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Post by emjoseph on Nov 2, 2010 0:40:31 GMT
Is anyone else wondering what that machine does? Since Anja is working on it and the subject of Rey came up, my guess would be that this is the ether computer that was built to contain Renard's power
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Post by Eversist on Nov 2, 2010 0:53:58 GMT
So the issue here is that if Reynard had Coyote's powers, he could still screw with the Court, since it was Coyote that promised to leave them alone?
Also, where is Reynard right now?
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Post by Casey on Nov 2, 2010 1:43:17 GMT
She deliberately collaborated with the powers that be which run the court to incarcerate a being That was never stated. Anywhere.
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Post by christopher on Nov 2, 2010 2:27:19 GMT
Is it ever right to trick someone? No, it's not. Deception is still a lie. And lies always end up screwing people over, most often the victim, but almost as often the teller. Also, the reason I think that Surma was being a bit cold to Reynard is the smile on her face in panel 3 of 793. She knew what she was doing. But hey, I could be wrong, and I ain't calling her anything other than "Woman".
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Post by basser on Nov 2, 2010 2:34:20 GMT
How did this get to seven pages oh my goshhhhh. Casey, this is for you: <3
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Post by legion on Nov 2, 2010 2:50:39 GMT
How did this get to seven pages oh my goshhhhh. In a single day!
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Post by jayne on Nov 2, 2010 3:09:34 GMT
Is it ever right to trick someone? No, it's not. Deception is still a lie. And lies always end up screwing people over, most often the victim, but almost as often the teller. Also, the reason I think that Surma was being a bit cold to Reynard is the smile on her face in panel 3 of 793. She knew what she was doing. But hey, I could be wrong, and I ain't calling her anything other than "Woman". You can't think of a single case where lying and/or deceiving someone is the right thing to do? I'm not saying its the right thing to do all the time but you can't think of a single exception to the rule?
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Post by aaroncampbell on Nov 2, 2010 3:09:45 GMT
Regarding today's actual, visible page... (sorry, just tired of all the jibber-jabber on the forums today)I was just thinking, what are the odds that Rey is in Annie's bag in the first panel? Could he be hearing some of this for the first time, from the Court's perspective? If so, what might the repercussions be? I think he's too big for that purse, and I don't know if Annie would talk about this in front of him instead of just asking him about it. I was thinking it was the same bag as here, which of course Rey was hidden in before, but the closing latch is different. (That could simply be a drawing style change, though; otherwise the bags look nearly identical.) Annie has tried to get answers from Rey before, and he has proven to be somewhat close-mouthed. Whether she did (or should) bring him along to hear what Anja had to say, though, is my question. I doubt she expected revelations like this!
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Post by jayne on Nov 2, 2010 3:14:45 GMT
I think he's too big for that purse, and I don't know if Annie would talk about this in front of him instead of just asking him about it. I was thinking it was the same bag as here, which of course Rey was hidden in before, but the closing latch is different. (That could simply be a drawing style change, though; otherwise the bags look nearly identical.) Annie has tried to get answers from Rey before, and he has proven to be somewhat close-mouthed. Whether she did (or should) bring him along to hear what Anja had to say, though, is my question. I doubt she expected revelations like this! Actually, it might be the same bag... I thought it was a thin purse but it could be a square book bag. The color is right on and how many green bags does one girl need? Still... I guess we don't know if Annie would ask questions so Rey could overhear... /shrug When she opens the bag, you can see two straps like in the current picture... maybe in the first pic, one of the straps is folded out of sight
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ryos
Full Member
Posts: 175
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Post by ryos on Nov 2, 2010 3:18:59 GMT
Basser, I may not agree with the "Huge bitch bluh bluh" opinion, but that picture is comedic gold.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 2, 2010 3:44:37 GMT
Renard is a trickster, but he is fairly harmless. Ha! Reynard the Fox
In one of the very first stories that makes up the Roman de Renart, [Ysengrin's wife, Hersent] seduces Renart, and soon afterwards, when Ysengrin knows about her adultery with Renart, the fox rapes her in full view of her helpless husband: hence the never-ending hatred of the wolf for the fox, and their enduring enmity. (p. xv)
...By 1180, the first Roman de Renart quickly attracted seven or eight more individual or little groups of tales, the best of which is by far Branch I, Le Plaid (Reynard's Trial). For the second time, Reynard is brought to trial at the lion-king's court, this time on a charge of murder, the murder of Chantecler's close relation, Couppée. Prior to this the wolf has once more brought the charge of rape, and other animals have brought other charges. ... Grimbert finally persuades Renart to come to Court, where, eventually, after much entertaining and intriguing debate, Renart is condemned to death. But he gets off. (pp. xvi-xvii)
Tom, of course may or may not follow any of the above, but that is the character our Reynardine is based on. this fox has been alive for at least hundreds of years even without being in his own body... he ain't just a fox! Renard was alive for hundreds of years while in his body. He's only been alive outside his body for about twelve years. Is anyone else wondering what that machine does? Good news, everyone! It's a Farnsworth-Hirsch fusor. Maybe.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 2, 2010 3:55:56 GMT
And something that I can't believe was overlooked in these 7 pages: Annie has been trying to get information about her mum since at least Chapter 6, when one of her reasons for keeping Rey around was because he knew Surma. As we've seen over the subsequent chapters, Rey has been less than forthcoming about his relationship with Surma; of what we've learned about Surma and Rey, exactly none of it has come from Rey himself. After Annie learned in Ch 7 that Eggers and the Donlans knew her parents way back then, I was baffled as to why Annie kept trying to get information from Reynardine, and never bothered asking Kat's parents about her mum. I eventually decided that the in-story reason for this has to do with the issues Annie has shown trusting any adults besides her parents, but I was still hoping she would get over it and just talk to the Donlans. So now, it's finally happening. Annie is talking with Anja Donlan about Surma. You have no idea how happy this makes me.
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Post by Snes on Nov 2, 2010 4:06:27 GMT
And something that I can't believe was overlooked in these 7 pages: Annie has been trying to get information about her mum since at least Chapter 6, when one of her reasons for keeping Rey around was because he knew Surma. As we've seen over the subsequent chapters, Rey has been less than forthcoming about his relationship with Surma; of what we've learned about Surma and Rey, exactly none of it has come from Rey himself. After Annie learned in Ch 7 that Eggers and the Donlans knew her parents way back then, I was baffled as to why Annie kept trying to get information from Reynardine, and never bothered asking Kat's parents about her mum. I eventually decided that the in-story reason for this has to do with the issues Annie has shown trusting any adults besides her parents, but I was still hoping she would get over it and just talk to the Donlans. So now, it's finally happening. Annie is with Anja Donlan about Surma. You have no idea how happy this makes me. I wonder if Annie instigated the conversation by asking Anja directly, or if Anja just decided Annie should know this for some reason.
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Post by Rex on Nov 2, 2010 5:29:30 GMT
That's what I'm most interested in, Snes. We've jumped right into the middle of this conversation, and have yet to see who started it and the context in which it's set.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 2, 2010 6:25:09 GMT
Hell, his greatest crime we know of was entirely an accident, one that only even occurred from motivations that the court deliberately caused. Rey may have known that taking a body would kill its owner. Also, since I stumbled back upon it while looking for the link above, let us not forget that we've previously seen Surma and Rey acting familiar. I'm not sure how much to really read into that, though. I rub my dogs' chins like that, but they're not sapient. I wouldn't rub a friend's face like that. Grr. Reading through Coyote Stories again makes me aggravated with the Court anew ("he didn't want anything that would widen the gap between himself and the friends he had made amongst the humans"), but I'm trying to keep in mind who's telling the story, too. I hope Anja can offer some more perspective.
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unrequited
Junior Member
Tormentor of the Heart, close friend of the Spleen
Posts: 74
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Post by unrequited on Nov 2, 2010 6:54:52 GMT
Reynard officially joins Diego in the "Girl who we loved didn't love us" club. Not a good club to be in. At all.
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Post by scyllarus on Nov 2, 2010 7:06:11 GMT
so okay, i joined the forums just to post this comment.
my theory on the whole thing?
a bridge was built on the court's terms. this probably means that there is some threat to an unfriendly forest creature crossing it.
reynard was friendly with the humans, but we don't see him in the court. this may just be something we don't happen to get to see - for all i know, he had picnics with surma every thursday in the court. but let's assume, for the sake of simplicity, that he didn't want to/couldn't go to the court often, or unless invited. after all, he's not a god like coyote.
coyote wanted him to accept powers from coyote, which threatened to distance him from his friends in the court. why would this happen? reynard could've taken the body-snatching power without ever showing it to anyone in the court. either the court has power-sensing-machines, or else the powers would've drawn reynard closer to the forest and coyote.
so here's the gist. coyote probably wants in on the court for some reason or another, possibly, as stated earlier, to remake the whole place. however, he's promised not to do anything...himself. ysengrin is probably unwelcome at the court, and so if coyote wants to do something behind the scenes, ysengrin would be useless. this leaves reynard, who does have friends at the court.
perhaps coyote wanted reynard to influence surma, the court medium, and was overjoyed when reynard wanted to accept coyote's gift. perhaps he thought this meant that reynard would be a viable puppet in the court (reynard seemed at least friendly enough with coyote not to want to leave gillitie wood, regardless of his otherwise noncompliant personality).
and perhaps surma, knowing at least that coyote wanted to give reynard these powers, and perhaps actually having an attachment to the court, wanted to protect her friend and her home. i see her "bitchiness" with leading him on more as desperation. i mean, come on, how would you feel if you were told "hey, so coyote's going to make you into a danger to the court and they're kind of worried, you should totally come back with me and live in a (as jeanne put it) prison of glass and stone." we don't know that much about his relationship with surma, or his personality at that time, but i don't see him agreeing. in fact, a statement like that seems like it would only give coyote more leverage.
surma didn't know what was going to happen after. i feel like she did what she felt was right at the time, and sadly, whatever the plan was, it backfired.
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Post by fjodor on Nov 2, 2010 10:13:10 GMT
so okay, i joined the forums just to post this comment. my theory on the whole thing? a bridge was built on the court's terms. this probably means that there is some threat to an unfriendly forest creature crossing it. Don't forget the option that one of the terms was that no Courteers could join the Forest. The Court is pretty much deserted, maybe the Court leaders want to prevent too many people from leaving. Welcome to the forum by the way!
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Post by binarytears on Nov 2, 2010 10:27:00 GMT
Perhaps Surma's deception of Reynard had something to do with why no one showed up guide her spirit when she died? And so Annie had to do it.
(Yes, I signed up to ask that. Not the greatest entrance. Hi everyone.)
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Post by todd on Nov 2, 2010 10:44:16 GMT
Perhaps Surma's case is one of "If you lie down with the dogs, you rise up with fleas". There is something dark about the Court, I think, and its objectives. Coyote describes it as "man's attempt to become God", which has an ominous sound. (Of course, Tom's mentioned that he's not religious, but even so, something like that usually is a sign of trouble.) From what we've seen so far, one of its chief goals (maybe *the* chief goal) is to control the ether - with near-disastrous results in the Power Station arc. (Though to be fair to the Court faculty, I don't think they could have expected something like this, especially since Zimmy must be still largely a mystery to them, and they could not have predicted the consequences of her being so close to the Power Station during one of their experiments.) Indeed, the results of the Power Station experiments (Jack possessed, and the etheric spider almost unleashed upon the world) suggest that the forest-folk have good reason for being concerned about the Court's experiments.
I think that the Court faculty and its quest is more misguided than evil - but all the same, without its delvings, would things have reached the point where the Founders decided to murder Jeanne or a later generation of teachers and administrators decided to deceive Renard?
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 2, 2010 11:28:51 GMT
yeesh. the hate of the court is strong with this bunch.
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Post by fjodor on Nov 2, 2010 12:54:02 GMT
yeesh. the hate of the court is strong with this bunch. Based on what we know right now, the most logical conclusion is that the Court is the big ol' meanie that wants to destroy or subdue the Forest. But I am convinced that we have not yet seen Coyote's darker side yet (and quite frankly I can't wait to see that dark side). Just like I would really like to know who is giving the orders at the Court.
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Post by chibicarrera on Nov 2, 2010 12:59:07 GMT
I believe that this is the first time that we've seen Anja with prominent wrinkles. How much time has passed since we last saw her?
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 2, 2010 13:06:43 GMT
yeesh. the hate of the court is strong with this bunch. Personally, I think both sides are pretty bad. It's like the US and the Soviet Union in the cold war; both did some pretty awful things with some pretty poor motivations, and ended up destroying a whole lot of innocent people along the way. The Court and the Forest are just doing things on a smaller scale, is all.
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Post by exdevlin on Nov 2, 2010 13:41:43 GMT
Hold on hold on hold oooooon there. I am not entirely convinced that Surma didn't have at least a fondness for Renard. Anja could be divulging history from a Court Business point of view. Just because the Court's dictations sort of fell in line with Surma's actual feelings for Renard doesn't mean they were her only motivation. She was spending a lot of time in the forest anyway, and I don't think she'd do that if she didn't at least enjoy it and the people within it at least a little. If it were truly business-only, I'd have expected her to only be in the forest when business deemed it necessary.
I also noticed Anja's wrinkles! I think Tom is slowly adding more minor details to his character. Eglamore, when he escorted Annie into the forest, was probably the first time I'd noticed he had prominent facial marks: wrinkles around the eyes, and what seems to be a scar going down his left cheek.
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Post by secondofnone on Nov 2, 2010 13:47:49 GMT
Is it ever right to trick someone? No, it's not. Deception is still a lie. And lies always end up screwing people over, most often the victim, but almost as often the teller. So you're saying it was unequivocally wrong for the Allies to trick Adolf Hitler into thinking they were going to launch the liberation of France in Pas-de-Calais instead of Normandy? In that same vein, and to touch on the Court's decision to sacrifice Jeanne for the sake of fortifying the Annan Water, what about tricking an enemy by concealing your knowledge of his affairs, even at the cost of your own peoples' lives? Keeping the Germans from figuring out that their codes had been cracked was so important to the Allies that the commander of the Crete garrison was forbidden to reorganise his forces, even though he knew when and where German airborne troops would land. If he had, Crete might not have fallen, and the Germans might have been suspicious enough to wonder about the security of their codes. Instead, Crete fell. 15,000 British and Commonwealth troops were killed, wounded or captured. The Germans never figured out that the Allies could read their codes. Was it worth it? In hindsight, yes. We have little, if any, information about why the Court acted as it did in Jeanne's case; we know a bit more about why they saw Renard as a risk, i.e. Coyote wanted to give Rey some of his power, and Rey wasn't bound by Coyote's promise of non-interference in the Court. In their eyes neutralizing Rey, whether by subverting him, capturing him, or killing him, was likely the simplest means to the best end: the continued safety of the Court and its inhabitants. Until we know more, we can't really say whether their actions were justified or not.
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Post by scyllarus on Nov 2, 2010 13:51:49 GMT
so okay, i joined the forums just to post this comment. my theory on the whole thing? a bridge was built on the court's terms. this probably means that there is some threat to an unfriendly forest creature crossing it. Don't forget the option that one of the terms was that no Courteers could join the Forest. The Court is pretty much deserted, maybe the Court leaders want to prevent too many people from leaving. Welcome to the forum by the way! thanks! that is something to keep in mind, but i don't think it's relevant to this particular hypothesis. surma was more or less free to go out to the woods, coyote's statements about how she would roll around laughing and how they all missed her, coupled with her own fond stories to annie...well, the court probably didn't see a reason to stop surma from going out to visit. that, and the idea was to bring reynard into the court, not have surma turn into an animal and join gillitie forest.
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Post by fjodor on Nov 2, 2010 16:20:33 GMT
thanks! that is something to keep in mind, but i don't think it's relevant to this particular hypothesis. surma was more or less free to go out to the woods, coyote's statements about how she would roll around laughing and how they all missed her, coupled with her own fond stories to annie...well, the court probably didn't see a reason to stop surma from going out to visit. that, and the idea was to bring reynard into the court, not have surma turn into an animal and join gillitie forest. Good points. But there must be more to this bridge. I am pretty sure Coyote is powerful enough to make sure the Forest creatures stay away from the Court if he orders it so. And it was Coyote who created the divide (or so he says), but it was the Court who made sure the divide was made permanent. What we have seen sofar is that persons trigger the alarm as soon as they set foot on the grass outside the court, but robot could walk away freely with Shadow2. The way the bridge has been constructed with all those lights, it seems to aim at keeping the shadow people away. It does not seem to stop other creatures (there's no hidden trap that fries you when you step on it). And there seem to be a lot of TicTocs keeping an eye on the bridge as well, while we know that they are not under the control of the Court, or at least not as far as the teachers know. Lastly, it is possible to fly to the Forest, and back. And we just learned that Rey can fly, so the bridge is no requirement for luring him in. with regards to Coyote saying they all loved Surma: he specifically said "all the people of the forest, and there are many". He could refer to the shadow people or to all creatures, but in my suspicious mind he implies there that non-human creatures did not like Surma. Questions, questions, questions....
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 2, 2010 19:48:56 GMT
She deliberately collaborated with the powers that be which run the court to incarcerate a being who had not, as far as we know, done any harm towards them or expressed ill intent. We don't know that the intention was to incarcerate Renard. They may have wanted to turn him to the Court's side. He was not manipulated by the Court into accepting Coyote's power, as far as we know. All evidence suggests that he obtained them specifically so that he could pursue a romantic relationship with Surma, which suggests that Surma turned him down at some point. That's not true. Reynardine had experimented with his new powers before possessing the young man, and knew that his actions would result in murder. He did it anyways.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 2, 2010 20:03:08 GMT
How did this get to seven pages oh my goshhhhh. Casey, this is for you: <3 Love this. No, it's not. Deception is still a lie. And lies always end up screwing people over, most often the victim, but almost as often the teller. An angry-looking man knocks onto your door, holding a gun, and demands to know where your best friend is. Your best friend is in the next room. Do you tell the truth? I know some philosophers would say that your moral imperative would be to tell the truth no matter what, but they can kiss my ass. Besides serious cases, there are also harmless white lies that protect people's feelings and joking lies and pranks. There's nothing inherently immoral about the act of lying.
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