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Post by Max on Nov 1, 2010 7:01:03 GMT
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Alex
Full Member
Posts: 165
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Post by Alex on Nov 1, 2010 7:01:46 GMT
When Coyote split the Court from the Forest..?
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Post by Fhqwhgads on Nov 1, 2010 7:02:18 GMT
ooooh. um... I just lost a bit of respect for Surma here. sorry. edit: When Coyote split the Court from the Forest..? well yeah, he said so himself way back on like Annie's first visit to the Forest.
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Post by Max on Nov 1, 2010 7:03:12 GMT
When Coyote split the Court from the Forest..? YeahI guess Annie's gotten more comfortable asking adults for advice. What started this discussion?
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Post by edzepp on Nov 1, 2010 7:03:20 GMT
Edit: Well, it seems 2 people have already answered that question.
My contribution for this page: Wait, what?
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Post by Aurelia Verity on Nov 1, 2010 7:10:48 GMT
I love how we labor to build all these theories and then a single page from Tom crashes them in one fell swoop. And them we start all over again. My question now is, is the current Renard aware that he was being manipulated by Court/Surma?
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Post by basser on Nov 1, 2010 7:13:41 GMT
Holy shit, Surma's a huge bitch! (Bluh bluh.)
I have to admit I actually didn't expect her to turn out to be such a hussy. :\
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monte
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by monte on Nov 1, 2010 7:13:51 GMT
Well that was kind of an unexpected little bomb... I mean it's one thing for Renard to love Surma and want to woo her, is a bit of another thing for Surma to actually play off that.
Granted they didn't necessarily want to him imprisoned in the court, but they had little choice after he wound up killing someone to do it.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 1, 2010 7:15:28 GMT
This definitely seems to put Paz's estimation of the court back into the "naive" bin. It also firms my belief that Annie, et al., are doing the right thing by not bringing Jeanne's plight to the attention of the establishment.
It would be a shame if, just when she's starting to get some training, this thread with Renard were to convince Annie that she doesn't want to be the Court's medium. Given how powerfully she reacted with regard to Renard in the past, I wouldn't discount it.
Also: Coyote is good. The Court should really just leave him alone. Notice how it was the Court's plan that finally enabled Coyote's success - Renard had turned him down for a long time before Surma came along.
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Post by Rex on Nov 1, 2010 7:16:05 GMT
Whoa. This is one hell of a surprise, though I'm glad Tom added more to Surma than just "She was fiery, pretty and liked by most".
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 7:20:56 GMT
Well, well. It seems that Surma was more like the court's agent than a neutral mediator, if she was willing to go along with this scheme. I wonder what they promised her in return (if anything)? Edit: Disagree; he unilaterally split the forest from the court and screwed a lot of people on both sides over in the process, just to begin with. He's also fond of giving people gifts with nasty side effects that he conveniently fails to mention, and putting people into bad situations 'for the lulz'. Basically, he's like a 4chan troll given the powers of a god.
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Post by Casey on Nov 1, 2010 7:29:00 GMT
I'm bothered by how people are so very quick to call Surma names here and such. I would have to go back and look to see if it's any of the same people who said bad things about Jeanne because she -didn't- do the job the Court asked of her.
Surma had a job to do and she did it. In Ties, we saw that the Forest was a credible threat... one of its creatures almost killed Surma, Donny, and Anja. It stands to reason then that 10 years later, if the Court said that Renard was dangerous, that she would believe it.
I mean how many people actually thought Surma reciprocated Rey's feelings, before reading this chapter? How would that have even been possible? I don't see how this changes Surma's character at all.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 7:34:43 GMT
I'm bothered by how people are so very quick to call Surma names here and such. I would have to go back and look to see if it's any of the same people who said bad things about Jeanne because she -didn't- do the job the Court asked of her. Surma had a job to do and she did it. In Ties, we saw that the Forest was a credible threat... one of its creatures almost killed Surma, Donny, and Anja. It stands to reason then that 10 years later, if the Court said that Renard was dangerous, that she would believe it. I mean how many people actually thought Surma reciprocated Rey's feelings, before reading this chapter? How would that have even been possible? I don't see how this changes Surma's character at all. It changes her character because now we know she (maybe willingly) did bad things to people who probably didn't deserve it for questionable reasons. We didn't know that before. Edit: what's more, her job description was 'impartial mediator' not 'agent provocateur', and not being a soldier or otherwise in the military, she could easily have refused to do the job if she disagreed with it.
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kitty
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by kitty on Nov 1, 2010 7:34:46 GMT
Well... That's saddening. I was really hoping for something less cruel from Surma. Hopefully this is an inaccurate interpretation of the past.
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Post by Goatmon on Nov 1, 2010 7:35:41 GMT
WHAT?!
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Post by basser on Nov 1, 2010 7:36:29 GMT
It doesn't change her character at all, really, since we didn't know too much of it anyway. However it still makes her a BLUH BLUH. Also, it's pretty terrible when your job description is "impartial medium" and yet you play for one side.
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Post by Rex on Nov 1, 2010 7:42:54 GMT
attesmythe, how can you say Coyote is good? hal9000 already covered Coyote's history with "gifts", and the legends/myths we've seen so far make him out to be a nasty joker who does things only if they amuse him (even at the expense of others).
It's not hard to see why the Court would not like another creature like him made into a god.
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monte
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by monte on Nov 1, 2010 7:43:53 GMT
I'm bothered by how people are so very quick to call Surma names here and such. I would have to go back and look to see if it's any of the same people who said bad things about Jeanne because she -didn't- do the job the Court asked of her. Surma had a job to do and she did it. In Ties, we saw that the Forest was a credible threat... one of its creatures almost killed Surma, Donny, and Anja. It stands to reason then that 10 years later, if the Court said that Renard was dangerous, that she would believe it. I mean how many people actually thought Surma reciprocated Rey's feelings, before reading this chapter? How would that have even been possible? I don't see how this changes Surma's character at all. It changes her character because now we know she (maybe willingly) did bad things to people who probably didn't deserve it for questionable reasons. We didn't know that before. eh i find that to be a bit of an exaggeration... We know Surma wanted to attract Renard to the court, however that does not necessarily mean she meant to imprison him. The original intention could have been that they wanted Renard to leave the forest and join the court... Unfortunatly things would fly south when Renard, unexpectedly, winds up killing someone to get into the court, as such a murder would consitute punishment... Really as far as we can see, her only crime in this case is leading Renard on; it's a dickish thing to do but its not really all that horrible. Now it would be a different story if she knew that the court intended to imprison Renard from the beginning
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 7:52:21 GMT
It changes her character because now we know she (maybe willingly) did bad things to people who probably didn't deserve it for questionable reasons. We didn't know that before. eh i find that to be a bit of an exaggeration... We know Surma wanted to attract Renard to the court, however that does not necessarily mean she meant to imprison him. The original intention could have been that they wanted Renard to leave the forest and join the court... Unfortunatly things would fly south when Renard, unexpectedly, winds up killing someone to get into the court, as such a murder would consitute punishment... Really as far as we can see, her only crime in this case is leading Renard on; it's a dickish thing to do but its not really all that horrible. Now it would be a different story if she knew that the court intended to imprison Renard from the beginning If she wanted him to join the court, surely she could have just asked him straight up? I don't think he needed human form to come with her. What's more, what if he'd come over without killing anyone? She'd have to break the news that she wasn't actually into him eventually, and I can't imagine that going over well. Anyway, we don't know what she knew beforehand, or what her superiors' plans for Rey were, but I suspect they weren't doing it with good intentions. Finally, I remembered who this was reminding me of: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mata_Hari
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blastdragon
Junior Member
The Flying Dutchman
Posts: 65
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Post by blastdragon on Nov 1, 2010 7:53:25 GMT
But a really big WHAT! is that the site is offline. ):
EDIT: Tried it on different browser and computers, it seems like the site is really off...
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Post by Casey on Nov 1, 2010 8:01:36 GMT
If she wanted him to join the court, surely she could have just asked him straight up? First of all, by "she" you mean "they", because she was just doing as she was told to do. Secondly, how do you know that wasn't exactly their plan? We know from Coyote Stories that the reason Rey didn't want to take Coyote's powers is because he felt it would alienate him from his "friends" in the Court. For all you know, the Court only told Surma to allow Renard to continue "courting" her to try to give him a little more incentive to switch sides... not knowing that he would go off and kill someone. Basically the Court's plan backfired but that doesn't mean it was evil and malicious to start with. Plus, you don't know what Surma actually felt towards Renard despite what's been said. The Court just wanted Renard to be lured to the Court... we don't know what that means. And Renard would be a pretty poor trickster demigod if he weren't able to detect duplicity in Surma, so it's likely she was fond of him and the Court was just pressing that to their advantage. Oh but no, go ahead and instantly change your whole opinion on a character because one third party entity made a comment that you don't really know what it means.
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Post by Amethyst on Nov 1, 2010 8:12:44 GMT
Coyote is good in the sense that he is good at what he does. That is, make tricks and eventually get his way. I think that's what was meant.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 8:15:04 GMT
If she wanted him to join the court, surely she could have just asked him straight up? First of all, by "she" you mean "they", because she was just doing as she was told to do. Secondly, how do you know that wasn't exactly their plan? We know from Coyote Stories that the reason Rey didn't want to take Coyote's powers is because he felt it would alienate him from his "friends" in the Court. For all you know, the Court only told Surma to allow Renard to continue "courting" her to try to give him a little more incentive to switch sides... not knowing that he would go off and kill someone. Basically the Court's plan backfired but that doesn't mean it was evil and malicious to start with. Plus, you don't know what Surma actually felt towards Renard despite what's been said. The Court just wanted Renard to be lured to the Court... we don't know what that means. And Renard would be a pretty poor trickster demigod if he weren't able to detect duplicity in Surma, so it's likely she was fond of him and the Court was just pressing that to their advantage. My first impression here based on the information we've been given is not a good one. It could be as you say, but we don't really have any evidence for it. please, tell me more about my opinions, since you're obviously a telepathic expert :3
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Post by Tobu Ishi on Nov 1, 2010 8:19:05 GMT
An interesting twist indeed! ;D
I wonder what Surma's thoughts were on being requested to do this thing by the Court? And hmm, does the fact that they asked her to lead Reynard on preclude her having any feelings of affection for him?
Perhaps she had established a friendship with him already, thus giving the Court the idea, much like how Jeanne's pre-existing love for her elf was the inspiration for the less-than-noble plot to bar the crossing of the Annan Waters. Or perhaps she had not!
Either way, one does wonder what her feelings were on the matter! She doesn't seem like the type to like being told to do something morally shady, particularly to a friend...but on the other hand, if the order came from trusted authority figures, who described Reynard as a dangerous demon, it might have seemed like a downright noble task! Yet if she was friends with him (and other Forest creatures) in the first place, she must have had her doubts anyway...
I suppose we can only wait for more information and see! Certainly we should do so before making any snap judgments. We all remember how popular Diego used to be (and how reviled Jack was for a while), don't we? ;D
In any case, I'm pleased to see more depth added to Surma's character! She's always seemed very effortlessly likable, even "saintly", in her on-screen appearances, and yet Eglamore made mention of her deliberately breaking rules and getting away with it. It will be interesting to (hopefully) get some in-depth explanation of her actions and motivations in a morally complex situation!
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Post by hurston on Nov 1, 2010 8:27:03 GMT
What a great twist! Nice one Tom. Reading the above comments, I'm currently on the 'Renard joining the court' rather than 'Renard trapped by the court' side. Coyote, being the trickster, doesn't give away his powers without a side effect, as we have seen with Ysengrin, so the courts plan went awry.
Also, what's that computer they are working on. Is that Anja's computer that she can access with her pendant? I wonder what they are changing.
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Post by basser on Nov 1, 2010 8:39:27 GMT
Mehhhh, I figure leading a guy on is pretty much bitch territory no matter what your intentions/orders. Face it, y'all: Surma's kind of a dick. Personally I think it's pretty awesome. She was kind of verging into Mary-Sue territory there for awhile.
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Post by Alexandragon on Nov 1, 2010 8:44:24 GMT
WTF?! As well as I
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Post by Elaienar on Nov 1, 2010 8:45:12 GMT
Mehhhh, I figure leading a guy on is pretty much bitch territory no matter what your intentions/orders. Face it, y'all: Surma's kind of a dick. Personally I think it's pretty awesome. She was kind of verging into Mary-Sue territory there for awhile. Yeah, nice to know that she wasn't totally perfect ... I guess. I think it's important to note, though, that the situation turned out differently (and apparently a lot worse) than they expected; also, Mrs Donlan's not being specific about what they were going to do once they lured Renard into the Court. And on a side note, I'm extremely curious as to why Mrs Donlan said that Coyote was desperately trying to give his powers to Renard.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 8:50:55 GMT
Mehhhh, I figure leading a guy on is pretty much bitch territory no matter what your intentions/orders. Face it, y'all: Surma's kind of a dick. Personally I think it's pretty awesome. She was kind of verging into Mary-Sue territory there for awhile. Yeah, nice to know that she wasn't totally perfect ... I guess. I think it's important to note, though, that the situation turned out differently (and apparently a lot worse) than they expected; also, Mrs Donlan's not being specific about what they were going to do once they lured Renard into the Court. And on a side note, I'm extremely curious as to why Mrs Donlan said that Coyote was desperately trying to give his powers to Renard. Coyote's modus operandi seems to be to give people gifts and then laugh when those gifts go horribly wrong upon use. He's done it to Ysengrin and he's currently trying to do it to Annie (if that blade is any indication), so Rey was probably just his chosen target at that time. I imagine that someone refusing his gifts probably wouldn't be very amusing to him; that might drive a trickster god to desperation after a while.
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Post by Fhqwhgads on Nov 1, 2010 8:53:55 GMT
It doesn't change her character at all, really, since we didn't know too much of it anyway. However it still makes her a BLUH BLUH. Also, it's pretty terrible when your job description is "impartial medium" and yet you play for one side. 1) I agree 100% with this post and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. 2) O. M. G. THAT FACE. THAT FAAAACE X-D
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