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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 20:19:17 GMT
Is that to say that you believe that the scenario I offered, where Surma is doing this to try to save Renard from being killed by the Court, is implausible? When there is no more or less evidence for it than the scenario that she is willingly and spitefully going along with orders from the Court to break his heart and deceive him? I believe it is implausible because the court has not been shown to have the ability to send assassins into the forest to kill people at will. A) Rey isn't a person, and B) I'm not sure how they'd kill him anyway. I don't see this preventing them from trying though. Eglamore has a lot of weapons and something broke them up. Maybe Eglamore was told to kill him. Then Surma broke up with him and did this instead! (I'm not saying any of this is true, but it IS plausible)
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 20:20:07 GMT
Based on Anya's close friendship with Surma, and since Anya raised Kat to be who she is, I'd say there is more evidence that Surma was acting rightfully somehow. We just don't know how yet. But Tom likes to pull the rug out from under us like this... "oh look, she's evil... *removes the veil* TADA, no she's not!" People can be good most of the time and still sometimes do bad things. This is very true! We just don't know if this is one of those cases or not.
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 1, 2010 20:21:12 GMT
People can be good most of the time and still sometimes do bad things. But then they typically think they have good reasons for doing it, or they are being careless. Surma is clearly not being careless. are you even disagreeing with us??? Lay off it. seriously. Wait for more comics to come out before you open your piehole again. We don't have enough to go off of.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 20:21:34 GMT
I believe it is implausible because the court has not been shown to have the ability to send assassins into the forest to kill people at will. Guess we'll have to wait and see just how Ysengrin lost that ear that has the bismuth symbol over it in the Third Treatise. It's probably not going to be killer assassins.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 1, 2010 20:23:35 GMT
That depends on your definition of what a person is. I would say that anything capable of communication and abstract thought on a level similar to humans' capabilities would count as a person.
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 1, 2010 20:24:59 GMT
once again, just because they can't doesn't mean that they wouldn't try. I don't think its likely, but hey, it could happen.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 20:25:10 GMT
That depends on your definition of what a person is. I would say that anything capable of communication and abstract thought on a level similar to humans' capabilities would count as a person. I'm not saying he's less than a person...I think he's more than a person. Point is, people aren't that hard to kill and I think shooting Rey with an arrow would just annoy him.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 1, 2010 20:25:59 GMT
Guess we'll have to wait and see just how Ysengrin lost that ear that has the bismuth symbol over it in the Third Treatise. It's probably not going to be killer assassins. You seem to be romanticizing the idea of assassins. They don't have to be crazy awesome super soldiers. It could just be a guy with a gun. Or a bow. Or a pointy stick, if he's sneaky enough.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 20:26:57 GMT
but not fresh fruit?
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Post by Casey on Nov 1, 2010 20:28:22 GMT
People can be good most of the time and still sometimes do bad things. Let's look at just this statement, though, take it as being pretty much universally true (or at least, I wouldn't really disagree with it). Would you agree or disagree that those good people, who sometimes do bad things, deserve to be called "Holy Shit, you're a HUGE BITCH bluh bluh"?
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 1, 2010 20:28:59 GMT
That depends on your definition of what a person is. I would say that anything capable of communication and abstract thought on a level similar to humans' capabilities would count as a person. I'm not saying he's less than a person...I think he's more than a person. Point is, people aren't that hard to kill and I think shooting Rey with an arrow would just annoy him. Renard is a fox. He is not a god, a demigod, or an insanely powerful wizard. He's a smart fox that represents the peasants' struggle against the upper classes, but a fox nonetheless. He knows some etheric tricks, but he doesn't have crazy powers at this point, and the only reason a pack of hounds and some hunters couldn't take him down is because he's really clever. Coyote is a god; Renard is a fox.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 20:30:45 GMT
I'm not saying he's less than a person...I think he's more than a person. Point is, people aren't that hard to kill and I think shooting Rey with an arrow would just annoy him. Renard is a fox. He is not a god, a demigod, or an insanely powerful wizard. He's a smart fox that represents the peasants' struggle against the upper classes, but a fox nonetheless. He knows some etheric tricks, but he doesn't have crazy powers at this point, and the only reason a pack of hounds and some hunters couldn't take him down is because he's really clever. Coyote is a god; Renard is a fox. this fox has been alive for at least hundreds of years even without being in his own body... he ain't just a fox!
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Post by strangebloke on Nov 1, 2010 20:34:30 GMT
the problem is not killing renard. The court has resources we don't know about.
The problem is getting those resources into the heart of th forest and killing coyote's pal.
not happening. But they might be dumb enough to try. Anyway, this is just speculation.
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Post by fjodor on Nov 1, 2010 20:40:36 GMT
I believe it is implausible because the court has not been shown to have the ability to send assassins into the forest to kill people at will. I thought Rey was always on the court's side, (but I may be wrong there). Seeing that he can fly, the Annan waters would not stop him. So getting him to come to the Court would not have to be so difficult and killing him would be relatively easy (assuming he could be killed in his own body, after all he is a mythical creature himself). But I guess we can think of dozens of theories that would make it justifiable for Surma to behave the way she did. Me, I think (ab)using someone's love to trick that person crosses some important moral boundaries. (I do not believe all is fair in love and war.) So even if it turns out Surma's behaviour is justifiable, it doesn't mean she has no moral responsibility for her actions. In short, what we really need right now is someone who can hack into Tom's computer to put this entire chapter online so we can stop guessing. ;D
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 20:42:59 GMT
People can be good most of the time and still sometimes do bad things. Let's look at just this statement, though, take it as being pretty much universally true (or at least, I wouldn't really disagree with it). Would you agree or disagree that those good people, who sometimes do bad things, deserve to be called "Holy Shit, you're a HUGE BITCH bluh bluh"? "..." It's probably not going to be killer assassins. You seem to be romanticizing the idea of assassins. They don't have to be crazy awesome super soldiers. It could just be a guy with a gun. Or a bow. Or a pointy stick, if he's sneaky enough. Well yes, they could have sent a bunch of serbian anarchists to do the job too, but in this case I'm pretty sure that would make the attempt patently obvious! and would have lead to a major breakdown of diplomatic relations between the two sides (and probably a war). This fact would not have escaped the court's bosses, who it seems abundantly clear didn't want a war at all. I mean think about this, if Rey is killed off, then who does Coyote have to give godlike powers to? Ysengrin, right? The perpetually-angry genocidal guy with the wooden powered-armor body? Or maybe some completely unknown person (better the devil you know)? Look, my point is that the whole scenario of "the court would have tried to kill Rey unless Surma induced him to defect" relies on a number of absurd suppositions, and is thus very implausible compared to the alternatives.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 20:43:47 GMT
In short, what we really need right now is someone who can hack into Tom's computer to put this entire chapter online so we can stop guessing. ;D I vote for this one! ...and the rest of the story too!
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 20:45:36 GMT
The whole point of the "the court would have tried to kill Rey unless Surma induced him to defect" was to show an example of how Surma might have a good reason... it could be any reason.
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Post by Casey on Nov 1, 2010 20:50:19 GMT
I am unclear as to why you didn't answer my question.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 20:56:27 GMT
I am unclear as to why you didn't answer my question. Because it's loaded, that's why. So, as a Chinese zen monk would say, Mu.
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Post by Casey on Nov 1, 2010 21:00:34 GMT
I am unclear as to why you didn't answer my question. Because it's loaded, that's why. So, as a Chinese zen monk would say, Mu. I don't see how it is loaded at all. Someone said exactly those words in this thread, and I am asking you if you agree with them or not.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 21:22:43 GMT
I believe we have come to an agreement about not having enough information to judge Surma's actions.
Anything else to discuss?
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 1, 2010 21:33:20 GMT
Is anyone else wondering what that machine does?
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Post by Casey on Nov 1, 2010 21:39:02 GMT
Is anyone else wondering what that machine does? Tom said they're "Just working on a thing."
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 21:39:17 GMT
Is anyone else wondering what that machine does? Me!! Something under a lot of pressure by the looks of it! That round thing... window maybe?
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Eddy
New Member
Posts: 14
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Post by Eddy on Nov 1, 2010 21:39:48 GMT
I believe we have come to an agreement about not having enough information to judge Surma's actions. Anything else to discuss? Any bets on the massive web of complex feelings between the characters?
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 21:41:51 GMT
I believe we have come to an agreement about not having enough information to judge Surma's actions. Anything else to discuss? Any bets on the massive web of complex feelings between the characters? That's about even odds with Zimmy being mad about something!
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Post by Goatmon on Nov 1, 2010 23:01:24 GMT
So I'm inclined to side with Casey against the Surma haters. She was just following orders. Whether or not she could have disobeyed and still kept her job is debatable, but there's a case to be made that she felt it necessary. Political warfare is still war, even when it doesn't involve bullets, and you sometimes have to do things that aren't very nice to protect your home. I don't hate Surma, but I certainly don't have as much respect for her as a character after learning about her involvement in all this. And I certainly don't think she had zero choice in the matter. We've seen no evidence that there have ever been an abundance of talented mediums. So I doubt she was going to get fired if she refused to do this. She deliberately collaborated with the powers that be which run the court to incarcerate a being who had not, as far as we know, done any harm towards them or expressed ill intent. You can argue how potentially dangerous Reynardine is, with his body-snatching powers and all, but he never had those powers until he was manipulated by the court into accepting them from Coyote. Hell, his greatest crime we know of was entirely an accident, one that only even occurred from motivations that the court deliberately caused. It isn't their fault that a member of the court died, no, but it IS their fault (including Surma's) that he had a serious desire to infiltrate the court in the first place. They wanted Renard put away so they wouldn't have to worry about him, so they engineered an excuse to do so. The greater sin lies with them for orchestrating the whole mess, made possible by Surma, in the first place. However you want to look at it, the the self-centered attitude that led to Jeanne's death is apparently still a predominant factor in the court's current leadership.
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Post by todd on Nov 1, 2010 23:12:49 GMT
Not to mention that both the Jeanne incident and the Reynardine incident suggest that the Court doesn't seem to even consider other options - like negotiating with the forest-folk over the forest-folk's grievances (perhaps difficult with people like Coyote and Ysengrin).
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Post by aaroncampbell on Nov 1, 2010 23:21:44 GMT
Regarding today's actual, visible page... (sorry, just tired of all the jibber-jabber on the forums today)I was just thinking, what are the odds that Rey is in Annie's bag in the first panel? Could he be hearing some of this for the first time, from the Court's perspective? If so, what might the repercussions be?
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 23:28:04 GMT
Regarding today's actual, visible page... (sorry, just tired of all the jibber-jabber on the forums today)I was just thinking, what are the odds that Rey is in Annie's bag in the first panel? Could he be hearing some of this for the first time, from the Court's perspective? If so, what might the repercussions be? I think he's too big for that purse, and I don't know if Annie would talk about this in front of him instead of just asking him about it.
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