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Post by warrl on Jun 24, 2010 22:43:42 GMT
so when Annie entered into crazyland we were supposed to instinctively know that the person in panels 1-4 wasn't the same person as the person in panels 5 onwards? Because I can honestly say that it was never clear to me. Gamma could've been delusional. or a figment of somebody's imagination. Right. At that point (when Gamma told us that Annie was Zimmy), either a) Zimmy is delusional, and thinks she is Annie b) Gamma is delusional, and thinks Annie is Zimmy c) Annie is delusional, and thinks Gamma is there We had no clear evidence to indicate which of these three possibilities was the case. Further, in all three cases there are reasons to say "that's probably wrong" - in that the hypothetically-delusional character should have spotted a problem: a) Zimmy knows that Annie doesn't do telepathy with Gamma but does speak Polish - and that Gamma doesn't understand much English. "Annie" hearing Gamma's telepathy and Gamma understanding "Annie"'s English: two problems. b) Gamma knows that Zimmy rarely bothers to speak aloud when talking telepathically with her. Why would "Zimmy" do so? c) It wouldn't make sense for Annie to imagine Gamma mistaking her for Zimmy. Further, Annie also knows that Gamma doesn't understand much English, so why would she imagine Gamma understanding English? And Annie isn't telepathic, so why would she imagine herself hearing Gamma's telepathy? It means that someone forgot to give the trees their Dilantin. I'm going to eat my hats now. ALL SEVEN OF THEMNow, now, Mr. Cubbins, calm down... So, how did you logically dismiss Zimmy-as-Annie verbally tripping over her own identity, not once but twice? First time: started to say "Antimony", switched to "Annie". Second time: so sleepy she can barely walk, has been hearing Gamma's white-noise stream of consciousness refer to her as Zimmy for a while. (Both work for both Zimmy-as-Annie and Annie-as-Annie.)
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Post by todd on Jun 24, 2010 23:12:50 GMT
If Annie was really Zimmy-looking-like-Annie the whole time, then why did Gamma's stream of consciousness affect her so differently? Something to ponder. Spider-possessed Jack's malign influence on Zimmy's nightmare world?
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Necropaxx
Full Member
The natural choice for a shoulder to cry on.
Posts: 135
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Post by Necropaxx on Jun 24, 2010 23:40:05 GMT
Hey, the panels have righted themselves.
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Post by Rex on Jun 25, 2010 0:07:55 GMT
Hey, the panels have righted themselves. It's things like people pointing out the panels going all crazy as they got near the spider's nest, or that the lake wasn't drained that make me love this webcomic (and its community).
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blue
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by blue on Jun 25, 2010 1:46:19 GMT
Ok so are you guys bad enough dudes to start making guesses about the ton 'o jack? My theory still remains that everyone is Elgamore.
Anyway at this point nothing would make me happier than Zimmy yanking off the spider and crushing it Jones-style or something else painfully simple.
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Jun 25, 2010 2:34:16 GMT
Well if Zimmy and Annie's minds were linked, it's fairly easy then for Zimmy to have gotten the information she needed - that Jack was looking for her, that there was a "spider" on him, and that things were really bad. I'd be curious to know what Annie got out of the entire experience herself. Well, I agree more or less, but as I said in another post, I don't think there was much in the way of intentionality; we'll see, hopefully... Definitely want to hear what Annie has to say, but I fear that TS will hold back and we will hear the exterior Annie describe what happened without all the detail of an interior view... but that's the way it always seems to happen anyway...
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Post by Casey on Jun 25, 2010 2:36:28 GMT
Ok so are you guys bad enough dudes to start making guesses about the ton 'o jack? My theory still remains that everyone is Elgamore. Anyway at this point nothing would make me happier than Zimmy yanking off the spider and crushing it Jones-style or something else painfully simple. You know, you make a good point that with all the other craziness going on, we haven't really explored the question of "Dude what's up with all these Jacks!?" As for me... I have no idea. Assuming each of them are a different MemoryJack, then where'd they all come from? Why do they look the same?
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blue
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by blue on Jun 25, 2010 3:44:37 GMT
Why do we only need one more?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 25, 2010 5:36:21 GMT
[Nobodies are] not identical to the original. Kat's hair demonstrated that.... I am forever dumbfounded by how many people take that joke seriously. Sure I know Tom was joking in his comment about us missing it, but my point is that the hair length really did change. Ok so are you guys bad enough dudes to start making guesses about the ton 'o jack? Sure, why not? Assuming that Gamma was right about normal-Jack being a memory (or set of memories about Jack) the only reason I can think of for Spider-Jack to collect them is that it has something to do with the spider's grip on him. Since that memory-Jack was the last one needed I will theorize that if it had been captured then the possession would've been irreversible. Memory-Jack is either the last one still roaming wild and free, or the last one he/they need to reach some sort of threshold to achieve the result they want. And by the way, Spider-Jack isn't happy about not succeeding. Check out panel 5. He's in a classic "curses you've foiled my evil plans and now you must pay" crouch. [I'm sure there's a trope for this but I'm too lazy to look it up.] If I were Jack I think the best way to get revenge and the fastest ticket back to Zimmingham might be to punt Gamma off the roof quickly, hoping to catch people off-guard while still adjusting to reality. Sure, the rain might prevent the event from happening right this second but without Gamma Zimmy would be just an acid-trip looking for a place to happen. My second choice would be to just escape and try again later. However, Jack isn't sane. I guess he'll lash out at the nearest person without any plan and I think that'd be Zimmy. Possible outcomes of Jack attacking Zimmy include: 1. Zimmy bites Jack's arachnid off 2. Zimmy bites Jack someplace much more painful 3. Antimony puts Jack into a submission hold 4. Jones uses stony kung-fu grip to make Jack plead for mercy 5. Jack somehow manages to fly away before the girls kick his ass I think it'd be more interesting if Jack escaped to menace Zimmy and Gamma another day but I don't think it's very likely. Jack-attack just isn't a smart move, but he may assume they're helpless because he thinks Reynardine trapped and he doesn't know Antimony can fight and Jones is waiting in the wings. Or he may just not care. It's late as I write this and I may be projecting, since I guess I'd be sad if the Spring-Heeled chapters end without Jack attacking at least one female character, because that's what Spring-Heeled Jack is famous for.
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Post by Zayzie on Jun 25, 2010 10:07:32 GMT
Because "Gamma" was hammering "Antimony" with warm fuzzies and the notion she was Zimmy via telepathy. I was expecting to see a Nobody try to infect Antimony. I definitely agree here. I thought Zimmy-as-Annie was Annie, and that she was becoming affected/infected by the whole atmosphere, especially the telepathy. Well in fact she was, but in a much different way - it was Zimmy looking and acting like Annie all along. Not completely like Annie, but superficially. Meanwhile, real Annie was elsewhere, looking like Zimmy. I found this hard to believe after Gamma touched Jack's hand and identified him as a memory, and then we saw spider-jack who clearly proved this to be true. So from this, I assumed that Gamma knew what she was doing, and was able to recognize illusion from reality, and if she could do that with a mere touch, and her and Zimmy were linked by the brain so they could speak telepathically, then I think assuming Gamma wouldn't realize the difference between Annie's brain and Zimmy's brain is a large leap in logic, that I have yet to see anyone explain away while considering Gamma realized memory-jack was, in fact, a memory. Now you could go with the argument that spider-jack made everything an illusion, and worked very hard at guessing exactly what everyone was going to say and making sure people responded in such a way to appear as though they were real, but it came out very jumbled-but from a storytelling perspective, I think we're giving spider-jack more credit than he deserves. He is very intelligent, but I think that's Jack's book smart intelligence, otherwise he hasn't exactly shown he knows how to keep someone from interfering with his shenanigans. Spider-jack seemed much more attentive to just wanting to get power rather than thinking anyone could stop him, which Zimmy apparently had the ability to do all along. He also seemed to think he could persuade anyone who wanted this power to go along with his plans, and thus far he has been shot down twice. Once by Annie, and another by Zimmy who didn't even let him finish what he was saying. He hasn't been a very good learner. There were also the fact that memory Jack said "Zimmy" could make people disappear, something we know Zimmy can't do, and needs Gamma or Annie for. I think that we all also have to assume that a things happen off-page, and we will not be privvy to every detail of information presented to us, and that sometimes we must make assumptions. However, we have been led astray by assumptions before, so people are naturally conscious of this. Since people are very stubborn about their theories, evidence and lack-thereof, I think Tom has done a fantastic job of making an audience who like to double-guess themselves for the sake of double-guessing themselves until they think they have figured out every twist and turn of what was going on. (Not that this is a bad thing, but it just seems that we're all being amusingly paranoid.)
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Post by todd on Jun 25, 2010 10:49:58 GMT
Ok so are you guys bad enough dudes to start making guesses about the ton 'o jack? My theory still remains that everyone is Elgamore. One minor point - I see this a lot, and it's beginning to worry me. It should be "Eglamore", not "Elgamore". The g comes before the l. (Maybe we should give up and start writing his name as "James".)
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Post by Per on Jun 25, 2010 14:05:22 GMT
Elgamore's Law states that the likelihood of his name being misspelled in a post is proportional to its silliness.
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Post by the bandit on Jun 25, 2010 16:26:47 GMT
...but my point is that the hair length really did change. And my point is no, it really did not. Most people who think so link comparison pics to after her hair is wet. So real Kat's hair is longer ... because it's not wet. You should've known she was a fake! It doesn't even make coherent sense as a theory goes: it was a Memory!Kat, so her hair is shorter. But it's Memory!Kat from 5 minutes ago... hair doesn't grow that fast.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 25, 2010 19:20:50 GMT
...but my point is that the hair length really did change. And my point is no, it really did not. Most people who think so link comparison pics to after her hair is wet. So real Kat's hair is longer ... because it's not wet. You should've known she was a fake! It doesn't even make coherent sense as a theory goes: it was a Memory!Kat, so her hair is shorter. But it's Memory!Kat from 5 minutes ago... hair doesn't grow that fast. Last point first: You're making a hidden assumption that Memory Kat must be from the last time Antimony saw Kat. I understand why someone might think that because Kat is wearing similar clothes, but that's her uniform jacket. Kat's hair is not always drawn exactly the same from panel to panel but it has varied a bit over the course of the comic. There was even a chapter about haircuts. Since the unveiling of Legion of Jack I think that an assumption that Memory Kat must be of Kat from five minutes ago is very intellectually dangerous. First Point: Toss out the wet-hair pictures and the panels where Kat is roughly drawn in the background and compare Kat from the beginning of the chapter and her last "present day" appearance in the previous chapter with Memory-Kat. The hats and the way the coat collar turns up and the angle of the head make it hard to say with certainty but it does look to me like Memory Kat's hair doesn't reach past the collar nearly as often. But, since there is some estimation going on I am not prepared to tell you you're wrong. If you've looked at the same panels and come to the opposite conclusion I respect that.
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Post by bonestheheretic on Jun 25, 2010 20:06:55 GMT
It's hard to tell if her hair is longer or not at the back, but her bangs definitely looked longer to me.
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Post by the bandit on Jun 25, 2010 20:08:07 GMT
So it's Memory!Kat with clothes from 5 minutes ago and hair from 5 weeks ago.
What I find very intellectually dangerous is forming any substantial speculation on what could possibly (probably, in my opinion) be nothing more than Tom's dry wit, particularly in regards to such a regularly variable visual cue.
I'll be honest: When I first read that comment by Tom, I went backward just to make sure he wasn't being serious. He wasn't, best as I can tell.
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Post by nikita on Jun 25, 2010 20:56:36 GMT
I don't see a difference in length and always assumed it was a joke. However, rereading that part (again), real Kat is wearing a hat and has wet hair when Zimmingham starts - Memory-Kat doesn't - maybe because Annie, as shown in page 459 wasn't looking at her. So if Tom really gave us a hint, I think it's more likely to be this, rather than a homeopathic change in something as fuzzy as hair length.
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Post by triplets on Jun 25, 2010 22:06:03 GMT
Glad to see the nerds have stopped arguing about who's prediction was right.
Hello! First time poster, long time lurker.
I think what we've witnessed today (apart from a great comic) is Tom's art shifting gears. It's always been improving over the years but I think today I can say it's tangibly gone up a notch.
Lovely to see Occam's Laser in full effect in dealing with the spider. SQUISH. Zimmy's serene-ness is great and a nice prize after sticking through what I found quite a frustrating chapter. Frustrating in terms of pacing which is more, frankly, to do with the update schedule than in a storytelling capacity and should read nicely in the trade.
Anything else? Oh yeah, I think Zimmy is totally tripping on Carver-sauce right now. Whether it's going to be a permanent effect or not, who knows? But i'd like it to be. It'd be great to explore Zimmy as something other than a total c-word.
That's right, I'll say it: a "cranky-sue"
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 25, 2010 23:00:41 GMT
I don't see a difference in length and always assumed it was a joke. I think we're all agreed it was a joke. The question now is, how far did the joke go? When I first read that comment by Tom I did roll back and reread the chapter and decided that Fake Kat's hair might be a wee bit shorter on average. I didn't know if Tom did that on purpose because he knew Kat wasn't Kat, or if it just happened in the course of drawing Kat over and over. Man, I miss college. Back when I was a TA I could just get a few underclassmen to tackle this problem for extra credit (or a free pass out of class with attendance intact). I could probably model the problem but I don't have the time to cut out all the pictures of Kat, figure out how to measure hair area and/or length, figure the standard dev and significance. Any of you guys on the forum have SPSS or Excel and a ton of free time? I'm sure actually doing a mathmatical model on Kat's hair and posting the results will earn you a very special place in Tom's esteem. Maybe not a good place, but a place. However, rereading that part (again), real Kat is wearing a hat and has wet hair when Zimmingham starts - Memory-Kat doesn't - maybe because Annie, as shown in page 459 wasn't looking at her. So if Tom really gave us a hint, I think it's more likely to be this, rather than a homeopathic change in something as fuzzy as hair length. Maybe. The missing floppy hat doesn't bother me much, that could've been rolled up and put in a pocket. The vanishing backpack does bother me a little but again I suppose it could've been stashed somewhere. My main point was that after this Spring-Heeled chapter we can't really go by just what we're seeing there. Glad to see the nerds have stopped arguing about who's prediction was right. Change topics, sure. Quit arguing? Never! By the way: Welcome to the forums, Triplets! I think what we've witnessed today (apart from a great comic) is Tom's art shifting gears. It's always been improving over the years but I think today I can say it's tangibly gone up a notch. Indeed. Before the joke about missing Kat's hair length change I would never have considered looking for easter eggs in the comic down to this level of detail. That said, I have to admit a certain nostalgia for old Squid-head Annie and Bignose Donlan. Sure, they were a little rough but they had a certain charm, and the color palette was striking even in the earliest days of the comic. I wouldn't have been disappointed if the style never improved and the kids of GC stayed that way forever, just like the Peanuts gang.
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Post by todd on Jun 25, 2010 23:13:26 GMT
I wouldn't have been disappointed if the style never improved and the kids of GC stayed that way forever, just like the Peanuts gang. Actually, Charles Schulz's style *did* change in the course of "Peanuts". In the first few years, the characters' heads were a lot bigger than they became in the more familiar periods of the strip. Not to mention that, in the first few comics, Charlie Brown wore a plain shirt without the jagged mark across it (I'm not making this up; check the 1950-52 book in the Fantagraphics Books "Complete Peanuts" series), and Snoopy began as a cute little puppy who acted like a puppy, rather than the canine Walter Mitty that he later became.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 26, 2010 0:41:27 GMT
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 26, 2010 1:54:54 GMT
I wouldn't have been disappointed if the style never improved and the kids of GC stayed that way forever, just like the Peanuts gang. Actually, Charles Schulz's style *did* change in the course of "Peanuts". In the first few years, the characters' heads were a lot bigger than they became in the more familiar periods of the strip. Not to mention that, in the first few comics, Charlie Brown wore a plain shirt without the jagged mark across it (I'm not making this up; check the 1950-52 book in the Fantagraphics Books "Complete Peanuts" series), and Snoopy began as a cute little puppy who acted like a puppy, rather than the canine Walter Mitty that he later became. I didn't mean Charles Schulz's style was fossilized, but if you compare Peanuts in 1950 to 1999 and Gunnerkrigg Court 2005 to 2010 I think you'll see what I mean. I think it's fair to say Schulz generally stays minimalist in character design and setting, even in fantasy settings. Sure, Tom Siddell started with fairly detailed settings but both settings and characters are trending toward more complexity. Beyond that, the fact that the GC gang is growing up and starting to deal with grown up issues is a strong point of comparison by itself. Though that's the narrative style rather than the artistic style, it does come through in the subject matter. Man, I need to figure out how to get Formspring to load correctly. It loads screwy half the time and hangs every time I hit the "more" button so I've mostly stopped checking it for updates. I've tried clearing my cache but my browser just doesn't know what to do with it.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 26, 2010 8:44:50 GMT
Which browser are you using?
Also, a solution that worked for me back when formspring was even more screwy than it currently was, was to create a formspring account for myself and thereafter use my own page to look at the answers of the people I was "following".
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 26, 2010 8:50:28 GMT
As a sidenote, Real-Kat's hair did look to me slightly longer on reread than Memory-Kat's. Not MUCH longer (Annie would have noticed it if it was a huge change) but slightly so, yes.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 26, 2010 14:47:08 GMT
As a sidenote, Real-Kat's hair did look to me slightly longer on reread than Memory-Kat's. Not MUCH longer (Annie would have noticed it if it was a huge change) but slightly so, yes. If it was a huge change it would've been obvious to the readers too. Which browser are you using? AOL. Yeah, I know, but back when I got this account AOL was considered decent. I was even a beta-tester. I've been considering changing providers since forever but particularly since the last two versions. There's also issues with changing over because I've had some of the sn's associated with business things for many years, and because I live in an old building where there are serious problems with installing a dish or cable. I'm going to try playing with my security settings when I have some free time but I think Formspring and AOL are mutually antagonistic. If that doesn't work I may try making my own account. Thanks!
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Post by warrl on Jun 28, 2010 23:39:25 GMT
The thing is: from the point just past where Antimony called out to Zimmy, to the point just before where the rain started, YOU tell ME whether
a) Gamma is delusional ("Annie" is really Annie) b) Zimmy is delusional ("Annie" is really Zimmy) c) Annie is delusional ("Gamma" is not Gamma)
And I'll explain how that's at least as plausible as the other two alternatives.
Once the rain started, of course, a lot changed... but we didn't know that until the rain started.
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