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Post by bellerophon on Nov 1, 2010 9:03:59 GMT
Anja's eyes seem... a lot thinner than previous. Now they just plain look closed. It's distracting me. EDIT: though looking back, I think it might be covering up of the heavily stylised hair that's causing them to emphasize more.
I'm glad for some character development on Surma's part. Although it seems that they got the exact opposite of what they planned; they wanted to keep him away from Coyote to lower the risk of him getting Coyote-powers and instead they pushed him into doing it.
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Post by penguinfactory on Nov 1, 2010 9:11:21 GMT
Huh. I guess Surma wasn't quite the paragon of virtue she seemed to be. Although to be fair, if she was the Court medium she may not have had a choice in the matter.
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ryos
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Post by ryos on Nov 1, 2010 9:27:56 GMT
Ah! A hint at why Renard would so steadfastly refuse Coyote's offers of power. It seems clear they would come with strings attached—Coyote promised to leave the Court alone, but he now wants to do otherwise. If Coyote is an accurate judge of character (and I see no reason why he wouldn't be), then Renard, who "loves humans" as Coyote once put it, would not want to go along. Is Coyote good? Well, I don't think he's evil, but he isn't benevolent or even very nice. He seems not to want permanent harm to come of his games, and he keeps his word and doesn't lie. But he's definitely in it for him. What does Coyote even want with the Court? He's the one that drew the line in the sand. Why not just leave it alone? A thought. He may want to remake it into what he thought he would find when he crossed the ocean: " A place of great power, a place of union." The Court, I gather, would not appreciate being remade. So I'm inclined to side with Casey against the Surma haters. She was just following orders. Whether or not she could have disobeyed and still kept her job is debatable, but there's a case to be made that she felt it necessary. Political warfare is still war, even when it doesn't involve bullets, and you sometimes have to do things that aren't very nice to protect your home.
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Post by fjodor on Nov 1, 2010 9:45:14 GMT
And once again, Tom manages to completely change perspective in just two pages. Whatever Surma may be, she certainly wasn't innocent, and that is pretty much the impression we were given up to now. I wonder how this chapter will develop from here.
As a side note: I don't like the argument 'she was just following orders.' History has proved that that is a pretty bad stance to take.
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Pig_catapult
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Keeper of the Devilkitty
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Post by Pig_catapult on Nov 1, 2010 9:45:16 GMT
Whoa. This is one hell of a surprise, though I'm glad Tom added more to Surma than just "She was fiery, pretty and liked by most". This. I gotta say, the way Surma changed the subject rather than being all "of course, silly" or something on the previous page DID strike me as a bit off at the time, and the way this page resolves that, and just the fact that she isn't the shining paragon of virtue we thought she was makes me happy.
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Post by eightyfour on Nov 1, 2010 9:54:15 GMT
I'll withhold my judgement for now, whether this makes Surma a bad person or not. There's one thing I absolutely agree on though: What she did there does not fit into the role of a medium. Try this one for size: The reason why Surma was bedridden and lost her etheric powers (i.e. she was useless to the guides) is that she was punished by the powers that be for violating her role as a medium! </speculation>
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Post by fjodor on Nov 1, 2010 10:16:55 GMT
The reason why Surma was bedridden and lost her etheric powers (i.e. she was useless to the guides) is that she was punished by the powers that be for violating her role as a medium! </speculation> That actually makes a lot of sense. A medium that cannot be trusted will no longer be used.
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Post by badgerigar on Nov 1, 2010 10:21:59 GMT
So Coyote promised to leave the court alone. It appears that the fortification of the Annan was not meant to keep him out after all. That means some other threat have existed on the forest side.
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Post by Yin on Nov 1, 2010 10:24:56 GMT
Coyote wanted to give Rey powers, and while Coyote had promised to leave the court alone, we don't yet know whether anyone else of the forest did. Including Rey.
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Post by kalechibki on Nov 1, 2010 10:33:02 GMT
What started this discussion? This is what I am wondering more. Why are they talking about Reynardine right now? And what the heck are they working on? Surma was still pretty much a blank slate - what we saw and heard of her gave us hints, but nothing near what we would need for a full picture. This still doesn't give us the best picture, given what Anja has said. Who knows if Surma is acting in character at all. Granted, she had to accept the role she was asked to play, but we don't know of her motivations at all. I know that there are times when my students think I am acting like a jerk by enforcing rules I have not enforced before, but, as a new teacher I have to make sure that I enforce all of the rules, even those I don't agree with, because I want to get tenure and not tick my bosses off. Also, this begs a question in my mind: How long was Surma at the court, and when did she run off with Carver (or without him and catch up with him outside)? Remembering back, Coyote was sure that Surma and Eglamore would be Annie's parents, so it stands to reason that Coyote would have no idea of whatever transpired between them all in the waning days of Surma/James and the beginning of Surma/Anthony. Maybe these current events is what pushed Surma away from all things Court like? Another page which prompts more questions than answers. Awesome job Tom.
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Post by Rex on Nov 1, 2010 10:37:31 GMT
Bingo (referring to Yin's post), that's what I thought about once I read that bit about Coyote promising not to do anything. The Court simply could not take the chance of another god in the Wood, this one not bound by any sort of promise.
That and he has friends in the court, more incentive for him to head over there. What chance would the Court have of reigning in a being like that if it were causing trouble?
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Post by todd on Nov 1, 2010 10:48:06 GMT
Maybe the Founders didn't think that Coyote would keep his word (being a trickster). He might not have broken it literally, but he could have found a way of violating the spirit while preserving the letter (the kind of things that tricksters like to do).
Or they might have feared the other forest-folk, such as Ysengrin.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 1, 2010 10:50:48 GMT
Surma's leading Rey on might have been a bit cold, but I'm not ready to write her whole character off yet. This reminds you of a Dutch exotic dancer who pretended to be Asian and was wrongfully executed as a spy by the French during WWI? Coyote's modus operandi seems to be to give people gifts and then laugh when those gifts go horribly wrong upon use. He's done it to Ysengrin and he's currently trying to do it to Annie (if that blade is any indication), so Rey was probably just his chosen target at that time. I imagine that someone refusing his gifts probably wouldn't be very amusing to him; that might drive a trickster god to desperation after a while. I don't think the side effects of Coyote's gifts are at all intentional. He seems to have genuinely wanted to elevate Renard.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 1, 2010 11:05:38 GMT
The reason why Surma was bedridden and lost her etheric powers (i.e. she was useless to the guides) is that she was punished by the powers that be for violating her role as a medium! </speculation> That actually makes a lot of sense. A medium that cannot be trusted will no longer be used. I'm going to go ahead and say this makes no sense at all. The position of medium cannot be taken away by any mystical powers that be. The medium is a position appointed by the Court, which is the organization that had Surma act as the bait in the honey pot.
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Post by Rex on Nov 1, 2010 11:10:08 GMT
I don't think the side effects of Coyote's gifts are at all intentional. He seems to have genuinely wanted to elevate Renard. He may have had the best of intentions behind each of his gifts, but the fact of the matter is that they often carry some sort of drawback for the recipient. I wouldn't be surprised if the misery suffered by those "fortunate" enough to get something from Coyote scales with the power of the gift granted.
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Post by todd on Nov 1, 2010 11:27:51 GMT
In Ties, we saw that the Forest was a credible threat... one of its creatures almost killed Surma, Donny, and Anja. Partly because they had ignored the orders from the Court to get to safety and had gone to see the excitement, endangering themselves for the sake of a thrill. (Much like the next generation sneaking out after dark to see the power station experiments.) Of course, the Court may have to bear some responsibility for it, between its poor internal security measures and its response to rule-breaking being more "don't get caught" than "don't break the rules". We also learn in Chapter Twenty-two that the forest creatures were trying to escape rather than deliberately attacking the Court.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 11:48:59 GMT
I don't think the side effects of Coyote's gifts are at all intentional. He seems to have genuinely wanted to elevate Renard. Based on what, exactly? I mean, we've only heard about this here, and when Coyote (a notoriously unreliable narrator) was telling us back in, what, chapter 20? On the other hand, we have seen that all but one of his gifts to date have been perilous to the user, at best. The one that hasn't had a side effect so far, the tooth he gifted to Annie, doesn't look good either considering that he saw fit to warn her about how powerful it was. I mean, he obviously knows that his gifts have bad side-effects for the recipients, and he's still giving them out regardless.
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Alex
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Post by Alex on Nov 1, 2010 12:09:34 GMT
When Coyote split the Court from the Forest..? YeahI guess Annie's gotten more comfortable asking adults for advice. What started this discussion? Yeah, duh. I was getting it confused with the whole Jeanne thing.
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Post by menschenjaeger on Nov 1, 2010 12:46:01 GMT
Whoah...EXPOSITIONALANCHE I think I have whiplash.
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Post by fjodor on Nov 1, 2010 13:00:07 GMT
That actually makes a lot of sense. A medium that cannot be trusted will no longer be used. I'm going to go ahead and say this makes no sense at all. The position of medium cannot be taken away by any mystical powers that be. The medium is a position appointed by the Court, which is the organization that had Surma act as the bait in the honey pot. True, but the position of a medium or negotiator has to be accepted by all parties. If the Foresters decide that Surma can no longer fulfill the part of medium, the Courteers can jump high and low, but her function as a medium will have ceased to be effective. And look: she is floating. It is not far-fetched to speculate that she got that power from Coyote, or that Coyote can influence that ability. If he'd take away Surma's floatation powers at the wrong moment, she could easily break her spine...
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Post by djublonskopf on Nov 1, 2010 13:11:40 GMT
And look: she is floating. It is not far-fetched to speculate that she got that power from Coyote, or that Coyote can influence that ability. If he'd take away Surma's floatation powers at the wrong moment, she could easily break her spine... It's not unreasonable to guess that. She is doing it with her eyes open, even. But Coyote did tell Annie that if she practiced, she would be able to lift her own body . . . so it's also not unreasonable to assume Surma's just been practicing. As for what weakened Surma . . . maybe this isn't the place for it, but I've been wondering if perhaps she got something worse than a cheek scratch.
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Post by q3 on Nov 1, 2010 13:23:04 GMT
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Post by skwerlie on Nov 1, 2010 13:28:16 GMT
I have to say, I joined just because this discussion frustrates me so much! Isn't one of the key points of Tom's characterization that nobody is one-dimensional? Good people sometimes do bad things, perhaps even with the best of intentions. I don't think we can say "Surma is a cold-hearted hussy bitch!" from what little we've seen. I'm reminded, as are others, of the discussion around Jeanne when she acted poorly toward Diego. The situation shifted entirely in subsequent pages, and I don't doubt something of that nature will happen with this newest revelation.
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Post by legion on Nov 1, 2010 13:52:13 GMT
Suddenly, character depth!
Tom hasn't loss any of his power when it comes to splitting audience about his characters.
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Nov 1, 2010 14:09:59 GMT
Wow, mood whiplash to the max.
From the previous comic, I thought Surma was just being a tease. Tom, too, for that matter, with his abrupt ending to the flashback.
Now we are in the depths of a nasty plot. Poor Kat, she's getting it again. She grew up in the Court and is now being exposed to all its vile machinations - from the distant and not-so-distant past.
And Annie: is she getting the feeling that she will be more than a mediator? Hmmmmm....
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 14:10:20 GMT
I don't think the side effects of Coyote's gifts are at all intentional. He seems to have genuinely wanted to elevate Renard. Based on what, exactly? I mean, we've only heard about this here, and when Coyote (a notoriously unreliable narrator) was telling us back in, what, chapter 20? On the other hand, we have seen that all but one of his gifts to date have been perilous to the user, at best. The one that hasn't had a side effect so far, the tooth he gifted to Annie, doesn't look good either considering that he saw fit to warn her about how powerful it was. I mean, he obviously knows that his gifts have bad side-effects for the recipients, and he's still giving them out regardless. Coyote, from legend and Tom's representation of him, is not a perfect being. He loves to trick people but he just plain screws up from time to time. He didn't mean to create glass eyed men, he was trying to make regular people. He created death but didn't realize it was a permanent condition. The side effect of being an imperfect trickster is, even when he intends to do good things, if it screws up, no one can tell if he was just playing a trick or not. In this case, I think he was upset... he didn't laugh about it.
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Post by Snes on Nov 1, 2010 14:11:12 GMT
So anyone want to take a guess as to what the thing they're working on is?
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 14:16:11 GMT
I have to say, I joined just because this discussion frustrates me so much! Isn't one of the key points of Tom's characterization that nobody is one-dimensional? Good people sometimes do bad things, perhaps even with the best of intentions. I don't think we can say "Surma is a cold-hearted hussy bitch!" from what little we've seen. I'm reminded, as are others, of the discussion around Jeanne when she acted poorly toward Diego. The situation shifted entirely in subsequent pages, and I don't doubt something of that nature will happen with this newest revelation. Welcome and I agree. I've wondered since this page, why Coyote said Rey had been 'tricked" I assumed they tricked him just to capture him because he killed someone. Now it seems he was tricked into sneaking over which motivated him to kill someone. I wonder if Coyote knows it was Surma who tricked Rey. He didn't seem overjoyed at seeing Surma again when he first saw Annie and thought it was her.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 14:21:00 GMT
"We wanted to lure him into the court" sounds like they wanted to separate Rey from Coyote before Coyote could give him any powers... a preemptive thing that shouldn't have bothered Rey at all, since he did have human friends. Surma may have thought Rey could just live at the court instead of in the forest and everything would be fine... like he's doing now with Annie.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 14:23:51 GMT
Based on what, exactly? I mean, we've only heard about this here, and when Coyote (a notoriously unreliable narrator) was telling us back in, what, chapter 20? On the other hand, we have seen that all but one of his gifts to date have been perilous to the user, at best. The one that hasn't had a side effect so far, the tooth he gifted to Annie, doesn't look good either considering that he saw fit to warn her about how powerful it was. I mean, he obviously knows that his gifts have bad side-effects for the recipients, and he's still giving them out regardless. Coyote, from legend and Tom's representation of him, is not a perfect being. He loves to trick people but he just plain screws up from time to time. He didn't mean to create glass eyed men, he was trying to make regular people. He created death but didn't realize it was a permanent condition. The side effect of being an imperfect trickster is, even when he intends to do good things, if it screws up, no one can tell if he was just playing a trick or not. In this case, I think he was upset... he didn't laugh about it. He doesn't seem too broken up about Ysengrin, or even very much about Reynardine for that matter. And like I said, he keeps doing these things even though he knows it will end badly, so it can't be upsetting him all that much.
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