Alex
Full Member
Posts: 165
|
Post by Alex on Jun 4, 2010 20:28:31 GMT
The counter to "anything could be a simulation" is that we got the panel of whiteness before we entered fake-Zimmingham just as we did before we entered the simulation. So there's still a reliable indicator as to whether holodeck shenanigans are going on.
|
|
|
Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 20:34:59 GMT
How convoluted would an explanation have to be in order to explain how Zimmy is suddenly the protagonist of the story, right in mid-page-swap, and yet she has Annie's looks, Annie's memories, Annie's speech patterns, Annie's motivations, and Annie's knowledge of Jack's plan? Zimmy thinks she's Annie. She's speaking with her notion of Annie's speech patterns, acting with her notion of Annie's motivations. She's having what she thinks are Annie's experiences. One way or another, she's figured out that Jack wants to find her, but she doesn't seem to even know his name. That's a pretty straightforward hallucination—not oh god oh god the spiders straightfoward, but fairly clear nevertheless. But because Zimmy's hallucinations tend to seep into reality, it's not unlikely that Annie also perceives that as herself, that those are her speech patterns, her motivations, her experiences (maybe even informing those things). This would mean that in her role as a reliable narrator, she's conveying her experiences as clearly as possible. It could also just be a bit of tricksy narrative play, but it needn't be so.
|
|
|
Post by mojojojo on Jun 4, 2010 20:40:10 GMT
Or not a real Annie. And we've never seen a loading screen before. Of course we have: pages 580 and 581 are completely dedicated to it. Tbh, the whole simulation idea makes so little sense to me I can't really think about it. TBH, if you didn't remember seeing the hologram loading screen before, then I can understand why this obvious possibility wouldn't make sense to you. [/quote] Oh dear, I forgot 2 scenes. Actually I'm sorry about the "tbh", I guess that's a bit annoying (and in breach of rules! sorry). Zimmy is not becoming the protagonist. We're being mislead in what the protagonist is doing - big difference. The camera is in no way stuck to Annie's shoulder, as has been seen in many other episodes. It's a well used technique to mislead the audience a bit. See "Unreliable Narrator" on tvtropes. And Annie doesn't have Antimony's memories (she doesn't know Jack's name, it's very odd she doesn't mention it, even if she Gamma won't know it), she doesn't have her speech patterns (she's speaking to Gamma in English, which she has never done before, I think), she doesn't have Annie's motivations (Annie has never said she wants to stop Jack finding Zimmy), and all she knows about Jack's plan is he is trying to find Zimmy. After however long Jack has been looking, it seems likely Zimmy knows Jack is looking for her. Against this you have Gamma's statements which are completely impossible to explain if "Annie" is not actually Zimmy.
|
|
|
Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 20:40:33 GMT
Gamma does not like to be touched, does she? I think she's just startled by ZimAnnie's sense of urgency. She's holding her a couple of panels down. (You know, if she does turn out to be a simulation, I'll be sad. These moments seem really sweet and genuine. “I miss you when you are like this. I hope you remember yourself soon.” aww! * melts *)
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 20:40:54 GMT
How convoluted would an explanation have to be in order to explain how Zimmy is suddenly the protagonist of the story, right in mid-page-swap, and yet she has Annie's looks, Annie's memories, Annie's speech patterns, Annie's motivations, and Annie's knowledge of Jack's plan? Zimmy thinks she's Annie. She's speaking with her notion of Annie's speech patterns, acting with her notion of Annie's motivations. She's having what she thinks are Annie's experiences. One way or another, she's figured out that Jack wants to find her, but she doesn't seem to even know his name. Wait... what? That made no sense to me. This also makes no sense to me. How can you still be talking about Annie as reliable narrator, at the same time that you're proposing that Zimmy is the narrator all of a sudden?
|
|
|
Post by the bandit on Jun 4, 2010 20:42:49 GMT
I don't have enough palms to face this discussion.
|
|
|
Post by alexscott on Jun 4, 2010 20:48:37 GMT
Gamma does not like to be touched, does she? I think she's just startled by ZimAnnie's sense of urgency. She's holding her a couple of panels down. Let me adjust that: she's not used to being touched by Non-Zimmy-looking people. Personally, I think that both Annie and Gamma are the real deal, and that Gamma's just thrown off because she's not used to communicating telepathically with anybody other than Zimmy. And I think that's because Annie's developed her etheric abilities much further since the Power Station chapter.
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on Jun 4, 2010 20:51:00 GMT
Here's a picture of the Floozy in the Jacuzzi in sunny Birmingham -- www.zyra.me.uk/floozy.htmMaybe the iron leaning is the railing around it?
|
|
|
Post by the bandit on Jun 4, 2010 20:52:04 GMT
Personally, I think that both Annie and Gamma are the real deal, and that Gamma's just thrown off because she's not used to communicating telepathically with anybody other than Zimmy. And I think that's because Annie's developed her etheric abilities much further since the Power Station chapter. This is the most straight-forward explanation of the current communication paradox.
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 20:53:21 GMT
|
|
|
Post by legion on Jun 4, 2010 20:57:29 GMT
I don't have enough palms to face this discussion. Can I help you?
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 20:58:48 GMT
Here's a picture of the Floozy in the Jacuzzi in sunny Birmingham -- www.zyra.me.uk/floozy.htmMaybe the iron leaning is the railing around it? It turns out you appear to be absolutely right, those were not gibberish words at all. I just lacked the regional knowledge to get the reference. Thanks Charlotte. It turns out that the "iron leaning" is a real Birmingham landmark as well. So that explains that, at least.
|
|
|
Post by the bandit on Jun 4, 2010 20:59:19 GMT
I don't have enough palms to face this discussion. Can I help you? [Vishnu pic] Ha ha, that might be enough.
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 21:02:11 GMT
Personally, I think that both Annie and Gamma are the real deal, and that Gamma's just thrown off because she's not used to communicating telepathically with anybody other than Zimmy. And I think that's because Annie's developed her etheric abilities much further since the Power Station chapter. That is a reasonable explanation except for it leaves unanswered the question of how Gamma is able to understand Annie's English. Not to mention the question of why Gamma would think that Zimmy "forgot" who she was, yet clearly looks, sounds, and acts just like Annie. Unless we were to be forced to imagine that Zimmy routinely perfectly mimics another person that she doesn't even know that well, on these hypothetical earlier occasions when she's "forgotten who she was".
|
|
|
Post by hal9000 on Jun 4, 2010 21:11:24 GMT
So assuming this is all a hallucination/bog-standard trip to birminghell, is Annie just standing in the roof-access doorway in reality?
If so, that would mean she'd been in plain view of Jones and Rey, who would also necessarily have at least a limited view of the roof and who or whatever was on it.
Also, assuming that the door wasn't blocking the field (or whatever you want to call the effect Zimmy generates), one could make a decent approximation of the probable maximum and minimum area of effect based on the size of the roof and Zimmy's location on it (also assuming that the field is roughly cylindrical or spherical).
|
|
|
Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 21:18:42 GMT
Wait... what? That made no sense to me. I think we've discovered the impasse, because it makes perfect sense to me (obviously :-p). Zimmy lost track of her identity, and wound up picking up Annie's. That sort of thing can happen if you're on hallucinogens, or if your mind is atypical (“in the mind of a person,” right?). The kink is that she doesn't actually know everything Annie knows, so she can't talk to Gamma in Polish (since she doesn't know Polish), and she can't tell Gamma Jack's name (since she doesn't know it). In this scenario, Annie and Zimmy are having the same experience. The reason this is possible is because Zimmy's hallucinations have a tendency to make themselves real (or real er). Usually, that means terrifying creatures climbing out of the walls and entropy seeping over the world, but this isn't that sort of hallucination. This is an internal sort of hallucination, which Annie could find herself caught up in. By analogy, suppose Annie took acid and thought she was a bobcat. As a reliable narrator, it would be reasonable for her to convey that situation by drawing herself as a bobcat, trying to do bobcat things. In this instance, she didn't take acid, she took “being in the same room as Zimmy,” which can have much the same effect. This is the most straight-forward explanation of the current communication paradox. It just feels a bit off that Gamma wouldn't recognize someone as not being Zimmy. And why would Annie not speak to her in Polish? Here's a picture of the Floozy in the Jacuzzi in sunny Birmingham -- www.zyra.me.uk/floozy.htmMaybe the iron leaning is the railing around it? Ooh! Ooh! No! The iron leaning is the statue Iron: Man, which leans. They're in Victoria Square.
|
|
|
Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 21:21:35 GMT
I felt so proud to have figured that out Damn yooooou!
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 21:22:32 GMT
You figured it out independently, like Marconi to my Tesla. I detract nothing from your accomplishment, dear lady.
|
|
|
Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 21:39:41 GMT
You figured it out independently, like Marconi to my Tesla. I detract nothing from your accomplishment, dear lady. Yeah, yeah. You get all the chicks and steampunk street cred. All I get is this lousy patent for some “radio” bullshit. Still want to say that Annie doesn't know anything more about Jack's plan? I think the evil monkey was saying that maybe!Annie hasn't demonstrated as much knowledge of Jack's plan as known!real!Annie clearly had. But if maybe!Gamma isn't Gamma, how is she communicating telepathically? If it's because she's a holomask for Jack, what on earth is Jack doing (and when did he learn to communicate telepathically)? Why not ask Annie for help finding Zimmy? (And then there are the bits where she's acting really sweet and genuine and it would be really very odd if she were a hologram. And it would make me sad.)
|
|
Tojo
New Member
Posts: 45
|
Post by Tojo on Jun 4, 2010 21:48:27 GMT
Remember when Gamma tried to GOP someone in real life because she didn't realize they were real? Same type of thing happening here I think. Also, since this is Zimmy's mind, if she is messed up and starts to think she's someone else, that's how she would appear in her mind because her mind thinks she's Antimony.
On a side note, Jones is awesome. So is Gamma. And Jack. I like Jack (as a character) because while some people say he's a evil guy trying to destroy everything, he really has just been seriously @#$%ed up by Zimmyland and who could blame him? If I had a traumatic event like this happen to me, I totally think I would do whatever it takes to hunt down whose responsible. Speaking of things that are amazing, this webcomic.
|
|
|
Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 4, 2010 21:55:09 GMT
You mean like the fact that the comic has been told from Annie's point of view, and suddenly being told from Zimmy's point of view would be metafictionally jarring, Annie's point of view?Also, regarding Gamma's fallibility in Zim City: Recall that in "Power Station", she was pretty sure that no one else got pulled in--which was proven to be wrong almost immediately afterwards.
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 22:00:50 GMT
Come on Mezz, I'm perfectly aware that there are pages that are flashbacks, or that momentarily show another character's point of view. The STORY is being told from Annie's point of view though, and that's what I said. I could have interjected (and indeed, considered it) "mostly" into my sentence, to accomodate for those moments, but that would have clouded the issue, as those moments are completely a different creature from Zimmy suddenly and without preamble becoming the narrator in mid-action, while still looking like, talking like, thinking like, and acting like Annie.
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 22:03:21 GMT
Also, since this is Zimmy's mind, if she is messed up and starts to think she's someone else, that's how she would appear in her mind because her mind thinks she's Antimony. I have to admit that makes sense and would explain why Zimmy looks like Annie. But what still wouldn't make sense is why, or how, we suddenly went from seeing the rooftop from Annie's POV, to seeing Zimmingham from Zimmy's POV, with the added confusion of Zimmy not only looking like Annie (which you justified) but also knowing what Annie knows.
|
|
|
Post by todd on Jun 4, 2010 22:10:40 GMT
I think that the biggest question is still - if we're suddenly dealing, not with Annie but with Zimmie halucinating that she's Annie, why did Tom put such a potentially jarring twist in the story? Why has he (presumably temporarily) abandoned his protagonist for one of the supporting characters? What purpose does it serve?
Since I'm having difficulties figuring out what the point of that twist would be, I find it easier to believe that there's another explanation for this turn of events. (I'm staying out of the holodeck argument as too complicated for me to follow - my concern is with the metafictional angle.)
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 22:11:30 GMT
I think that the biggest question is still - if we're suddenly dealing, not with Annie but with Zimmie halucinating that she's Annie, why did Tom put such a potentially jarring twist in the story? What purpose would it serve? Since I'm having difficulties figuring out what the point of that twist would be, I find it easier to believe that there's another explanation for this turn of events. Well said. And totally not just because I agree with you!
|
|
|
Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 22:22:35 GMT
I think that the biggest question is still - if we're suddenly dealing, not with Annie but with Zimmie halucinating that she's Annie, why did Tom put such a potentially jarring twist in the story? It serves to illuminate how Zimmy experiences the world. How she feels, how she holds onto herself. It serves to give us a better understanding of what Gamma and Zimmy's relationship actually looks like, when they're alone. And if my suspicion that Annie is experiencing this is true, it gives Annie this understanding—an understanding of this person's mind and life—something nobody except Gamma or Zimmy has really had, up till now. It's an answer to the question, “is Zimmy human?” And it's a jarring thing because that's what Zimmy's world is.
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 22:24:47 GMT
Well, it's going to be a long weekend, waiting for Monday. Or Wednesday, or whenever we finally find what the hell is actually going on...
|
|
|
Post by mojojojo on Jun 4, 2010 22:47:20 GMT
she doesn't have Annie's motivations (Annie has never said she wants to stop Jack finding Zimmy) Page 724, frame 7... Doesn't really justify the urgency she's suddenly showing though does it. But to be honest this is chasing a matter of opinion - I feel Annie's current sense of urgency is out of character, but I realise that is just my reading ofit. Also, you were claiming Zimmy had suddenly gained Annie's motivations. But I think all the explanations assume Zimmy doesn't want to meet Jack. Building a holodeck makes even less sense if Zimmy i happy to talk. Jack implies Zimmy is avoiding him in 712/713 (This is my fault for not being clear between "Annie" and "Fake Annie/Zimmy", but I thought it was clear - violet has already picked this up). Annie knows yes, but not Fake Annie/Zimmy. All Fake Annie knows is that a kid with gray hair and a green jacket is looking for Zimmy. So by showing that real Annie knows a lot more you are proving my point a bit more. Why doesn't she say anything more. (like Jack being responsible for setting off the power station, or how dangerous and erratic he is, or his name) Not entirely baseless, Jack has strongly implied Zimmy is avoiding him. [/quote] You've said it. But it's an incorrect statement, since it explains nothing. There is nothing Gamma can be that would make what she says makes sense. Unless she is "plot device with no purpose bit to mislead the readers". It's a ridiculous statement - unless Zimmy does actually forget who she is sometimes. I mean, a fake Gamma accidentally knowing English makes some sense. A fake Gamma accidentally believing Annie is actually Zimmy believing she is Annie, really doesn't. Or... I don't know, please explain why a "fake Zimmy" would say "Oh, did you forget who you are again, Zimmy" ? I mean, how would that even work? Annie is actually really Annie. So Fake Gamma looks at really Annie, but thinks "Zimmy", even though she looks nothing like Zimmy, and actually looks like Annie. Then she is mildly surprised when it turns out that Zimmy (who looks like Annie), says she that she isn't Zimmy, but is actually Annie. Fake Gamma thinks "What a surprising coincidence, Zimmy not only looks Annie, she thinks she is Annie too!". Gah, it's really late here, I should go to bed. I've enjoyed this but I'm going to try and stay away from this conversation for a few issues at least because I think speculation has gone as far it can (we're all following our own ideas of how stories work, really. I find your explanations really counter-intuitive, but it seems at least some people think the same way, so I'm trying to keep an open mind). Admittedly, if it turns out that I can't return to the conversation with a cheery "I told you so", I might not come back at all, but hey ho.
|
|
|
Post by Afalstein on Jun 4, 2010 22:48:40 GMT
Okay, so we can now be fairly certain that the missing scar is NOT just a fluke. That would indicate, then, that Annie is NOT in the etherium here.
Then where the heck is she? This clearly isn't "just the roof," as she's walked too far already. It looks like Zimmingham, but as we're not in the etherium, that's not possible. It COULD be a simulation chamber, but why would Jack set one up, what would he use for it, and HOW would no one have noticed it earlier?
Don't those simulation rooms need special suits for the touch-feel part of it? Okay, so they didn't use them for the view of the Court's founding, but they weren't "touching" anything, just looking. So how is Gamma holding Annie's hand?
And why would Jack set one up? To trap Zimmy or to figure out her secrets? Then what is he doing with Annie?
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 22:58:02 GMT
Afalstein, I could answer both yours and mojojojo's questions, but to do so I would have to repeat myself, for I've already answered those questions in this thread. And people have said that it's annoying when people repeat themselves... despite the occasional need to do so because someone has overlooked or misunderstood something that someone already said earlier.
So the best I can say at this point is, we really ought to just all wait it out at this point and see what happens. I have to admit I find it a little frustrating when I've addressed certain questions, and then those questions continue to pop up like someone read the thread and didn't read my posts, and then I'm in the position of either having to repeat myself, or let the question go "unanswered" even though I already did. And I really don't want to become frustrated by this thread, so, for me, the best I can do is to just redirect you to the beginning of the thread again and hope for the best.
|
|