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Post by todd on Jun 4, 2010 12:55:56 GMT
I'm tickled by the notion that the "simplest and most straightforward explanation" apparently involves a complete point-of view shift, a personality swap, a disappearing protagonist, and complete amnesia of a minor character. As convoluted as that might sound to someone who wants to believe a different scenario, I believe that objectively speaking, it's a lot less convoluted and involves a lot fewer violations of storytelling logic than the idea that Annie is actually Zimmy, that the real Annie magically disappeared in a puff of smoke, and that we have an entire protagonist-shift all of a sudden. My thought entirely.
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Post by mail on Jun 4, 2010 13:07:45 GMT
I believe that Annie is Zimmy for three reasons 1. Gamma is actually responding in her telepathic voice boxes and Annie can completely understand what she is saying. 2. She says she is Annie instead of using her full name as she usually does. Zimmy has only used Antimony's first name once while addressing her and even then she got it wrong, and since then she has called her Carver, making it likely Zimmy doesn't really know Annie's first name. 3. There is alot more physical contact between Gamma and Antimony then is in normal character for Annie with anyone but Kat, but is in character for Zimmy and Gamma.
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Post by crysiana on Jun 4, 2010 13:09:36 GMT
At this point, I'm just waiting for this to be resolved so Tom can say, "Congratulations to those who figured this out. In my mind I am picturing a dart board with every available space riddled with darts." again.
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Post by sarapen on Jun 4, 2010 13:13:24 GMT
I just registered to make this prediction: Annie and Gamma will catch up to Jack and they will find that Annie is already with him. Because Annie 1 is actually Zimmy.
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Post by dismalscientist on Jun 4, 2010 13:19:33 GMT
I think the strongest evidence that Annie is Annie and Gamma is not Gamma, is the fact that Annie is speaking out loud, not telepathically, in English, and Gamma understands her. Of course, if that's not Annie but in fact a confused Zimmy, it could esaily be that she is telepathically communicating her meaning without realizing it. "Want to believe?" I don't want to believe anything; I'm just eager to see what happens next and don't think any ideas presented here are "more likely" in some objective sense. Why would Annie have had to disappear in a puff of smoke? Perhaps the storytelling changed to a different location, or perhaps we shifted to Zimmy when she turned the corner in Wednesday's strip.
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Post by dismalscientist on Jun 4, 2010 13:22:50 GMT
I'm also not sure why Jack would have some elaborate holodeck plan that involved misleading Annie; he is, as far as we know, done with her for the moment. I'm not sure what the point would be---wouldn't it be easier just to trap her in a dark box until he's done with Zimmy?
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 13:40:15 GMT
I'm also not sure why Jack would have some elaborate holodeck plan that involved misleading Annie; he is, as far as we know, done with her for the moment. I'm not sure what the point would be---wouldn't it be easier just to trap her in a dark box until he's done with Zimmy? No one said anything about this being for the purpose of misleading Annie. It's for the purpose of trapping Zimmy. There have been a few explanations offered for this. One is that Not-Gamma is an etheric automaton designed to bring Zimmy to a particular place, and it doesn't realize the possibility of anyone other than Zimmy coming through the door (because Jack was convinced that his ether-trap would bring Zimmy out of hiding.) Another explanation is that Jack is so fixated on catching Zimmy that he believes Annie is actually Zimmy who has forgotten, in this etheric place, what she looks like and who she is... again because Jack in his current insane state can't conceive that his plan failed, and that anyone other than Zimmy would come through the door. Any possible explanation you come up with requires some sort of assumption that something isn't as it appears. Either Annie isn't Annie, or Gamma isn't Gamma, or Gamma and Annie are both Gamma and Annie and Gamma is just really, really confused, or it just spirals downward from there. However certain theories require a meta-game twist, instead of just a twist in the story... meaning the storytelling technique itself would have to go through a mighty and sudden twist. And that is jarring and metafictional enough that I just don't think it is as likely as the other, completely in-fiction explanations.
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 13:45:57 GMT
I believe that Annie is Zimmy for three reasons 1. Gamma is actually responding in her telepathic voice boxes and Annie can completely understand what she is saying. That doesn't address how Gamma is able to understand Annie, when she's speaking out loud and in English. I think you just argued yourself into a corner. If Zimmy doesn't know Annie's first name, how could she have just called herself Annie? Also... do you have some evidence that Annie usually calls herself Antimony? Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single time Annie's ever spoken her own name, other than the very first sentence of the comic where she states her full name by way of introduction to the new reader. Which is evidence that Gamma (or whatever she is) believes Annie is Zimmy... NOT evidence that Annie IS Zimmy.
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Post by cheddarius on Jun 4, 2010 13:51:11 GMT
Bravo, Casey.
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Post by bluemotion on Jun 4, 2010 13:58:23 GMT
Also... do you have some evidence that Annie usually calls herself Antimony? Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single time Annie's ever spoken her own name, other than the very first sentence of the comic where she states her full name by way of introduction to the new reader. She introduces herself to Aly as Antimony. Tom's comment on that page ("not annie, then") put me under the impression that she does not use her nickname with people she does not entirely like or trust. That's why I believe it really is Annie here. She seems to like Gamma very much, and wants Gamma and Zimmy to trust her. I took her little stutter ("a-annie") as her trying to decide whether to call herself Annie or Antimony. The fact that she chose Annie is very meaningful, I feel.
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Post by cheddarius on Jun 4, 2010 14:01:36 GMT
I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but the whole comic has been from Annie's viewpoint. It is introduced as "My name is Antimony Carver", etc. The spotlight does sometimes go off her, but it's mainly from her viewpoint... so it would make sense that Antimony is the one talking here.
Besides, it was a smooth transition into Zimmyham. We saw Annie talking to Jones - that was clearly Annie - and then she walked through the door into Zimmyham. Unless Zimmy did some sort of bizarre speed-of-light switch, the same Annie is here that walked in.
If grinningcat turns out to be right I think it'll be pretty funny.
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Post by legion on Jun 4, 2010 14:08:55 GMT
One of these girls is really confused. Which one? The other one.
Has this been suggested: if Zimmy can forget who she is and appear as someone else… maybe "Gamma" here is actually Zimmy; there was no point of view shift, Zimmy turned the corner, Annie followed her, only to find Zimmy-as-Gamma.
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Post by junebug on Jun 4, 2010 14:18:30 GMT
Well, let's just look at the facts: 1. 'Gamma' suddenly understands English 2. 'Annie' understands telepathy (but this really means nothing because as someone pointed out, she's just never been spoken to in telepathy before) 3. there was no static, only white space that then merged with what looks like Zimmingham 4. neither of them disappear when touched (but this also doesn't mean much, especially if they're not really in Zimmingham) 5. Zimmie always calls Annie 'Carver' (except for the first time, when she calls her Antinomy or something), while Gamma called her 'Annie' in Power Station. So: I think that 'Gamma' is not Gamma, simply because she understands English. Even if Zimmy thought she was Annie (and thus spoke English to Gamma instead of using telepathy), Gamma shouldn't be able to understand her. 'Annie' could actually be either Zimmy or Annie. -if 'Annie' is Annie, then it seems that she can understand telepathy. She says a-annie because she at first wanted to say Antimony, then changes her mind (dunno why?). -if 'Annie' is Zimmy, how would she know that Jack is trying to get to her? Otherwise it could well be her, since 'Annie' is acting pretty unusual (not confused by telepathy, holding Gamma's hand). She says a-annie because she's either used to calling her Carver or still has trouble pronouncing her full name. I think that 'Annie' is Annie, but we'll see As for the Zimmy we see running, she could be either the real Zimmy or an illusion created to lead Annie forward. As for where they are: Annie's scar is missing, so they're not in Zimmingham (at least not the Zimmingham we've seen in Power Station chapter) and neither are they in an etheric simulation. That leaves holographic simulation (not sure if likely, since they'd probably need a special room for that, plus the transition is different), the kind of thing we've seen when Annie went to help that kid in A Ghost story (which on the one hand is probable, seeing how the white background in the 4th panel interacts with Zimmingham, but would on the other hand mean that 'Annie' is Zimmy because we can clearly see that there's no white around her feet when she's interacting with 'Gamma') or something completely different.
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Post by atteSmythe on Jun 4, 2010 14:23:13 GMT
I'd expect Antimony to start speaking to Gamma in Polish. Zimmy doesn't know it, so that would be pretty convincing.
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Post by mail on Jun 4, 2010 14:31:05 GMT
Okay Casey 1. try to have a conversation without thinking about what you are saying, also Tom often translates what they are saying to each other anyway. Anyway my point would stand anyway as Gamma is clearly using her mental connection textboxes previously seen beforehand at the end of chapter 11.
2. throughout the comic she introduces herself as Antimonty in chapter's 1, 2, 3, 14 and probally every other time she introducers herself, im not looking through for examples any more please try to check in the future. Also i clearly mentioned that Zimmy would at least know her name incorrectly, as she missaid it in Chapter 5 when they first met. Annie is easier to catch on to as kat calls her Annie. Also Annie is not her first name at all.
3. I believe that Annie is responding to this, if you have a look through past comics you will notice that she hardly ever initiates physical contact with those and by this holding hands with Gamma for an extended period this is unusual for her as .
Okay person 2 above me Zimmy is the only one who sees annie's scar so Gamma wouldn't notice it. Static is not always involved in entering zimmyland anyway as zimmy has been shown to be able to move in and out of it anyway as zimmyland is shown to be based on her memories of a real place. According to how Gamma reacts this may be a common problem, and so far it seems to me that Gamma has most likely been able to see the truth at a level above the others ie fake kat
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 14:32:24 GMT
You know what, attesmythe has me pondering... Annie's first words to Gamma were "Gamma! We have to find Zimmy!"
...Why indeed did Annie even start speaking to Gamma in English, if she knows Gamma doesn't understand it?
By the same token, why did Gamma initiate the conversation with Annie telepathically?
Arghhh.... brain-screw....
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Post by mail on Jun 4, 2010 14:43:55 GMT
Oh also id expect that Zimmy would have some knowledge that jack would be after her, since she would remember what happend the last time the reactor turned on.
And casey my first point above may explain why Gamma was able to understand, and anyway Gamma cannot comunicate with Zimmy without their mental condition which 'annie' is able to understand. This explains how they were able to comunicate if annie were in fact zimmy If it turns out not to be Zimmy it will create a serious plot hole as Gamma and Zimmy are the only two who are able to telepathically communicate along the same link, which as previously mentioned is being used by Gamma and understood by 'Annie'.
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 14:49:25 GMT
You still haven't addressed the fact that Annie is speaking English out loud, and yet Gamma, who speaks no English, is understanding her. It's possible that Annie is able to receive telepathic communications, being that they are etheric in nature. I don't think it's possible that Gamma instantly learned the English language though.
When Tom is writing words in English with the understanding that they're actually speaking in a different language, he puts brackets around the words. Reference Dobranoc Gamma and Power Station.
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Post by mail on Jun 4, 2010 14:57:22 GMT
Okay easy as i have said before Annie is most likely thinking about what she is saying as she is speaking.
Meanwhile you kindly have not addressed the fact that Annie is suddenly able to understand Gamma's Telepathic link (look closely while she is talking she is not opening her mouth). Before discrediting another of my theories could you please answer this problem.
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Post by rebecca on Jun 4, 2010 15:00:49 GMT
I'm for the idea that this is a simulation designed to trap Zimmy. The fact that previous technology required things like haptic suits shouldn't be seen as a stopping point - we already know Jack is capable of taking technology to the next level. Look at what he did to the restraint program and Reynardine.
We know it isn't actual Zimmingham because Annie's scar is gone - even when the other characters couldn't see it, we did.
If Jack created this Gamma, it would make sense that she could understand English. I can't explain Annie's sudden telepathic ability, though.
Jack has read everyone's student files, so it makes sense that he knows about Gamma and Zimmy's relationship. Gamma would be the perfect bait to lure Zimmy into a trap.
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Post by legion on Jun 4, 2010 15:01:46 GMT
On the other hand, if this is Zimmy thinking she's Annie, maybe she only *thinks* that she's speaking out loud, but is really using the telepathy.
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Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 15:03:24 GMT
I think everything is more or less as it appears. Annie is actually Zimmy, and presumably Zimmy is actually Annie. I'm not sure how deep the “is” goes, exactly, but I suspect on-screen Annie actually is Zimmy in some metaphysical sense, and probably vice-versa. She just thinks she's Annie, looks like Annie to us, and likely has Annie's mind and experiences. I just registered to make this prediction: Annie and Gamma will catch up to Jack and they will find that Annie is already with him. Because Annie 1 is actually Zimmy. Oh, that's cute. In that scenario, I wonder who the Zimmy-shaped girl running off was? I suppose that could have been Zimmy. Why would the big climactic encounter with Jack be, not the adventure of the narrator/protagonist whom we met all the way back in Chapter One, who's been trained for things like this, and who's already been confronting him throughout this two-parter, assigned the mission by Jones only a couple of pages ago, but of one of the supporting characters (if the supporting character whom Jack was pursuing), who has been off-stage throughout most of the two-parter? It doesn't make sense to me at all. One of the things a medium has to learn is when not to intervene, instead letting the parties conduct their affairs as they will. Sometimes this is the appropriate response despite being immensely counter-intuitive. That said, if that isn't the case here, Annie's still around. We saw her run off last page, or else she's around somewhere. I think the strongest evidence that Annie is Annie and Gamma is not Gamma, is the fact that Annie is speaking out loud, not telepathically, in English, and Gamma understands her. Well, maybe-Annie thinks she is, anyway. An uninvolved outside observer might see things quite differently. Wow. I disagree with Casey. I absolutely did not expect this! See, the holodeck thing seems to violate a whole host of world parameters to me. It involves Jack having a lot of etheric control (which he hasn't been shown to have), or building an immensely complicated, magitech construct (which he hasn't been shown capable of), or really, both. It feels like cheap exploitation of instantaneous magitech, which Court technology really isn't. I think there's definitely precedent for Zimmy's etheric hallucinations metafictional mindfuck properties. “We're all still actually on the roof” / “That's not Kat…” Those properties become more difficult to grasp when applied to the identity of the viewpoint character, but, well, so what? It's fiction. Nobody said it would be easy. :-p Plus, there's this cool thing where this means that Annie is really getting the experience of being someone else. Literally. Another valuable medium experience. (This sort of thing tends to bring the two characters closer, one way or another.)
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Post by mail on Jun 4, 2010 15:11:00 GMT
Okay rebecca although Jack is good at technology he isnt that good. All we have seen him do is fix a robot, hack a computer and slightly rewrite a program to set it as a wall mounted trap (and maybe cause extra pain).
There is little to indicate that he is either able to from scratch create a simulation with an AI that mimics Gamma (anyway he dosnt know anything about her).
Any way he can fly and is very quick if he wanted to trap Zimmy he wouldnt even need a computer simulation.
Oh also bravo Violet i completely agree with you.
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 15:11:43 GMT
Okay easy as i have said before Annie is most likely thinking about what she is saying as she is speaking. Meanwhile you kindly have not addressed the fact that Annie is suddenly able to understand Gamma's Telepathic link (look closely while she is talking she is not opening her mouth). Before discrediting another of my theories could you please answer this problem. I typed "It's possible that Annie is able to receive telepathic communications, being that they are etheric in nature." The idea that Annie is simultaneously speaking out loud and unknowingly transmitting telepathically by virtue of her thinking about what she's saying has some merit... until you consider the fact that that would mean every single thought a person had would be transmitted as well, and the telepathic communication is a lot more deliberate than that... more an unspoken conversation than an outright open melding of the two consciousnesses.
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Post by wanderer on Jun 4, 2010 15:15:06 GMT
I can see from this thread that the readership as a whole still doesn't have a clue what's going on. Personally, I'm sticking with the "this Annie is a really confused Zimmy" camp because I find that option to be the most intruiging. Note, I said "most intruiging" not "most likely." I don't think there IS a most likely scenario just now. The one thing that is certain is that nothing at all is certain just now.
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 15:16:46 GMT
See, the holodeck thing seems to violate a whole host of world parameters to me. It involves Jack having a lot of etheric control (which he hasn't been shown to have), or building an immensely complicated, magitech construct (which he hasn't been shown capable of), or really, both. A-hem!
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Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 15:25:14 GMT
… or building an immensely complicated, magitech construct (which he hasn't been shown capable of), or really, both. A-hem!That's a hack on Donlan's computer program. We've seen it used before. He didn't build it from scratch. The only things that could compare with this, were it a simulation, are Zimmingham and Dr. Disaster's simulator. Dr. Disaster's simulator needs user prep (haptic suits, at least), and it seems extraordinarily unlikely that Jack has this kind of control over Zimmingham hallucinations.
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Post by mail on Jun 4, 2010 15:29:46 GMT
Yes but we have seen Zimmy and Gamma connection being undetectable to Annie in the past also im sure somewhere it has been mentioned before somewhere that Gamma and Zimmy's connection is quite unique.
Then it seems to me that Zimmy and Gamma do transmit each others thoughts to each other, as from what I have witnessed that is excactly what is happening.
From that point you could easily go back to the power station storyline where Zimmy lies to Gamma about what they think of her.
To respond to this I submit that Zimmy actually does believe that they dislike Gamma as she is shown to be mentally unbalanced and possesive of Gamma while having a pessimissive look on life. This can easily lead her to seriously believe that someone complementing Gammas hair may actually be mocking gamma.
Oh and casey that structure is very similar to the binding program already in place. and that is neither massive or insanely complicated. Oh damn well thanks again violet
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 15:33:25 GMT
Jack's "bugs" were a combination of tech and etheric. He was able to hack, or tap into, Anja's system, AND change it to suit his own purposes. If he's able to do this with Anja's partially-etheric-based supercomputer, what's to say he couldn't do the same with Dr. Disaster's completely technologically based holographic system? What's to say he couldn't change it to suit his own purposes, adding an etheric element to replicate the haptic suit by simply etherically making someone feel the haptic response? This is all wild conjecture of course, and I'm not convinced that what I'm describing is what's actually happening. I'm just saying that it's possible, and Jack has the skill to do it.
Incidentally, the haptic suits are not required for Dr. Disaster's simulator to work. They ran through the history lesson after having changed out of their suits. They were likely unable to feel any interaction with that simulation, but they were still able to see and hear it. And probably smell it too, depending on how much of a perfectionist that old Randy Disaster really is.
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Post by mail on Jun 4, 2010 15:33:36 GMT
Casey as I see it your theory is full of holes. Can you explain how your theory is credable as i simply cannot understand your reasoning behind it.
For example that simulator was huge, this presents two obvious problems.
1. how did he take what he needed to imerse the program without anyone noticing? 2. Annie was very close to where she met jack before they left for the station. How did she not notice?
Oh also Jack Knows nothing about Zimmy or Gamma so it is impossible for him to learn about them. (chester information being hidden and the court allowing Zimmy and Gamma free unmonitered reign leaving personal information about them scarce) Therefore Gamma would not react the way she has been.
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