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Post by jayne on Sept 29, 2010 20:39:17 GMT
But why would the court put her there to just kill anything that crossed? Still too many plot holes. Its not a plot hole because it hasn't actually been explained yet. We don't know what Young and company were afraid might happen.
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Post by wittgen on Sept 29, 2010 21:08:56 GMT
Coyote is a god, and so it makes sense that the court would be worried about protecting themselves from him. Just like in the real world, you don't necessarily believe an extremely powerful entity when they say the won't hurt you even though they're super nearby and totally could. Thus, it makes sense for them to try and protect the waters.
Also consider that the court was able to dictate terms about how the crossing of the waters because of what they did to Jeanne. Basically, this chapter makes all kinds of sense and explains a lot. That's precisely the opposite of a plot hole.
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Post by zylonbane on Sept 29, 2010 21:11:22 GMT
But why would the court put her there to just kill anything that crossed? Still too many plot holes. And even if that's exactly what they wanted, how would the court guarantee that's what would happen? Jeanne is, as I've pointed out, filled with hate and rage but nonetheless still sentient and self-aware. The court apparently counted on her choosing to express that hate in a very specific way, in perpetuity. That's patently ridiculous, unless Jeanne was fond of telling people, "I swear to god, if my lover is ever killed in front of me while I'm standing on the shores of the Annan river, my spirit will kill everyone who tries to cross it forever."
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Post by jayne on Sept 29, 2010 21:22:44 GMT
But why would the court put her there to just kill anything that crossed? Still too many plot holes. And even if that's exactly what they wanted, how would the court guarantee that's what would happen? Jeanne is, as I've pointed out, filled with hate and rage but nonetheless still sentient and self-aware. The court apparently counted on her choosing to express that hate in a very specific way, in perpetuity. That's patently ridiculous, unless Jeanne was fond of telling people, "I swear to god, if my lover is ever killed in front of me while I'm standing on the shores of the Annan river, my spirit will kill everyone who tries to cross it forever." The device killed Greenguy and caused Jeanne to die in anguish. Her rageful spectral energy was gathered and focused on a pre-programmed task just like the etherical energy can be focused by a computer to create a shield.Diego was already focusing etherical energy to make his robots work so why not this too?
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Post by Casey on Sept 29, 2010 21:24:03 GMT
It's been pointed out that we don't know what kind of magic was in that green light, or what it is compelling her to do.
Try to reserve judgment until we know the whole story, ok?
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Post by wittgen on Sept 29, 2010 22:01:41 GMT
On 779 Jeanne says, "What was left of my spirit, my rage, my hate, was forged, white hot, into the sentinel of these waters." That's pretty solid confirmation that the device took the parts of Jeanne that would hurt people and turned them into a weapon that would lash out against anyone who tried to cross the waters.
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Post by nem985 on Sept 29, 2010 22:23:40 GMT
You would have thought Annie would have learned her lesson the first time back on 520
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Post by arucard on Sept 29, 2010 22:28:08 GMT
But why would the court put her there to just kill anything that crossed? Still too many plot holes. And even if that's exactly what they wanted, how would the court guarantee that's what would happen? Jeanne is, as I've pointed out, filled with hate and rage but nonetheless still sentient and self-aware. The court apparently counted on her choosing to express that hate in a very specific way, in perpetuity. That's patently ridiculous, unless Jeanne was fond of telling people, "I swear to god, if my lover is ever killed in front of me while I'm standing on the shores of the Annan river, my spirit will kill everyone who tries to cross it forever." Not gonna search for it, but someone asked in Formspring why Jeanne was guarding the Waters, and Tom replied she has no choice... I think it's pretty safe to assume that Diego's arrow somehow forced her spirit to kill anythingt trying to cross the river (or anything that just comes near it), taking somo advantage of her anger and sorrow...
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Post by arucard on Sept 29, 2010 22:30:25 GMT
And am I the only hoping that Annie will remember about freakin' Coyote Tooth???
Damn, I wanna see it being unsheathed and cutting stuff! Etherical stuff! Ghost-hand-that-is-holding-the-blinker-stone stuff!
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Post by warrl on Sept 29, 2010 22:39:50 GMT
Maybe I missed something but how long has Jeanne been down there? We don't know exactly. We know that Diego kept making things for probably another 40 years or more after Jeanne died, so he probably made at least several hundred to a couple thousand robots - that came directly from his hands. Yet, only one is known to still be functional: the little camerabot. Several modern court robots are recognizably bad copies, almost parodies, of some of his designs. We also know that Jeanne and Diego were present at the founding of the court complex, which is now the size of a large city (and mostly uninhabited). I would guess at least 300 years.
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Fen
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by Fen on Sept 29, 2010 22:57:09 GMT
No, that's circular logic. There's a guard there, so there must be something to guard and something to guard against. Doesn't really work that way. But then Jeanne is a malevolent ghost etherically twisted to be a guard, so to her, her work is the most important thing in the world, even if the lack of piles of forest-creature-bones would indicate there can't be much of a threat. Oh, it wasn't that there's a guard down there that made me think there's a threat - it's that she states that the luxury of the court, or of Parley's opportunity to have a "gleaming heart", is "afforded by [her] death". So if she hadn't died down there, Parley would not have the luxury she does - so the implication seems to be that if she's not down there, something would happen to the court. Although poor phrasing in my previous post. "Imply" rather than "confirm" would be better.
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Post by camouflage on Sept 29, 2010 23:17:53 GMT
Yet, only one is known to still be functional: the little camerabot. Several modern court robots are recognizably bad copies, almost parodies, of some of his designs. The box Annie found Robot's parts in was labelled S 13, which I assume refers to it being of the 13th generation of robot-produced seraphim. But I think trying to calculate how long it would take for each generation of robots to break down completely until the next, less sophisticated generation has to take over the construction of new robots would have to rely on to many factors which have to pulled out of thin air. But I think you could end up with more than 3 centuries.
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Post by Casey on Sept 30, 2010 0:54:26 GMT
No, that's circular logic. There's a guard there, so there must be something to guard and something to guard against. Doesn't really work that way. But then Jeanne is a malevolent ghost etherically twisted to be a guard, so to her, her work is the most important thing in the world, even if the lack of piles of forest-creature-bones would indicate there can't be much of a threat. Oh, it wasn't that there's a guard down there that made me think there's a threat - it's that she states that the luxury of the court, or of Parley's opportunity to have a "gleaming heart", is "afforded by [her] death". So if she hadn't died down there, Parley would not have the luxury she does - so the implication seems to be that if she's not down there, something would happen to the court. Although poor phrasing in my previous post. "Imply" rather than "confirm" would be better. At the risk of opening a can of worms, it's the same idea that convinces people that Homeland Security is a good and proper thing, simply because there's not been another major terrorist attack since it was implemented. Jeanne thinking "I am here, and the Court is still standing, therefore I am keeping the Court standing by being here" dismisses the idea that the Court would still be standing even if she weren't there. And remember, Jeanne is nothing now but concentrated rage and anger and bitter memories. To determine whether there was an actual attack on the Court that she thwarted, I would look for more compelling evidence. Like, as I said, a huge pile of bones of her victims.
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Post by jayne on Sept 30, 2010 0:59:48 GMT
Oh, it wasn't that there's a guard down there that made me think there's a threat - it's that she states that the luxury of the court, or of Parley's opportunity to have a "gleaming heart", is "afforded by [her] death". So if she hadn't died down there, Parley would not have the luxury she does - so the implication seems to be that if she's not down there, something would happen to the court. Although poor phrasing in my previous post. "Imply" rather than "confirm" would be better. At the risk of opening a can of worms, it's the same idea that convinces people that Homeland Security is a good and proper thing, simply because there's not been another major terrorist attack since it was implemented. Jeanne thinking "I am here, and the Court is still standing, therefore I am keeping the Court standing by being here" dismisses the idea that the Court would still be standing even if she weren't there. And remember, Jeanne is nothing now but concentrated rage and anger and bitter memories. To determine whether there was an actual attack on the Court that she thwarted, I would look for more compelling evidence. Like, as I said, a huge pile of bones of her victims. There's probably a lot of bones at the bottom of the river but even then, who says they were attacking anyone?
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Post by Casey on Sept 30, 2010 1:03:10 GMT
well my point is we don't see any bones down there except Jeanne's.
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Post by zylonbane on Sept 30, 2010 2:56:48 GMT
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Brinunah
New Member
DFTBA - An Initialism Standing for "Don't Forget To Be Awesome"
Posts: 13
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Post by Brinunah on Sept 30, 2010 5:47:12 GMT
Not gonna search for it, but someone asked in Formspring why Jeanne was guarding the Waters, and Tom replied she has no choice... I think it's pretty safe to assume that Diego's arrow somehow forced her spirit to kill anythingt trying to cross the river (or anything that just comes near it), taking some advantage of her anger and sorrow... This really made me thing about it and I can't help but agree. After all, didn't Jeanne say that her body was "ensnared" by the green light in the river? And didn't the arrow have an "odd weight" to it, as Steadman noted? All I can do is conclude that the arrow was definitely designed to trap Jeanne into guarding the waters against her will(!) for not loving Diego. However, it should also be noted that my tiny fangirling mind is jumping waaaaaaaaaaay ahead of itself (as it often does).
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Post by Mylian on Sept 30, 2010 13:13:44 GMT
No, you're quite right. Whatever the arrow did, it was more than just killing Greenguy. She's not just hanging around purely out of sorrow and rage, something the arrow did directly is keeping her there and the plotters specifically planned it that way.
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Post by jayne on Sept 30, 2010 14:15:33 GMT
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Post by paxjax123 on Sept 30, 2010 14:22:57 GMT
I'm super glad Parley isn't dead right now.
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Post by jayne on Sept 30, 2010 14:42:04 GMT
Hmmmm... Jeanne was an excellent swordsman and Parley is an excellent swordsman, both trained in the same place and currently in the same etherical form. Unarmed, Parley at least has enough mental dexterity to counter Jeanne's attacks. If Jeanne and Parley met before Jeanne died, as two human girls, Jeanne would still have the advantage of being older and more experienced. Tom says the forest people know better than to go near the river (unless they're trying to get dead) so she hasn't had many challenges in the pass couple of hundred years. Her skills may have declined while Parley is still very actively training. I think the girls will make it!
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Post by Casey on Sept 30, 2010 15:14:26 GMT
If the first few throws of Annie's blinker stone ended up in the river, I wonder if there was some chance that she might have seen the original arrow and Elfboy's body. If she'd known to look for them.
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Post by jayne on Sept 30, 2010 16:00:55 GMT
If the first few throws of Annie's blinker stone ended up in the river, I wonder if there was some chance that she might have seen the original arrow and Elfboy's body. If she'd known to look for them. I imagine she'd see the same view as if she were swimming. (Edit: with goggles since the water wouldn't be effecting her eyes) There'd be a chance but the water would be murky and his body would probably be partially buried in silt by now. It would be hard to tell him from anything else down there.
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Post by atteSmythe on Sept 30, 2010 16:13:07 GMT
If the first few throws of Annie's blinker stone ended up in the river, I wonder if there was some chance that she might have seen the original arrow and Elfboy's body. If she'd known to look for them. Surely something that will frustrate her in the future. Though she's seen the arrow before, in the robot's memory. She probably would have recognized it. I suspect that the girls will escape without freeing Jeanne. It will be an interesting puzzle to solve if helping her requires destroying the arrow, which is sitting at the bottom of the river in the area she guards.
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percival
Full Member
there's a storm a-brewin'
Posts: 119
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Post by percival on Sept 30, 2010 18:38:00 GMT
More from Formspring:
- Is using Coyote's tooth an option at this point?
If she had it on her, Annie wouldn't be able to reach it since she's being kept from returning to her body right now
- Why did Muut think Jeanne couldn't cross the Annan Waters?
Because nothing should be able to
- Have Jeane's ghost killed any forest creature that tried to cross Annan Waters? Also, does anyone in Forest know what enables them to pass? Or they just know, that no one who tried comes back?
If something tries to cross down there she will stop it. The forest guys just know not to try
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Post by Refugee on Sept 30, 2010 19:55:29 GMT
More from Formspring: - Is using Coyote's tooth an option at this point?
If she had it on her, Annie wouldn't be able to reach it since she's being kept from returning to her body right now I 'm surprised that Coyote's Tooth doesn't have a rather formidable etheric presence.
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Post by cu on Sept 30, 2010 23:32:55 GMT
I 'm surprised that Coyote's Tooth doesn't have a rather formidable etheric presence. I'd say it does.
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Post by Refugee on Oct 1, 2010 0:57:38 GMT
I 'm surprised that Coyote's Tooth doesn't have a rather formidable etheric presence. I'd say it does. Coyote himself does, but does his tooth? The blinker stone does....
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Chrome
Full Member
The Shiny One
Posts: 232
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Post by Chrome on Oct 1, 2010 1:03:00 GMT
Note that the tooth turned into a sheathed dagger decorated out in Coyote's colors. I have a feeling it at least can shapechange from a simple tooth to the dagger as Annie intuitively "calls" for it to have that purpose. I wouldn't be surprised if it responded somewhat like a blinker stone, but perhaps instead of making holographic shapes, it somehow changed shapes to whatever bladed weapon she sees fit to need. As for an etheric presence....a gift like that from Coyote? Whyever would it *not* have an etheric presence? The reason I suggested the above, is that it would make an awesome plot point for Annie to remember she's got it, and to give it to Parley as a defensive weapon to hold off Jeanne with. As was said earlier in the thread, Parley has been actively training, while Jeanne probably hasn't had very many challengers lately...time to school the ghost lady in how it's done, methinks.
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Post by arucard on Oct 1, 2010 1:42:51 GMT
The reason I suggested the above, is that it would make an awesome plot point for Annie to remember she's got it, and to give it to Parley as a defensive weapon to hold off Jeanne with. Kind of what i was hoping to happen too... I'm really surprised to see Tom's answer regarding the Coyote Tooth... I thought that it would be a blade to be used by Annie in her etheric form, not in her physical form...
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