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Post by stephen on Sept 29, 2010 13:11:32 GMT
The "luxury" is Parley's "gleaming heart," representing her being in love. Jeanne figures that her death is what makes today's court possible, and so everything in it is owing to her.
Jeanne envy's Parley's love and hates Parley for it. She's saying that it's unfair that she died in order to protect the court, and now people in the court have love and she doesn't -- because the loss of her love is both what killed her and what protects the court.
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serendipity
New Member
Now with 30% more cake.
Posts: 27
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Post by serendipity on Sept 29, 2010 13:14:32 GMT
Judging by the clothes, it might have been about the year 1800. Edit: I'm terrible at judging clothes... it could be around the year 1600 Several hundred years at least At first I was going to say maybe early 1800s, but their clothing styles jump all over the chronological map, so really, it's anybody's guess. I see some more modern stuff on Jeanne and Steadman, but everybody in the Jeanne's death scheme discussion meeting is wearing what I THINK is Regency styled stuff, but Jeanne's white dresses don't really fit in anywhere, and her red dress later is almost medieval, so...I think Tom is going for a Disney-styled sort of "No exact time, just a long, long time ago."
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Post by aaroncampbell on Sept 29, 2010 13:41:13 GMT
So, anyone still thinking Jeanne will listen to reason? I guess that rules out any group hugs, too That actually made me physically shudder, but laugh out loud at the same time!
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Post by zylonbane on Sept 29, 2010 13:46:45 GMT
Something about Jeanne's transformation seems familar...
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Post by aaroncampbell on Sept 29, 2010 13:50:38 GMT
It looks to me like Annie's etheric hair just got cut. Take a look -- there is a clean separation between Jeanne and Annie/Parley now, where the blade swung through. Aura and I were talking about this a month or so ago. I wonder what the consequences of being separated from both the stone and her body will be?: Was I the only one who freaked out when Annie couldn't get back??? My claustrophobia kicked in right at that very second O.o Mine did, too, and I'm not usually claustrophobic. Ugh, what a horrible experience. Great idea, blackmantha! The consequences might be rather serious, though. Annie has always either been connected via her hair to either the blinker stone (when seeing through the stone) or her own body. If she's not connected to either, then she might be stranded like Jeanne is. Hmm... I said a few weeks ago that it could be bad if Annie got her hair cut; let's hope you and I are wrong! The real question is, if this Important Haircut makes such a significant change in Kat's perspective and behavior, what would one do for Annie?Not that I want to see Annie with short hair (I love her long hair) but something tells me that if it ever were to happen, major changes would be afoot or about to happen. And they wouldn't all be roses and happiness.
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percival
Full Member
there's a storm a-brewin'
Posts: 119
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Post by percival on Sept 29, 2010 14:07:42 GMT
I don't see how on earth they can get the blinker stone back. We're talking about a guardian so effective that Tom has stated that no one who has tried to cross has returned. She knows that the blinker stone is what anchors them to her, so they can't just trick her into dropping it. And they can't get close to her without coming in range of her sword. In other words, they are effed. On a side note, what happens if Parley just lets go of Annie? Would she be safe? I think Parley might be able to pull it off. Remember her deft maneuver?. It doesn't even look like she used her sword, and yet she disarmed her opponent. Jeanne is certainly a more formidable foe, but I'm still hoping Parley can do it.
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Post by Mylian on Sept 29, 2010 15:04:36 GMT
This page reminds me of the librarian ghost from Ghost Busters. Also, I love that after several posts speculating abiut who would come to the girls' rescue, they seem to be getting themselves out of this trouble. Something about Jeanne's transformation seems familar... "That was your whole plan, Ray?" The main difference between this scene and that is that, at the bottom of the Annan Waters, Hilarity will not Ensue.
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Post by djublonskopf on Sept 29, 2010 15:05:51 GMT
Jeanne's words raise an intriguing question. Gunnerkrigg Court owes its safety to her death, a sacrifice that she did not consent to. The Founders who arranged it are long since dead, of course, and the present residents of the Court weren't even born at the time. But their safety and protection stems from her murder, making them the beneficiaries of the crime. So should they be punished for it? On the one hand, they did not commit it; on the other hand, letting them continue to enjoy their safety thanks to Jeanne's protection would reward the crime. It's a tangle I can't see an easy answer for, and certainly wouldn't want to be the judge on that case. I don't think it's a crime to benefit from somebody else's actions, so I don't see why you would punish somebody just for benefiting, and for no other reason. And besides, it can't be made right. No matter what anybody now does, Jeanne and her lover will still have been killed, and no amount of revenge killing will un-kill either one of them. Even if Jeanne executed everyone in the court and razed it to the ground, she and her lover will still have been killed . . . and she will not have so much as injured even one of the people responsible for her death.
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Post by jayne on Sept 29, 2010 15:16:03 GMT
Jeanne's words raise an intriguing question. Gunnerkrigg Court owes its safety to her death, a sacrifice that she did not consent to. The Founders who arranged it are long since dead, of course, and the present residents of the Court weren't even born at the time. But their safety and protection stems from her murder, making them the beneficiaries of the crime. So should they be punished for it? On the one hand, they did not commit it; on the other hand, letting them continue to enjoy their safety thanks to Jeanne's protection would reward the crime. It's a tangle I can't see an easy answer for, and certainly wouldn't want to be the judge on that case. I don't think it's a crime to benefit from somebody else's actions, so I don't see why you would punish somebody just for benefiting, and for no other reason. And besides, it can't be made right. No matter what anybody now does, Jeanne and her lover will still have been killed, and no amount of revenge killing will un-kill either one of them. Even if Jeanne executed everyone in the court and razed it to the ground, she and her lover will still have been killed . . . and she will not have so much as injured even one of the people responsible for her death. Yeah, if your boss gets murdered by someone else and you get promoted to his job, you're not guilty of anything even though you've benefited from his murder.
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Post by q3 on Sept 29, 2010 15:16:08 GMT
In any event, the smart move at this point would be for Annie to try and retrieve her blinker stone while Jeanne is distracted. It doesn't seem likely that Jeanne will be passing to the great beyond anytime soon, and this is definitely a situation where discretion is the better part of valor. I want to say I called it, but with infinite darts that sort of thing often happens. I don't see how on earth they can get the blinker stone back. We're talking about a guardian so effective that Tom has stated that no one who has tried to cross has returned. She knows that the blinker stone is what anchors them to her, so they can't just trick her into dropping it. And they can't get close to her without coming in range of her sword. Jeanne has probably been an efficient, emotionless killer for most or all of her existence as the sentinel. Now, however, she is enraged, and as we all know, angry people (or ghosts) make mistakes. Parley's already dodged a blow (while keeping Annie safe at the same time); she might be able to dislodge the stone, too.
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camo
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by camo on Sept 29, 2010 15:17:06 GMT
2) Did ya'll see Parley's serious face??? She is totally ready to kick some Ghost-Sentinel Butt. The "Get down!" came from Parley and she pulled Annie and herself out of the way of the sword, right? I guess her combat-reflexes fired up just in time.
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Post by fjodor on Sept 29, 2010 15:17:37 GMT
An important question that remains unanswered is whether the Court really needed protection. If we look at Coyote's powers, he should be able to destroy the entire court in seconds (just drop the moon op top of it). So was the sacrifice necessary to stop the forest from entering the Court, of to stop Jeanne and possibly others to 'defect'?
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Post by jayne on Sept 29, 2010 15:30:08 GMT
An important question that remains unanswered is whether the Court really needed protection. If we look at Coyote's powers, he should be able to destroy the entire court in seconds (just drop the moon op top of it). So was the sacrifice necessary to stop the forest from entering the Court, of to stop Jeanne and possibly others to 'defect'? My opinion of Young keeps getting worse and worse but what if there was no actual danger? What if Young just promoted fear of the forest to keep people from leaving? What if he was just using fear to control his people? That means Young would have been willing to kill Jeanne and have her suffer for eternity for propaganda?
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Post by Casey on Sept 29, 2010 17:07:52 GMT
I think Young perceived a danger, though it might have just been paranoia and xenophobia. However we don't really know whether it was ever actually necessary.
Coyote only said that the court had "done something" to the river to make it impassable. Whether he was being coy, or genuinely didn't know that it was specifically an armed and angry ghost down there, we don't really know.
But you have to ask yourself... both sides know that "The Annan Waters are impassable" but do neither of them really know specifically why? How would they know that the Waters were impassable unless someone tried it? If someone did try it and escaped, then they would know exactly why the Waters were impassable (though not necessarily whose ghost she was) and if someone tried it and -didn't- escape, then where are the bones of all Jeanne's victims?
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Fen
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by Fen on Sept 29, 2010 17:13:34 GMT
Second panel: Is that a cut on Jeanne's cheek the same as the one she gave Annie? I think it's the glow of the blinker stone used to depict Jeanne's utter fury and not an actual mark on her ethereal flesh. Otherwise, I figure we would have seen such marks before. I don't see any cuts, though there are a few creepy creases from that face she pulled being lit up red by the blinker stone I can see. Oop! And that was already pointed out. I am a dork. I was wondering about this thing: Although I'm now wondering if it's just a crease from her cheekbones. Hmm.
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Fen
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by Fen on Sept 29, 2010 17:23:09 GMT
An important question that remains unanswered is whether the Court really needed protection. If we look at Coyote's powers, he should be able to destroy the entire court in seconds (just drop the moon op top of it). So was the sacrifice necessary to stop the forest from entering the Court, of to stop Jeanne and possibly others to 'defect'? My opinion of Young keeps getting worse and worse but what if there was no actual danger? What if Young just promoted fear of the forest to keep people from leaving? What if he was just using fear to control his people? That means Young would have been willing to kill Jeanne and have her suffer for eternity for propaganda? Does anyone think that Jeanne's words here confirm that there is a danger after all? She basically says that the "coddling" lifestyle of the court is possible because she is down there - ie if she WASN'T down there, things would go tits-up pretty sharpish.
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 29, 2010 17:47:24 GMT
Yeah, if your boss gets murdered by someone else and you get promoted to his job, you're not guilty of anything even though you've benefited from his murder. Of course I'm not. Who said I was? <_< >_> Was it Fred? It was Fred, wasn't it? I'll kill him!
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Post by Casey on Sept 29, 2010 17:49:36 GMT
No, that's circular logic. There's a guard there, so there must be something to guard and something to guard against. Doesn't really work that way. But then Jeanne is a malevolent ghost etherically twisted to be a guard, so to her, her work is the most important thing in the world, even if the lack of piles of forest-creature-bones would indicate there can't be much of a threat.
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jandor
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by jandor on Sept 29, 2010 17:52:02 GMT
The Forest seems much anarchic than the Court, Coyote is probably de facto leader rather than in any official capacity. The creatures of the forest could probably have attacked without Coyotes say so, or on Ysengrin's orders maybe.
Also, Coyote did say the Court was man's attempt to become God (or words to that effect), maybe they are powerful enough that he can't just wipe it from the face of the Earth if he wants. Hence, fortifying the Annan to prevent him wandering in.
Either way, I doubt Jeanne was sacrificed for no reason. However pointless it may be now (they did build a damn bridge after everyone who knew about it was gone.)
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Post by Casey on Sept 29, 2010 18:10:19 GMT
jandor you raised an interesting question in my head with something that you said. If Jeanne is pissed off because Parley down there flaunting her gleaming heart which she feels is due to her steadfast vigilance against anything ever coming across the Divide from the Forest, ever, then how completely enraged must she have been when the Bridge was being built? You can see from panel 2 of this page that the physical structure of the bridge extends down to the shore on both sides. How many workers (or worker robots) must they have lost to Jeanne's incredible anger that they were rejoining two things that her entire purpose in life(death) is to keep separate? Almost makes a hormonal teenager seem pale in comparison.
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Post by jayne on Sept 29, 2010 18:37:27 GMT
jandor you raised an interesting question in my head with something that you said. If Jeanne is pissed off because Parley down there flaunting her gleaming heart which she feels is due to her steadfast vigilance against anything ever coming across the Divide from the Forest, ever, then how completely enraged must she have been when the Bridge was being built? You can see from panel 2 of this page that the physical structure of the bridge extends down to the shore on both sides. How many workers (or worker robots) must they have lost to Jeanne's incredible anger that they were rejoining two things that her entire purpose in life(death) is to keep separate? Almost makes a hormonal teenager seem pale in comparison. Crossing the river isn't the issue with Jeanne... she'll kill anything she can reach. The girls weren't crossing anything. They probably used 'sword resistant' robots to build the bridge. They knew better than to send people down there.
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Post by djublonskopf on Sept 29, 2010 18:45:40 GMT
But then Jeanne is a malevolent ghost etherically twisted to be a guard, so to her, her work is the most important thing in the world, even if the lack of piles of forest-creature-bones would indicate there can't be much of a threat. Do we actually know that Jeanne is what makes the waters un-crossable? I'm seeing that assumption, but I haven't ever shared it. It seems to me that one guard with a sword (who hates the people she's supposed to be defending) is a ridiculously bad way to make an entire giant river uncrossable. What would she do if two people tried crossing in different places? I think that the Court made the water itself uncrossable, using the arrow and (we now see) the green elf in some way . . . and that the ACT of making the water uncrossable did something to Jeanne (that maybe Jeanne herself isn't fully aware of). But the waters would still be uncrossable even if Jeanne was gone, or had never been there in the first place. She was bait, and nothing else. (And of course, this is all just speculation and I'd be fine if I was wrong.)
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Post by zylonbane on Sept 29, 2010 19:29:11 GMT
I think that the Court made the water itself uncrossable, using the arrow and (we now see) the green elf in some way . . . and that the ACT of making the water uncrossable did something to Jeanne (that maybe Jeanne herself isn't fully aware of). This thought has occurred to me as well. The entire concept of Jeanne's creation as impassable guardian is just too swiss-cheesed with logic holes.
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Post by jayne on Sept 29, 2010 19:36:32 GMT
I think that the Court made the water itself uncrossable, using the arrow and (we now see) the green elf in some way . . . and that the ACT of making the water uncrossable did something to Jeanne (that maybe Jeanne herself isn't fully aware of). This thought has occurred to me as well. The entire concept of Jeanne's creation as impassable guardian is just too swiss-cheesed with logic holes. You may be taking Coyote's quote " nothing can pass" too literally. We know birds can fly over the river so its not absolutely impassable. Its just something happened to the water and whoever has tried to cross has died/disappeared. Possibly some things have crossed successfully but Coyote is speaking of the river and that something is going on with it. Its not even that its impassible, just anything that comes within reach of Jeanne will most likely be killed. She doesn't seem to care that the girls aren't trying to cross.
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Post by Casey on Sept 29, 2010 19:55:05 GMT
I'm old and my memory is fading but I'm pretty sure that Tom said on Formspring that Jeanne -is- the thing that makes the Waters impassible.
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Post by djublonskopf on Sept 29, 2010 19:55:44 GMT
This thought has occurred to me as well. The entire concept of Jeanne's creation as impassable guardian is just too swiss-cheesed with logic holes. You may be taking Coyote's quote " nothing can pass" too literally. We know birds can fly over the river so its not absolutely impassable. Its just something happened to the water and whoever has tried to cross has died/disappeared. Possibly some things have crossed successfully but Coyote is speaking of the river and that something is going on with it. Its not even that its impassible, just anything that comes within reach of Jeanne will most likely be killed. She doesn't seem to care that the girls aren't trying to cross. Oh, Coyote wasn't the only one who brought up the idea of the waters being uncrossable. Granted, two of those are restricted to Jeanne being unable (theoretically) to cross and the third one is just saying "the waters must be fortified" . . . but taken in combination with Coyote's statement, it seems like maybe stuff can't cross the water. I'm old and my memory is fading but I'm pretty sure that Tom said on Formspring that Jeanne -is- the thing that makes the Waters impassible. EDIT: Yup, yup, you're right. I just found it. Dang.
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Post by jayne on Sept 29, 2010 20:09:42 GMT
I'm old and my memory is fading but I'm pretty sure that Tom said on Formspring that Jeanne -is- the thing that makes the Waters impassible. Found it!
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Post by q3 on Sept 29, 2010 20:13:17 GMT
Jeanne's ghost is the reason nothing can cross the Annan Waters.*Edit - heh, Tom sure got pestered about that one a bunch. It seems to me that one guard with a sword (who hates the people she's supposed to be defending) is a ridiculously bad way to make an entire giant river uncrossable. What would she do if two people tried crossing in different places? She's not one guard with a sword - she doesn't even use her sword. She's an etheric being. And etheric beings can apparently be in multiple locations at once, doing multiple things (otherwise Ketrak would have an impossible task).
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Post by djublonskopf on Sept 29, 2010 20:13:46 GMT
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Post by chibicarrera on Sept 29, 2010 20:21:36 GMT
But why would the court put her there to just kill anything that crossed? Still too many plot holes.
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