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Post by Casey on Jun 5, 2010 22:53:30 GMT
when Zimmy gets sucked into Zimmingham, finding and touching Gamma is how she gets out, isn't it? Annie is clearly holding hands with Gamma here. Even if touching Annie-in-Zimmy's-body isn't the same as touching whatever is housing Zimmy's consciousness, at the very least Gamma should be surprised that it isn't working You've made a great point that looks like it's been overlooked so far. I'll extend it to also point out: Where is this maybe!Gamma intending on taking "Zimmy" when she says "Shall we go?" The real Gamma would know that all she had to do to end the episode is to touch or hug Zimmy. She wouldn't be asking her to go somewhere. She would also, as you mentioned, be very surprised that they were still in Zimmingham after touching her hand.
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Post by legion on Jun 5, 2010 23:55:52 GMT
Your mundane explanation has more holes than Swiss cheese. Your face has more holes than Swiss cheese. No yours.
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Post by eightyfour on Jun 5, 2010 23:59:47 GMT
Wow, this thread is running rampant! Haven't been following it since the beginning, forgive me for jumping back in here... The real Gamma would know that all she had to do to end the episode is to touch or hug Zimmy. She wouldn't be asking her to go somewhere. She would also, as you mentioned, be very surprised that they were still in Zimmingham after touching her hand. We have seen Gamma ending Zimmingham by hugging Zimmy once. I agree that is a pretty strong indication, and we haven't seen any evidence that would say otherwise, but still... I could speculate that I find it more likely that the desired effect doesn't come from physical contact, but rather from putting Zimmy's mind at ease, making her feel comfortable. This is of course achieved by hugging her most favourite person, but for this to work Zimmy would first have to realize who she actually is. But who knows, with a messed up brain like hers? My point being (I also mentioned this earlier), we should be very careful with applying clear, logical rules to Zimmingham, especially with how little evidence we have.
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Post by Casey on Jun 6, 2010 0:45:50 GMT
In the flashbacks of Dobranoc Gamma, we see Zimmy's head-static shrinking just from Gamma approaching her. We also see her manifestations disappear just from Gamma touching her. Therefore I think it's reasonable to wonder why Zimmingham didn't end the moment they touched, if that really is Gamma and that really is Zimmy, and further, to wonder why Gamma would want them to "go" somewhere else, when being in a specific spot didn't matter before (the toy store was just a landmark/meeting place, not an "exit").
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Post by spacemilk on Jun 6, 2010 1:56:15 GMT
So, in the vein of it being a sim: Jones hung back and let Annie go on the roof by herself. She also wouldn't let Renard go with her. This makes me think Jones knew what was coming; so, if it's a sim, I'm actually starting to lean towards either (1) the Court knew Jack hacked the sim and they therefore knew what was coming, or (2) the whole thing is a Court-made sim intended to help Jack or Zimmy or both.
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Post by alexscott on Jun 6, 2010 2:34:59 GMT
My take on Jones is that she's treating this as (a) an emergency mediating lesson for Annie, since this will involve coming between two massively ether-tainted individuals, and (b) a subtle punishment for sneaking out.
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Post by warrl on Jun 6, 2010 3:52:28 GMT
And Annie doesn't have Antimony's memories (she doesn't know Jack's name, it's very odd she doesn't mention it, even if she Gamma won't know it), I don't think it's particularly odd. It would convey no information. It's customary, when someone speaks to you in a language you're fluent in, to respond in the same language. Gamma spoke - telepathically, I grant - in English, or at least Annie perceived it in English. She didn't know (or think) Zimmy was that close. She wants to help Jack, and also she wants to protect Zimmy. Jack finding Zimmy first would complicate both those goals. Plausible, not definite, can't rate likelihood. Very easy to explain if "Gamma" is not actually Gamma. In that direction my first guess would be it's something the spider is doing to both Annie and Jack. However there are a number of other equally (or more) plausible possibilities. Or, alternatively, Gamma and Annie are both real, and the spider is messing with both their minds to keep them away from Jack. What the spider's plans for Zimmy would be in this scenario, I don't know.
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 6, 2010 9:34:06 GMT
...and thus the competition for the prize "Understatement of the Month" reached its final phase! Far ahead of the rest are two runners: You're making assumptions about what's going to happen though. The scene may not unfold the way you are expecting. I don't know whats going on, but something is definitely up. So close! Who will win? That doesn't explain why Annie suddenly hears Gamma's telepathy and why Gamma suddenly understands Annie's English, which even in Zim city wasn't apparently happening (cf: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=469 ). Nor the absence of scar on Annie. The simplest version is that everyone is mindlinked just because they are in ZimCity - if it's a shared mindscape, they are already linked, talking is just one more service. Annie doesn't have the cut either because she was imagined by someone who didn't saw her with it (only Jack, maybe), or it's simply healed by this time. Ninja-edit: I'm beginning to suspect Tom premeditated all this specifically to drive us all crazy. Oh, no! Since when Tom does such things?! ;D I was just thinking that it would be interesting to see who turns out right and who turns out wrong. I will create a Gunnard thread. If Tom dislikes it or it creates drama, I will shut it down. You see, it was just a bit superfluous - we already have cookies. Well, some of us have. I am going to do this quickly but: Remember when Renard, Annie, and Jack were in the boat, and Renard said to Jack: "It must have been difficult to see the world through that demon-girl's eyes." The implication being, when you get stuck in Birmingham you are seeing the world through Zimmy's eyes. I think everyone knows this, I'm just restating it because it leads to my next point: But Jack obviously didn't got stuck in Zimmingham. Zimmingham got stuck in Jack.
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Post by legion on Jun 6, 2010 12:16:40 GMT
It's customary, when someone speaks to you in a language you're fluent in, to respond in the same language. No, not really. There are bilingual situations where, to put everyone on the same ground, each speaks the other's language (eg: a Russian is talking to a Finn; the Finn talks in Russian and the Russian talks in Finnish).
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Post by Casey on Jun 6, 2010 15:46:49 GMT
we already have cookies. Well, some of us have. Ugh, no... my Gunnerkrigg Cookies thread was made for fun and was never meant to be associated with the idea of "earning a cookie" for guessing something right, which was a Gunnermeme that came much later. So far people have kept the two ideas separate... let's not do anything to pollute the waters please.
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Post by Ulysses on Jun 6, 2010 19:09:25 GMT
Annie not using Jack's name is fairly easily explained. If Zimmy and Gamma don't know who Jack is then saying "Jack is looking for Zimmy" will have no meaning to them, and Annie knows that. Also if she said "A boy called Jack is looking for Zimmy", his name has no relevance to the situation and therefore I don't think Annie would bother using it. Not using Jack's name is not a good reason to think Annie is not Annie.
I think the telepathy between Annie and Gamma is a much better reason to think that. What needs to be explained is how Gamma is communicating telepathically with Annie and how Gamma can now understand English. If Annie is in fact Zimmy then the telepathy is explained and she could just be thinking she is speaking English out loud when she is actually speaking telepathically. If Gamma is in fact Zimmy then understanding English is explained, and she could just be thinking she is communicating telepathically.
I don't know which of them is Zimmy, but I'm almost certain that at least one of them is. There are too much irregularities otherwise.
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 6, 2010 21:12:47 GMT
Annie not using Jack's name is fairly easily explained. If Zimmy and Gamma don't know who Jack is then saying "Jack is looking for Zimmy" will have no meaning to them, and Annie knows that. I should just let this lie... but you're saying Annie was considerate enough to think "Gamma doesn't know who Jack is, so I won't waste time mentioning his name", but at the same time forgot Gamma doesn't actually understand English? I'd think she would say "Jack is looking for Zimmy. He's a boy with gray hair and a green coat". It's not as if Annie knows Gamma doesn't know who Jack is.
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Post by Casey on Jun 6, 2010 23:06:14 GMT
There've been times I've been out shopping with my girlfriend and we're in different parts of the store and I'll be looking for her, and a store attendee will say "Can I help you find something?" and I'll jokingly reply "Yeah, I'm looking for my girlfriend."
Never would I say "I'm looking for Stacie." Does that mean that I suddenly don't know my girlfriend's name?
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Post by warrl on Jun 7, 2010 7:16:06 GMT
I should just let this lie... but you're saying Annie was considerate enough to think "Gamma doesn't know who Jack is, so I won't waste time mentioning his name", but at the same time forgot Gamma doesn't actually understand English? I can easily understand how you might forget that the person who is speaking to you in English doesn't speak English. Either that, or remember it and consider it a minor detail to be addressed later.
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Post by violet on Jun 7, 2010 16:13:58 GMT
I'm in this camp, myself. Has anybody considered that "Gamma" might be Zimmy in the midst of a fugue state? Oh! Good possibility-catch. The real Gamma would know that all she had to do to end the episode is to touch or hug Zimmy. She wouldn't be asking her to go somewhere. She would also, as you mentioned, be very surprised that they were still in Zimmingham after touching her hand. Does Zimmingham always work like that, necessarily? Maybe you have to finish out the story. (Meta, I know, but PTSD works like that, too.) Never would I say "I'm looking for Stacie." Does that mean that I suddenly don't know my girlfriend's name? I'm not really sure how the implicatures unpack, but it just sounds a bit off in the comic. I think the fact that Jack is a mutual acquaintance (for even loose definitions of “acquaintance”) make it feel like an odd disclusion.
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Post by aaroncampbell on Jun 7, 2010 17:24:50 GMT
So, in the vein of it being a sim: Jones hung back and let Annie go on the roof by herself. She also wouldn't let Renard go with her. This makes me think Jones knew what was coming; so, if it's a sim, I'm actually starting to lean towards either (1) the Court knew Jack hacked the sim and they therefore knew what was coming, or (2) the whole thing is a Court-made sim intended to help Jack or Zimmy or both. If it is a Court-made sim (and I like the idea,) then everyone is really getting twisted around: Jack would show up expecting to confront Zimmy, and would end up thinking he got sucked back to Zimmingham. Disorientation and maybe wrecked plans for him/the spider, especially if things aren't etherically what is expected. Zimmy and Gamma would show up due to the power station activity, and find a weird facsimile of Zimmingham. Not the typical transportation, which would be unusual for them, and Zimmy at least would probably know etherically that it was not the real place. Annie didn't seem to notice the transition difference, but she's got alot on her mind. I'm not jumping on the who's who part of the discussion for this comment; just the where's where. Supporting the sim theory: there haven't been any nonpeople or spiders or anything so far. Since nobody from the Court has been transported to Zimmingham, the only thing they have to go off of for their simulation is the real place, hence the emptiness. We'll have another big supporting clue if we see the toystore sans toys. The only complication is the lack of the haptic suit. Holograms can change appearances, including those of people (such as the different hairstyles.) So either the buildings are really there, or could be walked through, or the etheric abilities of the individuals present in the sim are such that they may make physicalities where there are none? (pure speculation, that.) It would be disturbing for a sim to induce a manifestation of the real Zimmingham...
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Post by spacemilk on Jun 8, 2010 18:50:22 GMT
I am going to do this quickly but: Remember when Renard, Annie, and Jack were in the boat, and Renard said to Jack: "It must have been difficult to see the world through that demon-girl's eyes." The implication being, when you get stuck in Birmingham you are seeing the world through Zimmy's eyes. I think everyone knows this, I'm just restating it because it leads to my next point: But Jack obviously didn't got stuck in Zimmingham. Zimmingham got stuck in Jack. Sigh, this is why I said "I'm doing this quickly...", I knew someone would misunderstand. You mistook my words; I didn't mean permanently stuck. I just meant thrown into Zimmingham. Also we have no idea what's going on with Jack; yes, something is "stuck" in him, but it may have nothing to do with Zimmy directly; she may have been the catalyst, but it could perhaps be something that would have happened on its own eventually. We have no idea.
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