouldering crater and kills everyone and everything in both the Wood and the Court - except, of course, for Coyote. Surveying the devastation, Coyote shrugs and says "Oh, well, there are plenty of other places left where I can go for a few laughs." As he trots off, he passes Muut and the other Guides who showed up just after the Armageddon-level battle ended, giving them a brief nod and "Hello, there". Muut looks over the devastation in his turn, sighs, and says to his fellow psychopomps, "We're going to be working overtime." This scenario would work equally well for a story about Satan. "Oh well, fun while it lasted..." It just doesn't seem accurate for Coyote's character but no one else is saying anything about it so maybe Coyote is like Satan. I've never considered his character that amoral though. |
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 11, 2010 19:38:14 GMT
Jayne, coyote would laugh at someone dying. He put annie into a situation where she easily could have died and one that was mortifying to ysengrin. Was he sorry? not really. Was Ysengrin surprised. no.
Is he sadistic? of course not. He isn't like Ysengrin who enjoys the death of men. but that doesn't mean he is above making a prank that involves other getting hurt. read the legends! He rapes, murders, and bullies other animals. All with style and humor of course, but nonetheless...
Actually I can see Coyote making his gifts defective for totally rational reasons. Rey comes to Coyote and asks for the gift of body snatching. Coyote isn't a moron, so he knows pretty well why rey wants it, and he doesn't want rey to leave, so he puts in a fatal flaw.
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Post by beatfox on Nov 14, 2010 3:58:46 GMT
I agree that Coyote would probably laugh at someone's death if he had a reason to besides the simple fact that it was a death, but Annie's not a good example of this. It's clear even from their first encounter that Coyote takes a special interest in the daughter of the woman whose death he was expressly saddened by - he's very entertained by her (and by entertaining her), and he would lose that entertainment if she were to die. It's in his own best interests to protect her from harm whenever possible ("No harm will come to you, I swear it"). Actually, even Ysengrin is a similar case: though Coyote obviously doesn't mind seeing him suffer in various ways, he still finds him entertaining and wouldn't want to lose that. And in "The Old Dog's Tricks", it's even hinted that Coyote secretly recognizes Ysengrin's inner worth - though he would probably never let Ys know it outright.
And it seems clear to me that Coyote's gifts being flawed is something that's just inherent in his nature as a fool. Nothing he's said has given any indication that he adds the flaws on purpose, and the fool archetype that pervades so many Coyote legends is centered around accidental goof-ups and momentary lapses of judgment. When he describes the flaw in Renard's power, he all but explicitly states that he doesn't know why the flaw exists when Renard uses it. This seems much too close to a lie if that isn't in fact the case, and we know that Coyote never lies.
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Post by jayne on Nov 14, 2010 4:08:53 GMT
Jayne, coyote would laugh at someone dying. He put annie into a situation where she easily could have died and one that was mortifying to ysengrin. Was he sorry? not really. Was Ysengrin surprised. no. Is he sadistic? of course not. He isn't like Ysengrin who enjoys the death of men. but that doesn't mean he is above making a prank that involves other getting hurt. read the legends! He rapes, murders, and bullies other animals. All with style and humor of course, but nonetheless... Actually I can see Coyote making his gifts defective for totally rational reasons. Rey comes to Coyote and asks for the gift of body snatching. Coyote isn't a moron, so he knows pretty well why rey wants it, and he doesn't want rey to leave, so he puts in a fatal flaw. Coyote would laugh at someone's death only if that death was actually funny. He would be bored by someone's death if it was boring. He would be moved by someone's death if the death was moving. If someone was somehow born in a funny way, he'd find that funny too. So far, in story, we haven't had a death that seems funny at all. Nothing that would make me laugh and I usually laugh when Coyote does. Coyote is super human... he's a superior form of human being. At some point, he took the form of the animal, coyote. He was created by American Indians and he reflects them. He's tricky, he's jealous, he's greedy, he's funny, sometimes he's considerate, sometimes he's caring. He's not a one note character that only has one reaction: laughing his head off at anything. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 14, 2010 4:14:57 GMT
Jayne, coyote would laugh at someone dying. He put annie into a situation where she easily could have died . On a separate note, he didn't put Annie into a situation where she could have easily died, he just looked up her skirt to embarrass her. Had she not spanked him, Ysengrin wouldn't have attacked, but coyote wouldn't have thought Annie was as interesting if she had ignored him. All he did was look under her skirt. |
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Post by King Mir on Nov 14, 2010 4:26:20 GMT
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Post by jayne on Nov 14, 2010 4:27:39 GMT
;D ;D ;D I'd forgotten...when I first read that I was thinking, "COLD NOSE!!" |
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Post by paxjax123 on Nov 14, 2010 5:07:46 GMT
What if someone asked Coyote for the gift of having flawless gifts?
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Post by jayne on Nov 14, 2010 5:25:40 GMT
What if someone asked Coyote for the gift of having flawless gifts? They'd probably have the ability to summon perfect flawless diamonds... and then learn a pile of shiny rocks is pretty useless when you think about it. |
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 14, 2010 19:08:59 GMT
Even if you maintain that not a single death has been funny, you must admit that coyote would have other (pragmatic) reasons for making Rey's gifts flawed. He doesn't want Rey to leave, after all. Also, I wasn't talking about THAT time Annie almost died. I was talking about www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=674True, he was right there to intervene, but still, you must remember he LIKES Annie. How unfunny would his pranks be if they were on someone he DIDN'T like. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 14, 2010 22:28:05 GMT
Even if you maintain that not a single death has been funny, you must admit that coyote would have other (pragmatic) reasons for making Rey's gifts flawed. He doesn't want Rey to leave, after all. Also, I wasn't talking about THAT time Annie almost died. I was talking about www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=674True, he was right there to intervene, but still, you must remember he LIKES Annie. How unfunny would his pranks be if they were on someone he DIDN'T like. Coyote has his own agenda... he wanted Annie to know about Ysengrin and he wanted Ysengrin to know Annie knows.... after this, Annie was able to get along better with Ysengrin than any other human in the story. I can't count that as a time Annie almost died though.... "If it were anyone else..." He was just growling at her.. he had no intention of attacking. Bond villains aside, if you're going to attack, you don't start talking. Besides, Coyote was right there and if Ysengrin tried to attack, he'd be swatted with a giant paw again. The point of a prank is to be funny. Coyote would LOVE the jackass movies.  When he doesn't like someone, he can just kill them and get back to more fun things. We have plenty of examples of Coyote screwing up just because he's Coyote. We have no examples of Coyote screwing up on purpose. You can argue he'd do that because it would be funny but there's nothing to support that's what he's actually done. |
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 14, 2010 22:54:46 GMT
Coyote is super human... he's a superior form of human being. At some point, he took the form of the animal, coyote. He was created by American Indians and he reflects them. He's tricky, he's jealous, he's greedy, he's funny, sometimes he's considerate, sometimes he's caring. He's not a one note character that only has one reaction: laughing his head off at anything. First, he's not a human being. He's a coyote, and he's of the first people, completely separate from humans. Sometimes he appears human, but he's always a coyote. Also, while he may reflect certain aspects of Native American cultures, he is not meant be representative of their values. In fact, as a trickster, he often transgresses the community's values. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 14, 2010 23:11:10 GMT
Coyote is super human... he's a superior form of human being. At some point, he took the form of the animal, coyote. He was created by American Indians and he reflects them. He's tricky, he's jealous, he's greedy, he's funny, sometimes he's considerate, sometimes he's caring. He's not a one note character that only has one reaction: laughing his head off at anything. First, he's not a human being. He's a coyote, and he's of the first people, completely separate from humans. Sometimes he appears human, but he's always a coyote. Also, while he may reflect certain aspects of Native American cultures, he is not meant be representative of their values. In fact, as a trickster, he often transgresses the community's values. I didn't say he was human.. I said a "superior form of human" as in these gods have human characteristics. To say he's a coyote is as silly as saying he's a human. "...the animal-like proto-people of pre-history"Also, I never said he represents their values. Mostly he represents their faults. He still represents human beings. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 14, 2010 23:35:11 GMT
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Post by q3 on Nov 15, 2010 2:09:11 GMT
Not all of his eyes were closed there... |
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Post by warrl on Nov 16, 2010 2:15:33 GMT
Another webcomic I read has an interesting commentary and solution on the problems of being immortals: they'll eventually go nuts from an excess of accumulated memories, so they arrange to - in their own fashion - die every couple hundred years or so. Except... one didn't. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to say that, by human standards, Coyote is insane. |
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 16, 2010 4:23:31 GMT
I wouldn't say that he's insane because he's clearly capable of thinking logically. It's more accurate to say that he's absolutely amoral.
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Post by jayne on Nov 16, 2010 13:30:13 GMT
I wouldn't say that he's insane because he's clearly capable of thinking logically. It's more accurate to say that he's absolutely amoral. I've given this a lot of thought and I'm not sure if I agree that Coyote is amoral. Coyote is no liar, there is nothing causing him to keep his deal with the court other than his word, and they trust him to keep Annie safe... because he said he would. Coyote is honorable. How can you reconcile being honorable with being amoral? |
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 16, 2010 14:50:48 GMT
I wouldn't say that he's insane because he's clearly capable of thinking logically. It's more accurate to say that he's absolutely amoral. I've given this a lot of thought and I'm not sure if I agree that Coyote is amoral. Coyote is no liar, there is nothing causing him to keep his deal with the court other than his word, and they trust him to keep Annie safe... because he said he would. Coyote is honorable. How can you reconcile being honorable with being amoral? Someone can still abide by a deal while having no compunctions about doing other things. It could be a self-interest deal, since Coyote has to realize that the Court has enough nasty schemes stashed away in case he does break the deal (see: Jeanne), that if he breaks it it could result in a mutual-assured destruction scenario. As for keeping the court's mediums safe, if the court's mediums are more like the Court's diplomats to the forest than impartial mediators, then it's a similar situation to diplomatic immunity (eg, if you arrest or harm a foreign diplomat in peacetime you're basically attacking the country they represent, which is grounds for war). |
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Post by jayne on Nov 16, 2010 14:55:00 GMT
I've given this a lot of thought and I'm not sure if I agree that Coyote is amoral. Coyote is no liar, there is nothing causing him to keep his deal with the court other than his word, and they trust him to keep Annie safe... because he said he would. Coyote is honorable. How can you reconcile being honorable with being amoral? Someone can still abide by a deal while having no compunctions about doing other things. It could be a self-interest deal, since Coyote has to realize that the Court has enough nasty schemes stashed away in case he does break the deal (see: Jeanne), that if he breaks it it could result in a mutual-assured destruction scenario. As for keeping the court's mediums safe, if the court's mediums are more like the Court's diplomats to the forest than impartial mediators, then it's a similar situation to diplomatic immunity (eg, if you arrest or harm a foreign diplomat in peacetime you're basically attacking the country they represent, which is grounds for war). So you're saying he's honoring his deal not because of a moral standing but that he fears doesn't like the consequences? I gotta go think on this a bit.  |
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Post by jayne on Nov 16, 2010 15:28:11 GMT
I have to agree... Coyote doesn't do anything because its right or wrong. I'm not sure it ever occurs to him.
When he tried to become Grizzly Bear, he didn't care if he could do the job well or not... he just wanted to be important. We know he'd probably screw it up royally but he wouldn't really care about that, or even admit it was possible for him to screw up. He always seems surprised when it happens.
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Post by Mylian on Nov 16, 2010 15:32:46 GMT
Coyote doesn't keep deals and tell the truth because of a sense of honor or fear of consequences.
Coyote keeps deals and tells the truth because those are the rules of the game he has chosen to play with humans.
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Post by jayne on Nov 16, 2010 15:43:19 GMT
Coyote doesn't keep deals and tell the truth because of a sense of honor or fear of consequences. Coyote keeps deals and tells the truth because those are the rules of the game he has chosen to play with humans. That's a good way to put it. That's why I crossed out fear... he doesn't actually fear anything from the humans, he just likes to play the game. |
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 16, 2010 20:52:24 GMT
When Great Spirit was handing out names and duties, Coyote decided to stay up all night so he'd be the first to choose and he'd get the best name and duty. He wanted to be called "Grizzly Bear", who ruled over all running, four-footed animals; or "Eagle", who lead all the flying birds; or "Salmon", who would be chief over all the fish of every kind. But he wasn't able to stay awake all night and by the time he woke up, all the good names were taken. He was stuck with Coyote because no one wanted to take HIS name. He didn't think this was hilarious: "Poor Coyote's knees grew weak. He sank down by the fire in that great tepee." This character has more depth than you're giving him credit for. you are quoting the tales extensively, which may or may not have actual relevance to his portayal in Gunnerkrigg court. I find it worthy to note that in the tale you mentioned, he wasn't sorry because he killed anyone, he was sorry because he didn't get to be king over anything. That may show character depth, but it certainly doesn't show him as being considerate or even serious in any way. He has depth, of course. He has layers and layers. In the part with untreed Ysengrin, he was playing a joke on Annie and Yse, but he was also setting up something for later. Every joke has a longer plan behind it, which leads up to a bigger punchline. Its all for his entertainment, but it has huge depth of character. Anyway, getting away from the segway discussion of Coyote's relative morality and/or character depth, do you think that a possible reason for his not giving gifts to Ysengrin reflects distrust, negligence, or merely a distaste for Ysengrin's petty, humorless and violent course of action? Also, why do you think Anja and others at the court thought that coyote was "desperate" to give Rey powers? Did he want a proxy capable of destroying the court? (Rey wouldn't kill humans though... unless the gifts Coyote gives allow him some control.) Is coyote just sick of being the lone top dog? Does Coyote have something completely separate in mind? |
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Post by pizzasgood on Nov 16, 2010 21:21:28 GMT
Surprising yourself is tricky. It is much easier for somebody else to surprise you. In a similar vein, I find it more interesting to admire other people's creations than my own. What I enjoy about my own creations is the process of creating them and the accomplishment of finishing them, on the occasions where I'm able to consider something to actually be complete. But I don't get very much satisfaction out of admiring them. Some, but not much. Since they're mine, they are familiar and uninteresting. The products of other people's different minds are what are interesting to observe. So I figure Coyote wanted to empower Reynard to give him a greater ability to do things that would be interesting for Coyote to observe and/or participate in. As an aside, this is why I believe we humans were given free will rather than perfection, which to me seem fairly mutually exclusive. Being flawed and in possession of free will, we are infinitely more interesting than we would be if we were perfect. Granted, we are also more self-destructive this way (both individually and as a society), but that's another story... Perhaps that is why Coyote's gifts are flawed. Regarding whether it is intentional, I doubt you can just lump them all into one category or the other. That would be boring. Reynard's gift was apparently unintentionally flawed, and I think Coyote's personality leads him to create that kind of gift in general. However I would find it odd if he never gave people intentionally flawed gifts as well - those are great for pranks. Consider the real-world example of the pen that shocks you when you press the button. Furthermore, he probably intentionally does not put much effort into attempting to make his gifts unflawed, which is different than intentionally giving them flaws - the former is more unpredictable. An artistic analogy is speed painting vs. carefully making an imperfect image. Regarding truthfulness, opting not to (or even being incapable of) lying does not imply morals or even honor. Depending on the way a mind is wired, distruth could be a completely foreign concept (of course this doesn't apply to Coyote). In Coyote's case I'm inclined to believe he maintains truthfulness because it amuses him to do so. He probably enjoys the challenge of tricking people without lying, and also enjoys the possibility of being trapped by his own words. There's also the possibility that he really can lie and has just been tricking everybody into thinking otherwise this whole time.  (Of course I find that unlikely.) |
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When he doesn't like someone, he can just kill them and get back to more fun things. 
(Of course I find that unlikely.)