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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 14:35:30 GMT
Coyote, from legend and Tom's representation of him, is not a perfect being. He loves to trick people but he just plain screws up from time to time. He didn't mean to create glass eyed men, he was trying to make regular people. He created death but didn't realize it was a permanent condition. The side effect of being an imperfect trickster is, even when he intends to do good things, if it screws up, no one can tell if he was just playing a trick or not. In this case, I think he was upset... he didn't laugh about it. He doesn't seem too broken up about Ysengrin, or even very much about Reynardine for that matter. And like I said, he keeps doing these things even though he knows it will end badly, so it can't be upsetting him all that much. Not TOO broken up, but not laughing... when he plays a trick, he laughs at the thought of it. And yes, like all us imperfect beings, we screw up and continue to do things that may screw up. The only way not to screw up is to do nothing at all...and then you've screwed up by doing nothing.
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monte
Junior Member
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Post by monte on Nov 1, 2010 15:01:32 GMT
eh i find that to be a bit of an exaggeration... We know Surma wanted to attract Renard to the court, however that does not necessarily mean she meant to imprison him. The original intention could have been that they wanted Renard to leave the forest and join the court... Unfortunatly things would fly south when Renard, unexpectedly, winds up killing someone to get into the court, as such a murder would consitute punishment... Really as far as we can see, her only crime in this case is leading Renard on; it's a dickish thing to do but its not really all that horrible. Now it would be a different story if she knew that the court intended to imprison Renard from the beginning If she wanted him to join the court, surely she could have just asked him straight up? I don't think he needed human form to come with her. What's more, what if he'd come over without killing anyone? She'd have to break the news that she wasn't actually into him eventually, and I can't imagine that going over well. Anyway, we don't know what she knew beforehand, or what her superiors' plans for Rey were, but I suspect they weren't doing it with good intentions. Finally, I remembered who this was reminding me of: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mata_HariWhat makes you think Renard would even consider an invitation? or I should say, what makes you think that the court or Surma would think Renard would accept an invitation. What does the court have that Renard would want... As it turned out, the possibility of Surma's love is the only reason Renard wanted to enter the court. If Surma did not drop enough hints to Renard that she may love him back, he might have never even considered leaving the forest... As for the court's intentions, the idea I'm getting is that while Coyote made a promise to leave the court alone the same promise did not apply to his subordinates... I suspect the Court may have been too late Ysengrin as i do not think he would hesitate to accept a gift from Coyote, but they wanted to avoid Renard becoming a powerful enemy... so in the end what they really wanted was to separate Renard from Coyote to make sure he would not be tempted by power and become an enemy in that sense, imprisoning Renard would not be necessary, only make him choose the court over the forest and separate him from coyote As for having to break the news to Renard, well no one said the plan was perfect... perhaps they were hoping with enough time he might grow some attachment to the court so that Surma could eventually let him down easy... hell maybe the whole point might have been to make sure he grew to love humans in general as opposed to just Surma so that even if he returned to the forest he would not make himself a problem
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 15:17:18 GMT
He doesn't seem too broken up about Ysengrin, or even very much about Reynardine for that matter. And like I said, he keeps doing these things even though he knows it will end badly, so it can't be upsetting him all that much. Not TOO broken up, but not laughing... when he plays a trick, he laughs at the thought of it. And yes, like all us imperfect beings, we screw up and continue to do things that may screw up. The only way not to screw up is to do nothing at all...and then you've screwed up by doing nothing. I don't see how that page proves your point; to me it looks an awful lot like Coyote is mocking Ysengrin over the side-effects of the power he gave (this reading of events coincidentally fits very well with his behavior on Annie's next visit). Just because he is not engaged in the physical act of laughter does not mean he didn't derive some enjoyment from the situation. What's more, Coyote isn't an imperfect human being, he's an actual physical god. This implication that he's somehow incapable of giving people powers without fucking it up somehow is laughable. Edit: What makes you think Renard would even consider an invitation? Coyote's talking about all of Rey's friends in the court, mostly.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 15:21:39 GMT
Not TOO broken up, but not laughing... when he plays a trick, he laughs at the thought of it. And yes, like all us imperfect beings, we screw up and continue to do things that may screw up. The only way not to screw up is to do nothing at all...and then you've screwed up by doing nothing. I don't see how that page proves your point; to me it looks an awful lot like Coyote is mocking Ysengrin over the side-effects of the power he gave (this reading of events coincidentally fits very well with his behavior on Annie's next visit). Just because he is not engaged in the physical act of laughter does not mean he didn't derive some enjoyment from the situation. What's more, Coyote isn't an imperfect human being, he's an actual physical god. This implication that he's somehow incapable of giving people powers without fucking it up somehow is laughable. You're reading his expression one way, I'm reading it another. I believe he would laugh out loud if he thought it was a funny trick. He's not the God of Abraham... he's just Coyote. He screws up. Its not laughable... that's how the story goes. I didn't invent him.
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monte
Junior Member
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Post by monte on Nov 1, 2010 15:26:08 GMT
Good point, but still Renard would still have to choose between the forest and the Court... just because he had friends amongst the humans does not mean that he would leave the forest to be closer to them
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 1, 2010 15:28:53 GMT
Disagree; he unilaterally split the forest from the court and screwed a lot of people on both sides over in the process, just to begin with. He's also fond of giving people gifts with nasty side effects that he conveniently fails to mention, and putting people into bad situations 'for the lulz'. attesmythe, how can you say Coyote is good? hal9000 already covered Coyote's history with "gifts", and the legends/myths we've seen so far make him out to be a nasty joker who does things only if they amuse him (even at the expense of others). Good as in very competent. Sorry, I thought the rest of that paragraph would've cleared it up, I guess I could've been clearer. Though, thinking about it some more, he did express dismay at losing Rey to a trick like that...though, thinking even more, he was trying to influence Annie at the time as well. Coyote is good in the sense that he is good at what he does. That is, make tricks and eventually get his way. I think that's what was meant. This, exactly.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 15:34:31 GMT
Attesmythe, I understood what you meant... but Callidus said what I wanted to say before I got here!
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 1, 2010 15:38:15 GMT
I just thought I'd confirm. Teaches me to comment and then go to bed!
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Post by christopher on Nov 1, 2010 15:39:28 GMT
Huh. I guess Surma wasn't quite the paragon of virtue she seemed to be. Although to be fair, if she was the Court medium she may not have had a choice in the matter. You ALWAYS have a choice. Maybe not very good ones, or maybe you don't see all of them, but you do. And once again, Tom manages to completely change perspective in just two pages. Whatever Surma may be, she certainly wasn't innocent, and that is pretty much the impression we were given up to now. I wonder how this chapter will develop from here. So far, we had evidence that it had Annie's father that was the 'jerk' of the family. Although to be honest, given the facial expression Surma had, I'm not surprised to find that she was leading him on. As a side note: I don't like the argument 'she was just following orders.' History has proved that that is a pretty bad stance to take. Yeah, as I said, there's always a choice, you can always say 'no'. Of course, apparently, Surma thought so little of Renard that she obviously had no problems leading him on.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 15:47:22 GMT
Huh. I guess Surma wasn't quite the paragon of virtue she seemed to be. Although to be fair, if she was the Court medium she may not have had a choice in the matter. You ALWAYS have a choice. Maybe not very good ones, or maybe you don't see all of them, but you do. So far, we had evidence that it had Annie's father that was the 'jerk' of the family. Although to be honest, given the facial expression Surma had, I'm not surprised to find that she was leading him on. As a side note: I don't like the argument 'she was just following orders.' History has proved that that is a pretty bad stance to take. Yeah, as I said, there's always a choice, you can always say 'no'. Of course, apparently, Surma thought so little of Renard that she obviously had no problems leading him on. Well, we know Surma tricked Rey to separate him from Coyote. We saw Coyote's vision of them sitting quietly in the forest and we know Rey was in love with her. IF Surma was Rey's friend... what would cause someone to trick a friend? Is it always bad to trick a friend? IF Surma wasn't Rey's friend, would it be bad to separate him from Coyote for safety's sake?
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 15:57:39 GMT
In philosophy class, we learned of a story about a man who broke into a pharmacy to steal drugs. Was he right or wrong to do this? Most people say its wrong to steal.
Then the story changes: his wife was dying of some terrible disease but they couldn't afford the medicine. Mature people say something like, its wrong to steal but he was justified in stealing to save his wife's life. Children will still say its wrong to steal. They don't have the level of maturity to understand the difference.
The story keeps changing until you're not sure who's right or wrong anymore.."the medicine was overpriced" "the pharmacist had no wife and seven kids so he charged too much for everything", etc, etc.
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Post by Casey on Nov 1, 2010 16:04:07 GMT
You guys are overreacting. We haven't seen Surma do anything to lead Renard on. He professed his love for her, she just simply didn't dissuade him from it. There's a big difference between actually telling someone you feel something you don't (leading them on) and simply allowing them to feel what they feel without addressing it. Jesus, all women do this, and they don't even have to be ordered by their employers to do so.
Besides, again, you don't KNOW what Surma's feelings were towards Renard. It's just as likely that she was fond of him too, and wanted to see him come live in the Court, as it is likely that she was this cold-hearted scheming bitch that you guys are choosing to see her as.
I find that opinions here tend to be fickle and mercurial, and that people often don't choose to look at the longer or larger picture, and that disheartens me.
Edit: this wasn't in response to you Jayne, you just happened to post while I was thinking and writing.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 16:10:59 GMT
Thanks, but I understood.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 16:13:44 GMT
Well, we know Surma tricked Rey to separate him from Coyote. We saw Coyote's vision of them sitting quietly in the forest and we know Rey was in love with her. IF Surma was Rey's friend... what would cause someone to trick a friend? Is it always bad to trick a friend? IF Surma wasn't Rey's friend, would it be bad to separate him from Coyote for safety's sake? The question you should be after is 'is it bad to lure someone into a romantic relationship under false pretenses in order to convince them to defect to your country?', since that's what seems to be happening here.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 16:16:40 GMT
Well, we know Surma tricked Rey to separate him from Coyote. We saw Coyote's vision of them sitting quietly in the forest and we know Rey was in love with her. IF Surma was Rey's friend... what would cause someone to trick a friend? Is it always bad to trick a friend? IF Surma wasn't Rey's friend, would it be bad to separate him from Coyote for safety's sake? The question you should be after is 'is it bad to lure someone into a romantic relationship under false pretenses in order to convince them to defect to your country?', since that's what seems to be happening here. Key word there is " seems"
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 16:29:12 GMT
You guys are overreacting. We haven't seen Surma do anything to lead Renard on. He professed his love for her, she just simply didn't dissuade him from it. There's a big difference between actually telling someone you feel something you don't (leading them on) and simply allowing them to feel what they feel without addressing it. Jesus, all women do this, and they don't even have to be ordered by their employers to do so. Besides, again, you don't KNOW what Surma's feelings were towards Renard. It's just as likely that she was fond of him too, and wanted to see him come live in the Court, as it is likely that she was this cold-hearted scheming bitch that you guys are choosing to see her as. Well, we have her close friend Anja saying that she tricked him, so unless Anja is lying or badly mistaken, I'd say that constitutes pretty good evidence of her leading him on. Her actual feelings aside, we are being told that she specifically did this because her employers told her to do it. Also, fuck your strawman: there has been precisely one person in this thread who has called Surma a bitch (and not even a cold-hearted bitch!).
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Post by Elaienar on Nov 1, 2010 16:40:21 GMT
He doesn't seem too broken up about Ysengrin, or even very much about Reynardine for that matter. And like I said, he keeps doing these things even though he knows it will end badly, so it can't be upsetting him all that much. He doesn't act particularly caring, but he's shown Antimony Renard's body, and inviting her to the forest might just be a way to get her to see things from his point of view and return Renard to him. Or he could just be genuinely interested in her, I suppose. Or he could have some other ulterior motive that we've no way of guessing at. As for his attitude towards Ysengrin, it looks to me like he despises the poor guy for looking up to him so much, or thinks he's just a sycophant, or something along those lines. I bet he wouldn't like Renard half as much as he does if Renard had given in and taken his powers early on.
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Post by Casey on Nov 1, 2010 16:50:34 GMT
Well, we have her close friend Anja saying that she tricked him, so unless Anja is lying or badly mistaken, I'd say that constitutes pretty good evidence of her leading him on. No sir. What you have is a third party who wasn't there, answering Annie's question hesitantly as if it weren't that cut and dried. What you ALSO have is a flashback the very page before, where very clear and without question you do NOT have Surma saying "Oh I love you too Renard, please come be with me in the Court!" instead you have her simply not answering him, which as I've already said is not the same thing as leading him on. Again no, that's not even there. Words have meaning. What Anja said does not eliminate the possibility that, as an example, Surma was trying to get her friend Renard to come to the Court on his own volition because she knew that if Coyote gave Renard his powers, the Court would kill Renard. NOWHERE in what Anja said does it actually say that Surma tricked him, or that she was ordered to do anything, or that imprisonment was the ultimate goal. When Anja says "we" she could have meant herself and Renard's other friends. You do not know. You don't need to speak to me in this manner. And then all the people that agreed with her, praised her picture, etc.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 16:51:14 GMT
You guys are overreacting. We haven't seen Surma do anything to lead Renard on. He professed his love for her, she just simply didn't dissuade him from it. There's a big difference between actually telling someone you feel something you don't (leading them on) and simply allowing them to feel what they feel without addressing it. Jesus, all women do this, and they don't even have to be ordered by their employers to do so. Besides, again, you don't KNOW what Surma's feelings were towards Renard. It's just as likely that she was fond of him too, and wanted to see him come live in the Court, as it is likely that she was this cold-hearted scheming bitch that you guys are choosing to see her as. Well, we have her close friend Anja saying that she tricked him, so unless Anja is lying or badly mistaken, I'd say that constitutes pretty good evidence of her leading him on. Her actual feelings aside, we are being told that she specifically did this because her employers told her to do it. Also, fuck your strawman: there has been precisely one person in this thread who has called Surma a bitch (and not even a cold-hearted bitch!). We know Surma tricked him. We don't know why so let's not judge her until we know more.
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Nov 1, 2010 16:52:33 GMT
"We wanted to lure him into the court" sounds like they wanted to separate Rey from Coyote before Coyote could give him any powers... a preemptive thing that shouldn't have bothered Rey at all, since he did have human friends. Surma may have thought Rey could just live at the court instead of in the forest and everything would be fine... like he's doing now with Annie. I agree with all of that, except for the way Surma is luring him. It would seem to be under false pretenses, unless Reynard was looking forward to being treated like a dog (patted on the head, etc.) and not to something more. Somehow I doubt that an etheric creature like Reynard was expressing his love for Surma in hopes of nice pats on the head and the occasional Scoobie snack.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 16:54:04 GMT
"We wanted to lure him into the court" sounds like they wanted to separate Rey from Coyote before Coyote could give him any powers... a preemptive thing that shouldn't have bothered Rey at all, since he did have human friends. Surma may have thought Rey could just live at the court instead of in the forest and everything would be fine... like he's doing now with Annie. I agree with all of that, except for the way Surma is luring him. It would seem to be under false pretenses, unless Reynard was looking forward to being treated like a dog (patted on the head, etc.) and not to something more. Somehow I doubt that an etheric creature like Reynard was expressing his love for Surma in hopes of nice pats on the head and the occasional Scoobie snack. But he doesn't seem to mind it living with Annie that way. He's not tried to leave, in fact, he argued against it.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 17:06:56 GMT
My dog adores me... she waits by the door until I get home and when I do get home, she's my constant companion. She sleeps by my feet... literally ON my feet if she can. If she could speak, she would say she loves me. We know Rey and he is not a dog... he's even more than a fox... What if Surma did not consider him as anything special. We know "The court, on the other hand, sees them as little more than dull minded animals trying to create a nuisance. " Surma was taught at the court... Annie (and us) knows Rey much better because she defied the court and kept him. Surma did not live with him.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 1, 2010 17:07:32 GMT
Based on what, exactly? I mean, we've only heard about this here, and when Coyote (a notoriously unreliable narrator) was telling us back in, what, chapter 20? On the other hand, we have seen that all but one of his gifts to date have been perilous to the user, at best. The one that hasn't had a side effect so far, the tooth he gifted to Annie, doesn't look good either considering that he saw fit to warn her about how powerful it was. I mean, he obviously knows that his gifts have bad side-effects for the recipients, and he's still giving them out regardless. Actually, Coyote is an extremely reliable narrator; it's stated in the comic that he tells no actual lies and does not try to hide his motives if he's not in the process of tricking someone. Ask him about any of his past misdeeds, and he will admit to them quite readily. If he says he wanted to make Renard a powerful creature like himself, he means it. He might have had an ulterior motive, or he might have just thought that it would have been fun, but he honestly wanted to elevate Renard. And, to be fair, giving someone a tooth is very different from giving someone one of his powers.
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Post by Elaienar on Nov 1, 2010 17:11:28 GMT
We know Surma tricked him. We don't know why so let's not judge her until we know more. Agree. From experience with GC we also know that there's (probably) like a zillion things about this situation that we won't be made aware of for quite some time.
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monte
Junior Member
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Post by monte on Nov 1, 2010 17:21:23 GMT
You guys are overreacting. We haven't seen Surma do anything to lead Renard on. He professed his love for her, she just simply didn't dissuade him from it. There's a big difference between actually telling someone you feel something you don't (leading them on) and simply allowing them to feel what they feel without addressing it. Jesus, all women do this, and they don't even have to be ordered by their employers to do so. Besides, again, you don't KNOW what Surma's feelings were towards Renard. It's just as likely that she was fond of him too, and wanted to see him come live in the Court, as it is likely that she was this cold-hearted scheming bitch that you guys are choosing to see her as. You do not have to be direct to just "lead someone on"; you can be much more subtle... She knows for certain that Renard loves her. not only does she make no attempt to dissuade Renard but she continues to act very close to him. And really a line like "I'll call you Reynardine because it's the name of a demon who steals young girls' hearts" is a not-so-subtle way of saying "you've stolen my heart"; It's not direct but its pretty obvious hint... That combo is enough to let Renard to jump to the wrong conclusions, to make him think that Surma likes him enough to believe that he has a real chance of wooing her... And this would lead Renard to possibly going to the court in order to get even closer to her
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 1, 2010 17:27:37 GMT
Actually, Coyote is an extremely reliable narrator; it's stated in the comic that he tells no actual lies and does not try to hide his motives if he's not in the process of tricking someone. Ask him about any of his past misdeeds, and he will admit to them quite readily. If he says he wanted to make Renard a powerful creature like himself, he means it. He might have had an ulterior motive, or he might have just thought that it would have been fun, but he honestly wanted to elevate Renard. And, to be fair, giving someone a tooth is very different from giving someone one of his powers. Good point about his narrative reliability within the scope of the story. That being said, why would Coyote's power fail so awfully for Rey if Coyote didn't, on some level, intend it to? I can't see any good reason, really. Also, Coyote's tooth (in the form of a knife) is a considerably dangerous and powerful artifact; I'd say him giving it away is at least on par with him giving away one of his powers.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 1, 2010 17:31:17 GMT
What's more, Coyote isn't an imperfect human being, he's an actual physical god. This implication that he's somehow incapable of giving people powers without fucking it up somehow is laughable. Yes, it is laughable. That's why that kind of narrative is in so many of the stories about Coyote: he's a trickster figure, and most of his stories are intended to be humorous. Here's a typical plot: - Coyote gets bored.
- Coyote tries to occupy himself by doing something crazy, dangerous, or magical.
- Coyote bumbles his attempt at whatever it is he's trying, causing chaos for everyone involved.
- Penis joke.
- Coyote runs off laughing.
Coyote is well known for messing up. Trying to give other canine trickster figures some of his powers so that he has equals to do play tricks with, only for those gifts to backfire sounds like the kind of thing Coyote would try.
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Post by jayne on Nov 1, 2010 17:33:42 GMT
What's more, Coyote isn't an imperfect human being, he's an actual physical god. This implication that he's somehow incapable of giving people powers without fucking it up somehow is laughable. Yes, it is laughable. That's why that kind of narrative is in so many of the stories about Coyote: he's a trickster figure, and most of his stories are intended to be humorous. Here's a typical plot: - Coyote gets bored.
- Coyote tries to occupy himself by doing something crazy, dangerous, or magical.
- Coyote bumbles his attempt at whatever it is he's trying, causing chaos for everyone involved.
- Penis joke.
- Coyote runs off laughing.
Coyote is well known for messing up. Trying to give other canine trickster figures some of his powers so that he has equals to do play tricks with, only for those gifts to backfire sounds like the kind of thing Coyote would try. Okay this actually made me laugh out loud and I'm afraid I'm going to have to add it to my list of favorite Coyote Stories... ;D ;D ;D
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 1, 2010 17:35:08 GMT
You guys are overreacting. We haven't seen Surma do anything to lead Renard on. He professed his love for her, she just simply didn't dissuade him from it. There's a big difference between actually telling someone you feel something you don't (leading them on) and simply allowing them to feel what they feel without addressing it. Jesus, all women do this, and they don't even have to be ordered by their employers to do so. Besides, again, you don't KNOW what Surma's feelings were towards Renard. It's just as likely that she was fond of him too, and wanted to see him come live in the Court, as it is likely that she was this cold-hearted scheming bitch that you guys are choosing to see her as. You do not have to be direct to just "lead someone on"; you can be much more subtle... She knows for certain that Renard loves her. not only does she make no attempt to dissuade Renard but she continues to act very close to him. And really a line like "I'll call you Reynardine because it's the name of a demon who steals young girls' hearts" is a not-so-subtle way of saying "you've stolen my heart"; It's not direct but its pretty obvious hint... That combo is enough to let Renard to jump to the wrong conclusions, to make him think that Surma likes him enough to believe that he has a real chance of wooing her... And this would lead Renard to possibly going to the court in order to get even closer to her I agree. It's not hard to lead someone on without actually intentionally doing something to give them the wrong impression. Sometimes simply not dissuading someone is enough to lead them on.
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Post by Casey on Nov 1, 2010 17:42:12 GMT
You do not have to be direct to just "lead someone on"; you can be much more subtle... She knows for certain that Renard loves her. not only does she make no attempt to dissuade Renard but she continues to act very close to him. And really a line like "I'll call you Reynardine because it's the name of a demon who steals young girls' hearts" is a not-so-subtle way of saying "you've stolen my heart"; It's not direct but its pretty obvious hint... That combo is enough to let Renard to jump to the wrong conclusions, to make him think that Surma likes him enough to believe that he has a real chance of wooing her... And this would lead Renard to possibly going to the court in order to get even closer to her There still exists the possibility that her motivation was to save Renard and not to trick/trap him. The following is still possible and not in any way made unlikely by anything we've been told so far: "I really do care about Renard, although I don't feel for him the way he does for me, and if I don't get him away from Coyote, then eventually Coyote will get him to take his power, and then the Court will kill him! I don't want my friend to be killed so we've got to try to get him to come live in the Court... and I don't want to reject his advances just yet because to do so might cause him to never consider moving to the Court, so for now I have to keep silent, even though it might hurt him, because it's more important that I save him from the Court by getting him away from Coyote so that he isn't a threat." If Surma were truly stringing Rey along, why does she not feign reciprocation? The above possibility is one that would explain both why she doesn't claim to reciprocate, and why she doesn't reject him. And it's out of kindness and caring for her friend, not simply because "she's a huge bitch bluh bluh!" So forgive me if I choose to take the more mature, patient, and forgiving point of view. And I'm not saying that theory is right, or another theory is wrong. I'm saying we can't know. This is a running, recurring idea in Tom's story. We don't KNOW whether Rey intended to possess Annie. We didn't KNOW whether Diego was good or bad, or whether Jeanne was a hot-headed bitch to him. We didn't KNOW whether Jack was "just bein' honest" about Annie, or whether he was under the influence of a malevolent force. And now, we don't KNOW that Surma truly tricked Renard, or if it was something altogether else. Someone should start a list of things that turned out to be not as they first seemed in the comic. Then maybe people will remember not to go off half-cocked all the time.
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