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Post by Casey on Sept 23, 2010 16:51:26 GMT
If the arrow wasn't intended to hit anybody, but instead was just a carrier for whatever nefarious gas / magic / nanobots / psychopomp-repellant was inside that cylindrical arrow contraption, then it makes more sense.
They probably needed a soul, a soldier's soul, to be bound to the shore in order to combat etheric things trying to cross the river. Diego was the one who insisted on it being Jeanne, presumably due to some "If I can't have her, nobody can have her" megalomania.
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monte
Junior Member
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Post by monte on Sept 23, 2010 16:57:13 GMT
There are a number of ways it could still make sense. I had always figured that she didn't know about the Court's plan to take her to the ravine until that day, or possibly the day before. If she set up the meeting beforehand, it means the Court probably knows about it. I'd be fearful of my escape plans being in the hands of the people I was trying to escape. Alternately, they could've known the Court's plans to put her in the ravine, and try to use that as a convenient time to escape, since she'd be let out of the tower. Waiting three hours after being lowered down there doesn't make much sense to me, but they only told her that they were putting her down there, not why, or what would happen. Maybe she just thought it was exile. Either way, people you don't trust want to toss you in a ravine. I'd certainly be apprehensive about that, regardless of whatever plans I'd made. According to Tom, Jeanne was being send to the river and she decided to use the occasion to escape.Since Jeanne was a good solder of the court, they wouldn't have to explain why she was being send down there. I see, that does make sense... though still it is kinda bad that isn't made clear within the comic itself; the primary problem being that it is not made clear what the order of the events are... we probably should have had one of the note's jeanne wrote point out that the court was sending her down to the river, as opposed to simply "escape"
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 17:16:55 GMT
I see, that does make sense... though still it is kinda bad that isn't made clear within the comic itself; the primary problem being that it is not made clear what the order of the events are... we probably should have had one of the note's jeanne wrote point out that the court was sending her down to the river, as opposed to simply "escape" As soon as the vision end, the girls will be discussing what we've been seeing and more details like this may be revealed. We only know this in advance because someone asked.
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Post by zylonbane on Sept 23, 2010 18:06:16 GMT
Y'know, if Annie and/or Parley help Jeanne to finally pass on, and Jeanne's spirit turns out to have in fact been what was making the Annan waters impassable (except by spunky young sparks with antigrav bikes), there are probably going to be some pretty damn serious repercussions.
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 18:14:05 GMT
Y'know, if Annie and/or Parley help Jeanne to finally pass on, and Jeanne's spirit turns out to have in fact been what was making the Annan waters impassable (except by spunky young sparks with antigrav bikes), there are probably going to be some pretty damn serious repercussions. YUP!! Ysengrin might be one of those serious repercussions!
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Sept 23, 2010 18:51:57 GMT
They probably needed a soul, a soldier's soul, to be bound to the shore in order to combat etheric things trying to cross the river. Diego was the one who insisted on it being Jeanne, presumably due to some "If I can't have her, nobody can have her" megalomania. Tom also confirmed on Formspring that the plan legitimately would only have worked with Jeanne ( www.formspring.me/gunnerkrigg/q/866575098) so there has to be something else going on here, too. Not to say that wasn't Diego's motivation, because it's pretty evident that it was a spurned lover thing.
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 19:04:28 GMT
They probably needed a soul, a soldier's soul, to be bound to the shore in order to combat etheric things trying to cross the river. Diego was the one who insisted on it being Jeanne, presumably due to some "If I can't have her, nobody can have her" megalomania. Tom also confirmed on Formspring that the plan legitimately would only have worked with Jeanne ( www.formspring.me/gunnerkrigg/q/866575098) so there has to be something else going on here, too. Not to say that wasn't Diego's motivation, because it's pretty evident that it was a spurned lover thing. The plan would only work with Jeanne but it was Diego's plan... If he hadn't been a spurned lover, he would have devised another plan. If she had returned his affections (ew) he wouldn't have flung her over the cliff anyway!
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 19:26:57 GMT
Here it is, just hours before we find out what happens and we still haven't figured out if Jeanne gets shot, Greenguy gets shot, or something else gets shot...
this is a tricky comic...
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 23, 2010 19:30:08 GMT
We should remember that this must have been a tense time for the Court; whatever "terrible squabble" was going on, Coyote cut it short by ripping the Forest in two. So, not only is there Ysengrin but there's a capricious and angry demi-god over on the other side of the divide. That's a grave existential threat if there ever was one. Young and the other founders probably didn't want to wake up every morning and wonder if this would be the day that Coyote decided to nance over and wipe them all out or simply unleash Ysengrin for whatever (or no) reason.
All of the details aren't known yet but I suppose that the advantage to sacrificing Jeanne is that the Court creates a permanent and deadly barrier to raids or incursion from the Forest. No doubt the Court had other soldiers who could've been placed at the edge to guard but that would've required a lot of manpower and there is such a thing as human error. With Jeanne's ghost in place the Court has felt secure with only mechanical alarms, and the cost was only one soldier who's ultimate loyalty may have been in question anyway.
Is that a cold calculation? Sure. Would Young have seen that as the right move to safeguard the Court at the time? Probably.
That begs the question, what would we have done in Young's place?
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Post by Rex on Sept 23, 2010 19:33:42 GMT
It could only work with Jeanne? Is it possible that the seal needed someone who had a strong tie to the woods? That begs the question, what would we have done in Young's place? At first I thought I wouldn't do something like that if put in his shoes. But after thinking it through, I probably would. They had a forest full of hostile creatures using inexplicable energy/power and a GOD on their side whose powers are insane. I don't think one tragic love story trumps protecting the Court's residents from being slaughtered. Their protection is his primary concern.
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 19:35:10 GMT
We should remember that this must have been a tense time for the Court; whatever "terrible squabble" was going on, Coyote cut it short by ripping the Forest in two. So, not only is there Ysengrin but there's a capricious and angry demi-god over on the other side of the divide. That's a grave existential threat if there ever was one. Young and the other founders probably didn't want to wake up every morning and wonder if this would be the day that Coyote decided to nance over and wipe them all out or simply unleash Ysengrin for whatever (or no) reason. All of the details aren't known yet but I suppose that the advantage to sacrificing Jeanne is that the Court creates a permanent and deadly barrier to raids or incursion from the Forest. No doubt the Court had other soldiers who could've been placed at the edge to guard but that would've required a lot of manpower and there is such a thing as human error. With Jeanne's ghost in place the Court has felt secure with only mechanical alarms, and the cost was only one soldier who's ultimate loyalty may have been in question anyway. Is that a cold calculation? Sure. Would Young have seen that as the right move to safeguard the Court at the time? Probably. That begs the question, what would we have done in Young's place? There's really nothing preventing Coyote or Ysengrin from simply crossing the bridge right now. With all those lights, I think the court might have feared an attack from hordes of malicious shadow men... like the one that pushed Annie off the bridge.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 23, 2010 19:39:47 GMT
There's really nothing preventing Coyote or Ysengrin from simply crossing the bridge right now. With all those lights, I think the court might have feared an attack from hordes of malicious shadow men... like the one that pushed Annie off the bridge. Yeah but the bridge was built much later, on the Court's terms. By then things had probably calmed down. And sure, the lights are a barrier to keep shadow-men from slipping across.
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 19:46:05 GMT
Hmm.... first there was a forest, then men came to 'become god' with the forest creatures, then they barricaded themselves away from the forest creatures because they feared the forest creatures.
Meanwhile, I don't think the forest creatures could care less about these silly humans and their short lives. Even with Jeanne there, the shadow men could get past her. If you cut a shadow, nothing happens. I'm pretty sure, if the forest really wanted to get rid of the humans, they would have by now.
Coyote sends up a signal asking if they can visit, or requesting a visit. He can grab the moon, he doesn't need to ask permission for anything, and yet he does ask.
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Post by zylonbane on Sept 23, 2010 20:33:19 GMT
Meanwhile, I don't think the forest creatures could care less about these silly humans and their short lives. Except for the ones like Ysengrin who want to destroy all humans, the ones who want to become human (in sufficient numbers that they have their own House), and the ones who used to be human. Furthermore, humans are among the longest-lived species on the planet. So... yeah.
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 20:36:59 GMT
Meanwhile, I don't think the forest creatures could care less about these silly humans and their short lives. Except for the ones like Ysengrin who want to destroy all humans, the ones who want to become human (in sufficient numbers that they have their own House), and the ones who used to be human. Furthermore, humans are among the longest-lived species on the planet. So... yeah. Where are you getting your notes? Did you forget this is a fantasy story? "humans are among the longest-lived species on the planet." Okay HOW old is Coyote? As for Ysengrin, what's stopping him from destroying humans now? He walks Annie through the forest, couldn't he just rip her to shreds at any moment? Eglamore could give him a good fight, why aren't they fighting?
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monte
Junior Member
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Post by monte on Sept 23, 2010 20:59:41 GMT
Well if elfboy really is the target, then that would help explain why only jeanne would work. She's probably the only person in the court that could lure one of the creatures of the forest to the middle of the river... diego and young were likely hoping that elfboy would take a chance to see jeanne, and it went according to plan. Though this would not explain how Jeanne herself died... it's possible the device ended up killing everything down by the waters. Suicide seems possible, but less so with the way her bones were arranged... I also kind of have to question jeanne's choice of attire... i mean did the court instruct her to wear that? cause if not then i have to question wearing a nice flowing dress when she was planning to escape the court... might want clothing more suited for swimming Except for the ones like Ysengrin who want to destroy all humans, the ones who want to become human (in sufficient numbers that they have their own House), and the ones who used to be human. Furthermore, humans are among the longest-lived species on the planet. So... yeah. As for Ysengrin, what's stopping him from destroying humans now? He walks Annie through the forest, couldn't he just rip her to shreds at any moment? Eglamore could give him a good fight, why aren't they fighting? Coyote's the only thing stopping him... as for why coyote doesn't want to destory gunnerkrigg; well Coyote is quite the enigma. Though one thing were might have to ask is how invincible coyote really believes himself to be compared to the court's technology. Afterall while he did create the annan river, the court managed to create a barrier that even he could not remove. This might make him think twice about ever having a fight with the court... afterall, i would think that, if anything, Reynard's capture would have spurred him to fight if he thought it would be easy enough thinking about it, while Coyote did separate the forest and the court, that very act would spark quite a bit of fear in the court... it is afterall one hell of an amazing display of power
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Post by zylonbane on Sept 23, 2010 21:08:50 GMT
You seem to be suggesting that Coyote is typical of the creatures of the forest. Seriously?
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Post by warrl on Sept 23, 2010 21:32:23 GMT
Where are you getting your notes? Did you forget this is a fantasy story? "humans are among the longest-lived species on the planet." Okay HOW old is Coyote? Coyote is not a species, he's a demigod. While Reynard and Ysengrim are mythic archetypes. As such they are immortal. But most wolves, foxes, and coyotes are NOT demigods, mythic archetypes, or otherwise immortal. And look at the number of different entities that have crossed the Annan Waters (mostly on the bridge) without any sort of transformation. Robot, Shadow,2, Coyote, Ysengrim, Reynardine, Antimony Carver, James Eglamore, Surma Stibnite, Katrina Donlan, a bunch of Tic-Tocs, at least one psychopomp (probably by an indirect route). That we definitely know of. Then there are the mere likelies: a couple of treedogs, a certain dryad and her husband, Mr. Thorn, the various Rogat Orjaks. Apparently, crossing the Annan Waters is not the problem. The problem is what gets done to you after you cross.
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Post by arucard on Sept 23, 2010 21:44:54 GMT
Coyote's the only thing stopping him... as for why coyote doesn't want to destory gunnerkrigg; well Coyote is quite the enigma. Though one thing were might have to ask is how invincible coyote really believes himself to be compared to the court's technology. Afterall while he did create the annan river, the court managed to create a barrier that even he could not remove. This might make him think twice about ever having a fight with the court... afterall, i would think that, if anything, Reynard's capture would have spurred him to fight if he thought it would be easy enough thinking about it, while Coyote did separate the forest and the court, that very act would spark quite a bit of fear in the court... it is afterall one hell of an amazing display of power Are we sure Coyote couldn't get rid of Jeanne's ghost and/or whatever other power is safeguarding the river? I'm pretty sure he just doesn't care about it... And how much did he actually care about Reynardine's capture? Maybe he just thought Reynard deserved this; maye he believed it was best for Reynard to handle the situation by himself; or maybe he just knew Annie was gonna come along anyway... That's the greatest thing about Coyote, he's a complete mystery. But my opinion is he's definitelly powerful enough to wipe out the whole Court if he decides to do so...
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 22:10:27 GMT
Meanwhile, I don't think the forest creatures could care less about these silly humans and their short lives. Except for the ones like Ysengrin who want to destroy all humans, the ones who want to become human (in sufficient numbers that they have their own House), and the ones who used to be human. Furthermore, humans are among the longest-lived species on the planet. So... yeah. Dude, I don't know why you have a problem with my theories... they're just theories about a story we're reading! You don't have to blow them down whenever you read them EVEN if you don't agree! So, the above does NOT assume Coyote is a typical forest creature. I didn't say it and I don't know where you're getting that from. BUT Coyote, Ysengrin, Reynard are very long lived. Dryads, fairies, and whatever greenguy is probably have a longer life than humans. They also probably have special properties that humans do not have. In any case, in a fantasy story, there's no reason to assume "humans are among the longest-lived species on the planet." This isn't regular Earth. When I say "forest creatures", I mean the magic ones, not the regular forest animals. "Seriously?' "So... yeah." Come on, get over it!
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Post by todd on Sept 23, 2010 22:20:02 GMT
The Court could have tried making peace with the Wood (whatever you can say about Coyote and Ysengrin, the evidence is that the Court were at least partly responsible for the troubles). Which they'll have to do if Jeanne *does* get freed.
(I thought also of the option of moving - but I suspect that by the time of Jeanne's death, the Court might have become too entrenched in its past location to go somewhere else; it certainly seems to have become too entrenched by now. There's also the question of what they were fleeing. If they were only innocent refugees from a war - as in, villagers scrambling to get out of the way of the advancing armies - maybe it would have been safe to go back if the war was over - depending on how long it had lasted. If they had actually participated in the war, lost, and were fleeing the victors - maybe even a quashed rebellion and heading into exile, which might fit the robot horse's recitation of the "War in Heaven" scenes from "Paradise Lost" back in "Red Returns" - that would most likely not have been so easy; Sir Young and his friends could still be facing treason charges.)
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 22:21:11 GMT
Coyote's the only thing stopping him... as for why coyote doesn't want to destory gunnerkrigg; well Coyote is quite the enigma. Though one thing were might have to ask is how invincible coyote really believes himself to be compared to the court's technology. Afterall while he did create the annan river, the court managed to create a barrier that even he could not remove. This might make him think twice about ever having a fight with the court... afterall, i would think that, if anything, Reynard's capture would have spurred him to fight if he thought it would be easy enough thinking about it, while Coyote did separate the forest and the court, that very act would spark quite a bit of fear in the court... it is afterall one hell of an amazing display of power Are we sure Coyote couldn't get rid of Jeanne's ghost and/or whatever other power is safeguarding the river? I'm pretty sure he just doesn't care about it... And how much did he actually care about Reynardine's capture? Maybe he just thought Reynard deserved this; maye he believed it was best for Reynard to handle the situation by himself; or maybe he just knew Annie was gonna come along anyway... That's the greatest thing about Coyote, he's a complete mystery. But my opinion is he's definitelly powerful enough to wipe out the whole Court if he decides to do so... I can't find the right quote but I think Tom said Coyote wouldn't want to mess with Jeanne. I did find this one though.Edit: I found the word of Tom: Would a being on par with Coyote be in danger if they went too close to the Annan Waters (i.e. within Jeanne's reach?)
Quite possibly
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 22:27:55 GMT
The Court could have tried making peace with the Wood (whatever you can say about Coyote and Ysengrin, the evidence is that the Court were at least partly responsible for the troubles). Which they'll have to do if Jeanne *does* get freed. (I thought also of the option of moving - but I suspect that by the time of Jeanne's death, the Court might have become too entrenched in its past location to go somewhere else; it certainly seems to have become too entrenched by now. There's also the question of what they were fleeing. If they were only innocent refugees from a war - as in, villagers scrambling to get out of the way of the advancing armies - maybe it would have been safe to go back if the war was over - depending on how long it had lasted. If they had actually participated in the war, lost, and were fleeing the victors - maybe even a quashed rebellion and heading into exile, which might fit the robot horse's recitation of the "War in Heaven" scenes from "Paradise Lost" back in "Red Returns" - that would most likely not have been so easy; Sir Young and his friends could still be facing treason charges.) I get the feeling there's something no quite right about the court founders. They seem a bit paranoid and dangerously so. I don't see that in the current court but I don't see much of what's going on currently. The highest ranking official we've met has been the headmaster.
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Post by jayne on Sept 23, 2010 22:37:19 GMT
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monte
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by monte on Sept 23, 2010 22:47:48 GMT
Coyote's the only thing stopping him... as for why coyote doesn't want to destory gunnerkrigg; well Coyote is quite the enigma. Though one thing were might have to ask is how invincible coyote really believes himself to be compared to the court's technology. Afterall while he did create the annan river, the court managed to create a barrier that even he could not remove. This might make him think twice about ever having a fight with the court... afterall, i would think that, if anything, Reynard's capture would have spurred him to fight if he thought it would be easy enough thinking about it, while Coyote did separate the forest and the court, that very act would spark quite a bit of fear in the court... it is afterall one hell of an amazing display of power And how much did he actually care about Reynardine's capture? Maybe he just thought Reynard deserved this; maye he believed it was best for Reynard to handle the situation by himself; or maybe he just knew Annie was gonna come along anyway... You can see how he took the news of his capture Coyote does seem to really want to get reynard back Also i would mention that Coyote would have no way to make certain that reynard was not killed in the court, so leaving him captured as a "lesson" would be pretty damn risky I get the feeling there's something no quite right about the court founders. They seem a bit paranoid and dangerously so. I don't see that in the current court but I don't see much of what's going on currently. The highest ranking official we've met has been the headmaster. Dangerously paranoid is pretty standard in human society... I don't want to get too political, but would say that a lot of wars and conflict in the world have their roots in paranoia; countries have taken drastic preemptive measure just out of the fear of future conflict, and in turn just ended up CREATING new enemies and new problems. And seeing a demi, who has no loyalty to you and is on the side you have become opposed to, singlehandedly cuts deep into earth... that will trigger that paranoia
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 23, 2010 23:41:59 GMT
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Post by fuzzyone on Sept 24, 2010 1:49:07 GMT
www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=135To those speculating on the 3 hour length of time mentioned... I think this is the only time we see an object of any scale on the opposite shore. Jeanne is barely a speck over there. if she didn't glow to Annie, she'd be pretty dang hard to see. I can easily see a river this wide taking a long time to cross, giving Steadman plenty of time to line up a shot, if Greenie McStudmuffin was the intended target.
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Post by jayne on Sept 24, 2010 1:51:20 GMT
www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=135To those speculating on the 3 hour length of time mentioned... I think this is the only time we see an object of any scale on the opposite shore. Jeanne is barely a speck over there. if she didn't glow to Annie, she'd be pretty dang hard to see. I can easily see a river this wide taking a long time to cross, giving Steadman plenty of time to line up a shot, if Greenie McStudmuffin was the intended target. Aye but its much taller than it is wide...wouldn't he be a smaller speck from the top?
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Necropaxx
Full Member
The natural choice for a shoulder to cry on.
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Post by Necropaxx on Sept 24, 2010 2:02:08 GMT
The artwork on this page is sublime. Great work again, Mr. Siddell!
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monte
Junior Member
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Post by monte on Sept 24, 2010 2:32:34 GMT
www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=135To those speculating on the 3 hour length of time mentioned... I think this is the only time we see an object of any scale on the opposite shore. Jeanne is barely a speck over there. if she didn't glow to Annie, she'd be pretty dang hard to see. I can easily see a river this wide taking a long time to cross, giving Steadman plenty of time to line up a shot, if Greenie McStudmuffin was the intended target. Aye but its much taller than it is wide...wouldn't he be a smaller speck from the top? we've seen people such as Eglamore and his predecessor do huge leaps, far beyond any human... should we be surprised that steadman has the eyes to spot such a far away target and the archery skill to hit it? Hell i wouldn't be surprised if those messages he was sending for Jeanne landing right next to elfboy when he was minding his own business in the middle of the forest
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