preus
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Posts: 246
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Post by preus on Jun 23, 2010 10:38:40 GMT
Okay, so I'm thinking 'Annie' has been Zimmy since panel 5 page 729. But I'm having a hard time swallowing that 'Zimmy' has been Annie this whole time. She's been uncharacteristically passive. And I just can't make the words "Leave off" fit Annie's mouth. I'm not saying she wasn't Annie. It just doesn't sit right with me.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 23, 2010 10:41:09 GMT
...how did he misdirect us, when from the very start he had a character saying that the person we saw as Annie was in reality Zimmy, and then it was revealed that it indeed was Zimmy? We weren't misdirected. We were directed accurately to the right conclusion, and many of us accepted those directions, instead of second-guessing it (like others did). If he'd wanted it to be clear who was who he wouldn't have done the switch up in the first place. Understand, I was one of those who accurately guessed what was happening. I said Annie was Zimmy and Zimmy was Annie etc. But that does not mean that Tom was not misdirecting us and trying to confuse us. He very much was. This was a mind-screw situation, and make no mistake about that. thank you, Wanderer, for making the point I was trying to make before I had a chance to finish making it EDIT: and also Nikita. I should add that I do not consider misdirection, misleading or mind-screws to be a bad thing. On the contrary, I actually enjoyed this mind-screw, as confusing as it was. Regardless of who ended up being right, Tea-San was NEVER direct. That's just a side-effect of having a theory, sticking to it and having the good luck of being proven right. p.s. the "wacko" comment wasn't me. it sounds like it was meant to be a joke, but it didn't quite work. in any case, "wacko" should be reserved for the people wearing tinfoil hats, and that definitely does NOT apply to anybody here.
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 23, 2010 11:00:59 GMT
Gamma could've been delusional. or a figment of somebody's imagination. As pointed out at the time, Gamma is relatively uneffected by Zimmingham. And what she was saying was completely ludicrous unless it was true. If it hadn't been the case Annie was Zimmy, there wasn't any explanation for what Gamma was saying which could amount to more than "The author is lying to us to deliberately to make this us think Annie is Zimmy when she isn't". It doesn't make sense as a delusion (as she says it has happened before), and it doesn't make sense as a malicious lie, because unless that actually happens it's not believeable. Jack's been looking for Zimmy for months, and believes Zimmy is hiding from him www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=712I was making these arguments all along Some stuff was in the dark, but not other stuff. I can only guess a lot of people just haven't been exposed to work using an unreliable narrator before. Compared to stuff like Fight Club, this has been pretty clearly signposted from the start. (Although in this case I don't think unreliable narrator is a very accurate description - more like unreliable reality.) I've found the discussion around the last few updates really odd. I haven't commented much, because a lot of the discussion has been around trying to come up with increasng convoluted theories why Annie was apparently turning into Zimmy, while purposefully avoiding the "Annie is Zimmy" theory even as every update added more and more evidence it was the case. I bit my tongue, partly because I couldn't think of much to say that wasn't rude or just retreading old ground. I also had some weird idea that maybe there was some forum in-joke, where everyone just tried to come up with more and more ridicuolus explanations for what was going on, and giving the obvious explanation would mark me out as a newb. "It's all a simulation?" - I mean, seriously? The psycoanalysis stuff was particularily irritating, especially since one of the main objections to the "Annie is Zimmy" theory was "I don't want the story to go like that". Sorry for taking the chance to get this off my chest, when I know this will probably annoy a lot of people. As a final thing, I would just like to say that while there is obviously stuff that isn't known, I don't think there is anything obviously contradictory or confusing. People who think there is, would you like to say what you think doesn't make sense?
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Post by King Mir on Jun 23, 2010 11:01:22 GMT
The theory wasn't very wild. Gamma said that Annie-look-alike was Zimmy. This can be explained in one of two ways. Either Annie-look-alike was really Zimmy, or Gamma was confused. There's no apparent reason for Gamma to be confused. But there's no apparent reason why we would be seeing Zimmy as Annie. Why did they switch? Many people saw one possibility as much more likely than the other, but I'm sure everyone considered and evaluated both.
In terms of literary twists, this wasn't a particularly spectacular one. Unlike, for example, when Kat an illusion.
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Post by todd on Jun 23, 2010 11:10:11 GMT
I think that the biggest question isn't "When did the switch take place?" or "Why in-universe did the switch take place?", but "Why did the story take that direction?" When Jones sent Annie in, it was being set up as a major test for Annie as part of her medium training. Then the story follows a Zimmy who thinks that she's Annie instead, Annie (disguised as Zimmy) stays in the background, letting Zimmy confront Jack rather than trying to stop him herself, etc. That was why I had a hard time accepting the "Annie is really Zimmy" explanation, though apart from the metafictional twist above, it explained a lot.
We'll probably get an answer to that question by the end of the chapter (most likely when Annie meets Jones again to discuss what happened). The best I can assume for now is that the point might have been that Annie did little - that she's learning to be more subtle and not to take the obvious "action hero route" that Zimmy (during the time that she thought she was Annie) was taking.
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Post by Yin on Jun 23, 2010 11:13:31 GMT
Nice to see that the rain boils the Zimmingham buildings away too.
(if we keep on being sore losers and winners I won't give cookies out next week after all)
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Post by Per on Jun 23, 2010 11:22:11 GMT
Same here and I suspect that there can't be a complete explanation to tie up all the loose ends. It's becoming more of a comic and less of a novel. I expected the last of those sentences would say the exact opposite. The presence of absence of complete explanations isn't what sets comics and novels apart. And I don't think anyone is going to think of Jack as a hero. Only a parkour hero.
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 23, 2010 11:46:30 GMT
I think that the biggest question isn't "When did the switch take place?" or "Why in-universe did the switch take place?", but "Why did the story take that direction?" When Jones sent Annie in, it was being set up as a major test for Annie as part of her medium training. Then the story follows a Zimmy who thinks that she's Annie instead, Annie (disguised as Zimmy) stays in the background, letting Zimmy confront Jack rather than trying to stop him herself, etc. That was why I had a hard time accepting the "Annie is really Zimmy" explanation, though apart from the metafictional twist above, it explained a lot. We'll probably get an answer to that question by the end of the chapter (most likely when Annie meets Jones again to discuss what happened). The best I can assume for now is that the point might have been that Annie did little - that she's learning to be more subtle and not to take the obvious "action hero route" that Zimmy (during the time that she thought she was Annie) was taking. This story has been about Jack and Zimmy/Gamma from the very beginning. The only reason Annie is there at all is Jack invited her - and it seems very likely the only reason he invited her was actually for Reynardine to be used as a decoy. All she pretty much does in the first chapter is help push the boat and open a door. The rest of it is Jack talking. Annie is present, but throughout this storyline she has been little more than a spectator. Where do you get that impression from?"I am interested in seeing what you do next"
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Post by kafine on Jun 23, 2010 11:49:24 GMT
I still don't feel misdirected or confused by the Zimmy/Annie thing. We were told Annie was Zimmy, and Jack wasn't Jack. And that's how it panned out. But I love this picture of Zimmy
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Post by todd on Jun 23, 2010 12:03:50 GMT
Where do you get that impression from?"I am interested in seeing what you do next" Yes. That certainly made it sound like a test.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 23, 2010 12:05:51 GMT
Apologies for my pissiness before, I let real-life issues affect my mood negatively and it showed especially in this thread (and probably other ones too).
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Post by La Goon on Jun 23, 2010 12:10:27 GMT
I guess whether you feel misdirected to some degree depends on how you reed comics (whether you generally put more faith in the dialogue or the drawn scenery). In this case the dialogue tended to direct us to the right conclusion, and the drawn scenery was generally misdirecting.
I personally had the feeling through most of this sequence that who appeared as Annie wasn't quite Annie. I couldn't really decide whether to believe she was actually Zimmy or some kind of temporary construct.
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 23, 2010 12:19:02 GMT
I guess whether you feel misdirected to some degree depends on how you reed comics (whether you generally put more faith in the dialogue or the drawn scenery). In this case the dialogue tended to direct us to the right conclusion, and the drawn scenery was generally misdirecting. I don't think that really holds up. Annie didn't have the cut on her cheek, for one thing.
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Post by badgerigar on Jun 23, 2010 13:02:23 GMT
Gamma looks really bad. Is this just a reaction to seeing Zimmy angry like that? Did Gamma make the rain and overreach herself to get Zimmy back to normal as fast as possible?
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Jun 23, 2010 13:02:41 GMT
I guess whether you feel misdirected to some degree depends on how you read comics (whether you generally put more faith in the dialogue or the drawn scenery). In this case the dialogue tended to direct us to the right conclusion, and the drawn scenery was generally misdirecting. I don't think that really holds up. Annie didn't have the cut on her cheek, for one thing. La Goon's point still holds. (Edit: incorrect attribution at first) It's profoundly unrewarding to argue why one's incorrect interpretation could have been right, since it turns out to be wrong, and there are plenty of people to point that out. I was one of the ones who thought Annie was Annie, but why even talk about why at this point. In the end, the adage about hindsight being 20-20 holds. Anyway, the "called it" cookies are going to turn bitter and crumble to dust at the rate we're going here. Whichever way it turned out, it would still be interesting, and we should get on with enjoying the ride.
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Post by sabian on Jun 23, 2010 13:13:24 GMT
(Long time reader -- First time forumer)
Alright. So, on Page 729, the panels are all crooked. Then they become straight once more.
Any speculations?
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Post by Per on Jun 23, 2010 13:29:16 GMT
I don't think it's necessary to twist comments of "We did see it coming" into requests for special recognition. The switch was far from arbitrary; if it had been, then it obviously wouldn't have been "masterful misdirection" anyway.
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 23, 2010 13:40:49 GMT
It's profoundly unrewarding to argue why one's incorrect interpretation could have been right, since it turns out to be wrong, and there are plenty of people to point that out. I was one of the ones who thought Annie was Annie, but why even talk about why at this point. In the end, the adage about hindsight being 20-20 holds. Anyway, the "called it" cookies are going to turn bitter and crumble to dust at the rate we're going here. Whichever way it turned out, it would still be interesting, and we should get on with enjoying the ride. Yeah, I'm being a bit of a jerk. I am interested in how people managed to read it so differently, when to me it seemed pretty obvious, but I think it's mixed up with a big load of "I told you so" smugness, so I should probably step away from this for a while.
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 23, 2010 13:42:24 GMT
Here comes the rain again... It's been a while since we last saw happy Zimmy, so this is nice. Especially after this last "Waaagh!", yes. Wow, a straight-up answer to who was who and who wasn't real? Now that's a surprise. Now if only we knew how the pink-haired girl on page 730 knew that Jack was looking for Zimmy. Maybe Zimmy didn't merely thought she's Annie, they really got "mixed" a bit? 2) I bet Tea-San would be a master at Three-Card Monty, the way he masterfully misdirected us and swapped characters around. Ha, could get used to it. That's one of sides that make Gunnerkriggg so charming, no? ;D 3) I want to hear Annie's explanation to Kat of what happened. I'll bet what she thought happened differs greatly than what the viewer saw. Yes, but then again - i guess she probably would minimize mind-screw parts and tell mostly results, and Kat wouldn't ask for more details, so... But I'm having a hard time swallowing that 'Zimmy' has been Annie this whole time. She's been uncharacteristically passive. All three didn't quite act quite as themselves. The question is, why? Jack was a bad influence or Gamma was trying to sort out self-identifications? I've found the discussion around the last few updates really odd. I haven't commented much, because a lot of the discussion has been around trying to come up with increasng convoluted theories [...] I also had some weird idea that maybe there was some forum in-joke, where everyone just tried to come up with more and more ridicuolus explanations for what was going on, and giving the obvious explanation would mark me out as a newb. Yes and no. See, Gunnerkrigg is a many-layered mystery, thus we make up our own theories - whether to make heads or tails of this all, or just for sport. Lots of these. That's just how the intellect works: it's main function (applied to the real world) is making up a coherent model of the situation. Internet only turned wild-guessing into mass sport. But there was so much of wild guessing, and probably we all missed more than enough, so it's hard to take this all quite seriously anymore and self-parodies became inevitable. Thus it's also an in-joke. By the way, the classic one involved a time-traveling opposite sex clone. Tom proposed it himself. ;D And by now it's not the wildest one. A matter of taste, but for me (an instrumentalist, after all) the wild guessing is fun - both ways.
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Post by Casey on Jun 23, 2010 13:45:37 GMT
Welcome, all, to the reason why I think virtual "cookies" for guessing crap right is such a terrible, terrible idea. Trying to domineer something, or be competitive in a non-competitive activity (like, say, reading an internet comic) sucks all the joy out of it. Just leave off already.
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Post by zylonbane on Jun 23, 2010 13:55:21 GMT
Aha! See, I knew the stutter in the lines "No, Gamma, it's me, A– Annie" and "Don't you get tired of looking after m– Looking after Zimmy all the time?" was significant.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 23, 2010 13:56:44 GMT
People being right about guesses they made in advance isn't an example of hindsight. So the adage holds but it's irrelevant to this thread.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 23, 2010 14:01:31 GMT
I don't want cookies. This thread helped set off my already foul (for irrelevant reasons) mood, just because its first post called me and others "wackos".
No need for cookies, just no insults please.
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Post by paxjax123 on Jun 23, 2010 14:55:40 GMT
Ohmigosh! Zimmy looks so pretty! I'm glad this is all cleared up. ;D So, I think in the next page Jack gets mad and starts to attack Annie and Zimmy and Gamma. OR the spider gets killed by the rain.
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Post by shouqi on Jun 23, 2010 15:00:11 GMT
Folks should calm down, it's only a comic.
I think Tom did a good job keeping the mystery intact and showing us a day in Zimmy and Gamma's life.
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Post by legion on Jun 23, 2010 15:11:39 GMT
Well I'll be…
I'm going to eat my hats now.
ALL SEVEN OF THEM
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 23, 2010 15:13:09 GMT
Speculation time again: I wonder if the reason that the rain acted differently this time (helping Zimmy instead of hurting her) is because it was only this power station that got activated, not the whole series of power stations that Annie learned about in the previous part of the chapter.
So perhaps it extracted the etheric energy initially, but without it being received by any other power station, it soon had to be released back into the rain.
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Post by aaroncampbell on Jun 23, 2010 15:15:55 GMT
Folks should calm down, it's only a comic. I think Tom did a good job keeping the mystery intact and showing us a day in Zimmy and Gamma's life. Yes, I agree. There's too much grumpiness on the boards today. I don't like it, it makes me sad. Theories aside (just for once,) can we just be happy that the crazy environment is gone, the buzzing is over, and Zimmy is happy? Hopefully Gamma and Jack will be okay. Maybe Tea-san will give us answers to some of our questions in the future, and I really do hope the next chapter is a little less stressful!
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 23, 2010 15:34:47 GMT
Ohmigosh! Zimmy looks so pretty! I'm glad this is all cleared up. ;D So, I think in the next page Jack gets mad and starts to attack Annie and Zimmy and Gamma. OR the spider gets killed by the rain. I think either Zimmy will go over and squish the spider, now the rain has put her in contol. Or Jack will jump off, to threaten our brave heros and heroines another day. And then Jones will shut down the simulator and give Annie a B-.
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Post by spacemilk on Jun 23, 2010 15:34:55 GMT
So did Jack accomplish his goal? Can he still accomplish it? It looks like the 8th memory-Jack was gopped, but by whom? Hopefully spider-Jack didn't absorb it though it certainly looks as if he did. But then Zimmy wouldn't be smiling, right? Or would she?
What if Zimmy wanted spider-Jack to find the last memory-Jack so the spider would leave Zimmingham? I mean, I don't doubt that the Court wouldn't want a powerful malevolent force like the spider running about, but why would Zimmy care as long as the spider otherwise left her alone?
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