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Post by Yin on Jun 9, 2010 8:32:41 GMT
Looks like a sweatdrop to me.
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Post by King Mir on Jun 9, 2010 8:41:05 GMT
I like the Jack is the old Jack, idea. Maybe if you reunite him with new jack, then everything will be fixed with him. That's how those stories usually go.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 9, 2010 8:49:29 GMT
If we're inside some bit of Jack's head I wouldn't expect him to look abnormal, at least not at first. He thinks he's fine.
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Post by Rex on Jun 9, 2010 9:16:52 GMT
There's no indication that we're in anyone other than Zimmy's head, though. That said things just got a whole lot more confusing.
Gamma seems legit aside from seeing Annie as Zimmy. We've got Power Station Jack back, but if what Gamma's saying is true then he's like the Kat-Nobody in that someone's memory/desire generated him. Who? Who knows, but Zimmy was sitting with him before Annie and Gamma showed up. Zimmy seems to have the same problem Gamma has in not recognizing Annie (what in the blazes does she see when she looks at our protagonist?).
Maybe it's a side-effect of the place or an intentional setup by an unknown power, but the end result seems to be complete confusion.
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Post by Charlotte on Jun 9, 2010 9:35:37 GMT
This is a continuation of my theory (dart) from this thread. The only thing I'd alter is that when Annie walked in and saw Jack as Zimmy and when Gamma walked in and saw Annie as Zimmy that these impressions stayed in their mind and were not dependent on where the Zimmy-graph superimposition is standing in the sim. Since this theory hasn't been broken by events of two subsequent pages -- probably a record for how long before my theories get discredited <s> -- I thought I'd run with it some more... Points: + This is a sim controlled by Jack + When Annie walked in he projected an ether-holograph of Zimmy onto himself and she saw him as Zimmy. (He thought the next person through the door would be Gamma -- it was Gamma who he wanted to perceive him as Zimmy). + Jack (as Zimmy-to-Annie) runs to the iron leaning, where, presumably, the controls of the sim and the real Zimmy are being kept. (At least it's not a meathook.) + When Gamma walked in, Annie had walked into the Zimmy-graph projection area and so Gamma saw her as Zimmy. + Jack, whose best laid plans have ganged agley, has reached the iron leaning where he takes a quick ether-graph of himself and loads it into the sim. (unanswered question:) But it only takes it of his normal self, not his etherically affected self. Support: + Annie and Gamma are acting like themselves, but "Zimmy" is not. Normally, Zimmy would latch onto Annie like a life preserver if she were separated from Gamma and things were going weird. + Gamma doesn't see Jack as Zimmy, as Annie does. That is, she is not in the presence of what looks to her like two Zimmy's. She (Gamma) apparently doesn't see him as Jack, either, or she would have, according to this theory, seen two boys matching the description. Unanswered Question: + What does Gamma see when she looks at Jack-as-Zimmy-to-Annie? (Note: if she sees nothing, that would explain why she didn't see Jack-as-Zimmy-to-Annie (or "Zimmy" as everyone else refers to that incarnation) when he ran past her in 729
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Post by Rex on Jun 9, 2010 9:49:54 GMT
+ Gamma doesn't see Jack as Zimmy, as Annie does. That is, she is not in the presence of what looks to her like two Zimmy's. She (Gamma) apparently doesn't see him as Jack, either, or she would have, according to this theory, seen two boys matching the description. I don't know about that. Gamma STILL sees Annie as Zimmy, as evidenced by the look on her face when Annie calls out to Zimmy and asks her if she's ok. She still believes Annie is Zimmy. The real question (which will likely be answered on Friday) is what does she make of what we see as Zimmy?
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Post by legion on Jun 9, 2010 10:05:35 GMT
Confusing page is confusing.
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Post by Charlotte on Jun 9, 2010 10:11:20 GMT
I don't know about that. Gamma STILL sees Annie as Zimmy, as evidenced by the look on her face when Annie calls out to Zimmy and asks her if she's ok. She still believes Annie is Zimmy. Yes. That's what should happen according to my modified theory ("when Annie walked in and saw Jack as Zimmy and when Gamma walked in and saw Annie as Zimmy ... these impressions stayed in their mind"). It's so difficult to word things in a way that all people will understand it as clearly as I do. :-), but thanks for the opportunity to clarify it. Also, it may not be in Annie and Gamma's mind -- it might be instrinsic to the way Jack set the illusion to work, the "strength" of it, as it were. Perhaps when Annie was falling alseep and awakening that was Jack back at the controls sliding the strength of the Zimmy-graph on Annie up and down until he got it to the level he wanted .
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Post by deerinheadlights on Jun 9, 2010 10:14:39 GMT
I think that the Jack in this page has been stuck in Zimmingham all along. I wonder why Zimmy's asking Gamma and Annie not to come any closer? When I first read it I thought she was protecting Jack from being GOP'd but afte reading all these posts I'm not sure.
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Post by nikita on Jun 9, 2010 10:23:50 GMT
I like the "Gamma" is Zimmy theory. It'd explain "Gamma"s odd behaviour, the wicked reality they're in (both results of the station 'messing wif [her] head'). It could explain why Annie was able to walk into Zimmingham (similar to 194) and doesn't have the cut - unlinke in Power Station where she suddenly appeared in Zimmingham and did have the cut.
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Post by judgedeadd on Jun 9, 2010 10:24:20 GMT
Yep. Theory: The "Jack" in the real world, who appeared at the end of "Power Station", was a Nobody (or something else from Zim City) all along. Perhaps the spider is not a parasite on him (it?), but rather himself (itself?) - his (its?) true form. He was confused at first to find himself in another world but quickly figured everything out and proceeded to wreak havoc with his super-etheric abilities, trying to... get back home? Which would explain why he wanted to find Zimmy so bad.
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Post by Rex on Jun 9, 2010 10:36:29 GMT
I think that the Jack in this page has been stuck in Zimmingham all along. I wonder why Zimmy's asking Gamma and Annie not to come any closer? When I first read it I thought she was protecting Jack from being GOP'd but afte reading all these posts I'm not sure. Hmm, her reaction seems to be to the both of them. Or if it's just to one of the pair she doesn't make that much known to us. It also comes before Gamma moves toward Jack. Also, I can't believe I noticed this but it seems like Gamma doesn't understand Jack. I suspect in the following page we'll see more of this and even a possible glop. Who's up for some home grown Glop?
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 9, 2010 10:48:27 GMT
Here's my guess: the "Zimmy" and "Jack" we see are in reality memories (soul-fragments, replicas, etc) of Annie and Jack that have remained behind in Zimmingham and become friends with each other in the meantime, while trapped in this city. This I suppose because of Jack saying about people disappearing when "Zimmy" touches them - that was an ability Annie had in Zimmingham.
"Zimmy" (in reality the animated soul-fragment of Annie) is afraid and/or angry at Zimmy and Gamma, because the last time she saw them, a touch by Gamma destroyed Kat (and then Zimmy and Gamma left her stranded and alone until she discovered the memory of Jack). She's afraid that the same will happen to Jack or even herself now.
That's one part of the mystery. Still not sure how/why the identity confusion is caused though. I'm guessing the reentry of Annie in Zimmingham while a memory of hers was still in there screwed up Zimmy's mind: Zimmy overloaded with Annies, thus making her think she is Annie.
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Post by curtis on Jun 9, 2010 11:05:54 GMT
Hey, all. First post here. Reading the comic and the threads over the past week or so, a few things came to mind.
Definitely with the folks who think this is some kind of simulation (technological, etheric, both? doesn't much matter) from The Being Formerly Known As Jack. White when entered instead of static, no scar and running to head off TBFKA Jack's trap for Zimmy is how she got there.
I'm pretty sure we have a very clear picture of who everyone is now. When they all met and Zimmy was being very Zimmy, Gamma tried to suss out what Jack was and Annie wore her very best "WTF" face it seemed to me that the joke was how the preceding strips made us ask who was who when the real question was "Who has Jack been since Zimmingham?"
On that note, a lot of the argument against this being any kind of simulation was a lot of speculation about Jack's abilities. This never set well with me because it was clear from the moment he flew that he was more than we had any idea. In the last chapter with Coyote, he mentions that through working with Annie some more *she* will be able to do that. Thus far we haven't seen too much flying in this comic, from anyone, and it's safe to assume that Annie is fairly gifted. I don't think she has become so important in this place solely because of lineage. Seeing Jack just take off like that so soon (this is my first new chapter in reading the strip - I read the whole backlog in one sitting so it was VERY soon for me) after seeing Coyote hint at it made me sit up and say "WHOA!" I thought from then that there was a lot more to Jack than met the eye.
Also, yeah, whoever thinks that poor "memory" of Jack is all that's left of the kid Kat kinda liked for a split second (at least for now, could be reversible), I'm with you. <3s and junk and beers are on me.
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rallan
Junior Member
Posts: 86
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Post by rallan on Jun 9, 2010 11:15:24 GMT
What happened to the cut on Annie's cheek? It normally shows up when she visits Birminghell.
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Post by bellerophon on Jun 9, 2010 11:31:46 GMT
Okay, I'm going with the theory that Zimmy transposed herself into thinking she's Annie and seeing Annie as herself between panel four and five here. That's the same person going around the corner in four and emerging on the other side on five. So Annie (appearing as Zimmy here) is trying to protect Zimmy from Jack here (or someone she thinks is Jack, but it seems may be a summoning, like Kat was last time) when she shouts 'Stay back!'. That also explains why Jack was seeing the one we're seeing as Zimmy vanish people, which Zimmy can't do that. And Gamma's look in panel four is just sadness at Zimmy still being confused as to who she is.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 9, 2010 11:59:29 GMT
Wow. Well, I gotta congratulate Tea-San. He's become a master fisherman with this chapter, throwing dozens of red herrings across our paths, not to mention reeling suckers in Having Gamma not say anything, but think at Annie was a brilliant trick; after all, if she speaks out loud, her Polish-ness would give the game away. We finally have "Annie," "Zimmy," "Gamma," and "Jack" all in the same place at the same time, only the staging of the panels is such that we don't see how Gamma gets from Annie to where Jack is, for example, which just adds to the paranoia of the scene. This "Jack" is obviously not the current Jack, even without Gamma providing the exposition. He's way too normal and not "flying crazy spiderman" Jack. It's not just how he looks, he doesn't talk like he did earlier. If Gamma is Gamma, she seems surprisingly okay with the fact that there are now two "Zimmys"; the Annie-Zimmy she's been hanging out with and the Zimmy who's been hanging out with "Jack". She owes Annie an apology for assuming she was Zimmy. (Although I'm intrigued by the fact that Zimmy "forgets herself" from time to time. I'd like to see that explored further...) I'm not quite buying the "Annie is Zimmy" theory, although it does seem like Annie could slip into "Zimmyness," given enough time in Zimmyland. Still, that leaves the question of how Zimmy suddenly "disappeared" when Annie chased after her... Unless "Zimmy" is Jack, and he's been using his hitherto unexplored gender morphing powers to create an elaborate trap... Bah, I dunno. I'm glad I read this forum, because the "what the heck is that sculpture.. thing?" question has been knawing at me.
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Post by Mishmash on Jun 9, 2010 12:08:30 GMT
Okay so I guess I'll throw my dart!
When 'Zimmy' speaks in the third panel, her speech bubble is purple. Correct me if Im wrong but I think Annie's speech bubbles are usually that colour. So from that I have decided that 'Zimmy', the girl sitting with Jack, is actually Annie. The Annie who has been with Gamma really is Zimmy, and we are seeing her look like Annie because we are watching from her point of view.
That would explain the last few pages of Annie getting drowsy and blackness appearing around her eyes... Gamma is bombarding Zimmy with memories to remind her who she is and the delusion is falling away.
It also explains why the Zimmy next to Jack has apparently been gopping people - we know the real Annie is able to do that.
So basically what bellerophon said.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 9, 2010 12:17:17 GMT
Welcome to the forum, Curtis! Here are convenient links to the comics where we see the blip when people went to Zimmingham before, and a similar circumstance we can compare to what we've seen this time. And yep, Antimony had the cut when she was in Zim City before but not now. To be completely fair to those with alternative viewpoints, there is the possibility that this is indeed the "real" Zim City and not a recreation of Jack's (or spiderweb of Jack's spider) because the difference in Antimony's entrance could be explained away by saying that she's walking in to the show after it's started instead of being there when the curtain goes up. However for that to be the case we have to assume a lot of things have happened that we haven't seen. Specifically, that Jack's plan to draw Zimmy out worked and he managed to separate her from Gamma's influence somehow to set off a Zimmy-incident (remember, this time around the power plant hasn't discharged yet). It would be normal(ish) for Antimony to have seen Gamma or Zimmy at the beginning of this thing because they could be standing right near her in reality. If that all happened then it's possible that either or both the Zimmy and Gamma we've been seeing are authentic but there are some problems besides Antimony's cut. Zimmy and Gamma are acting strange. Why is Zimmy sitting with Jack on panel 2 of this page? Zimmy isn't known for socializing normally with strange people and wouldn't like someone who separated her from Gamma at all. Why does Gamma say Antimony is Zimmy, and if she does really think that why doesn't she try to end the Birminghell and find the "missing boy" that way instead of looking for him? And why would Zimmy, on seeing Gamma, back away? Sure, there could be reasons why the real people would act in these ways but to support this theory you have to assume a lot of things happened that we haven't seen. Jack could've come up with a plan to separate Gamma and Zimmy, or just overpowered them with etheric might or other yet-unrevealed Jack powers. Other events might have conspired to make Jack's plan work. Zimmy might have been stuck here long enough without Gamma to want to talk to Jack. Same goes for the "this is a simulation run by the school" theory. It might possibly be true but again we'd have to assume a lot of facts not in evidence, like men in black rushing to set up the holographic equipment before the boat arrives, or maybe a much larger conspiracy. The "this is a spiderweb" theory is very simple. It doesn't even have to be something other than the "real" Zimminghell, though it wouldn't surprise me if Jack/spider could make a fake fake Birmingham. The boy's ghost from Ch 16 and Mort can make big illusions, Jack has some etheric talent, so why not? The spiderweb theory requires only that the Antimony we've been following really be Antimony and makes the assumption that Jack is in here somewhere, which is reasonable since this is his hideout. If either "Zimmy" or "Gamma" is a spider/Nobody then it explains Zimmy's reaction to Gamma. If they're both real or both not real then they could just be confused, or aspects of the general confusion.
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Post by Casey on Jun 9, 2010 12:39:29 GMT
This is so confusing that I couldn't even read everyone's wild speculations because it all started jumbling together in a big mishmash of nonsense in my head.
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Post by todd on Jun 9, 2010 12:44:35 GMT
When 'Zimmy' speaks in the third panel, her speech bubble is purple. Correct me if Im wrong but I think Annie's speech bubbles are usually that colour. Zimmy's speech bubbles *are* purple (I went back to Chapter Nineteen, and checked). Annie's speech bubbles are generally a light reddish tinge. If Tom really *is* doing a switcheroo here, I hope he has a good reason for it and isn't just doing it for the sake of a twist. (Until now, the surprise twists always had a purpose to them and weren't gratuitous.)
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 9, 2010 12:50:14 GMT
You're wrong.
That was lazy of you man, you could have checked this by yourself. :-P
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 9, 2010 13:19:06 GMT
If Tom really *is* doing a switcheroo here, I hope he has a good reason for it and isn't just doing it for the sake of a twist. (Until now, the surprise twists always had a purpose to them and weren't gratuitous.) Well, the closest parallel we have to the possible switcheroo/twist here would be the fake Kat in Power Station. The point of that was demonstrating how disturbing Zimmingham is, which could also be the case here. (unless I've missed some further significance of the fake Kat?)
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Jun 9, 2010 13:25:48 GMT
Hey, excellent! Now maybe we'll get some real answers, ha ha.
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jon77
Full Member
Posts: 245
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Post by jon77 on Jun 9, 2010 14:13:42 GMT
Hey, I've got an idea!
Annie is Annie - it's her POV; Zimmy is Zimmy - who else would she be? Gamma is Gamma - Zim's always beside her. Jack is just Jack - but minus the spider. Guessing is futile - we don't know enough. Wait until Friday - it isn't that tough.
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Post by psibakaonna on Jun 9, 2010 14:36:55 GMT
Bringing rallan's point that Annie is missing her cut back up, we couldn't see that side of Annie's face when she first saw Zimmy back here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=729It certainly sounds like Zimmy thought she was someone else before so it still seems plausible that we're seeing everything from the delusional Zimmy's perspective. We don't know how long the chase went on for so it's possible the real Annie got lost and stumbled across Jack by herself. That's as much sense that I've been able to gather from the last few pages so far, although this theory doesn't play well with how worn out Zimmy/Annie has become... unless that's purely down to the power station... :/
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n3m0
New Member
Posts: 11
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Post by n3m0 on Jun 9, 2010 14:40:21 GMT
Looking at comic 459 almost makes me wonder if the Zimmy in the last panel of 459 isn't Zimmy but the then current Jack because the Zimmy in the previous panel was kneeling and how she is holding her hands in that last panel makes it look like she is holding an umbrella - which Jack was doing in 459. Also, I would have expected more reaction from Jack than "Crap" if he hadn't ever been there before and suddenly found himself looking like a girl. That said, I don't think the difference between kneeling and standing can mean much because Zimmy's clothes also changed, etc.
Its funny how many new people and lurkers are posting now because of the latest comics. ;D
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Post by atteSmythe on Jun 9, 2010 14:50:52 GMT
Wow, can't believe the idea never occurred to me before - speculation follows:
"Annie" is Jack. These two chapters are focused on those two people...if we're not following Antimony, it makes most sense to follow Jack next.
Jack is shifting identities in Birminghell because the real him - the spark of soul that made him the inquisitive kid that found the power station in the first place - got trapped there. Drained of that, his mind is looking for an identity, and shifts from Zimmy (whom he was focused on before activating the station) to Annie after he runs away. The 'real' jack is who we just met today.
"Gamma" is Gamma.
"Zimmy" is Antimony, telling InfectedJack not to come any closer because she's trying to protect RealJack. Zimmy can't usually glop nobodies - this character has to be either Annie or Gamma, from what we know, and I can't imagine Gamma yelling for anyone to stay back like that.
Which would mean Zimmy is still missing - and since Gamma thinks she's found her, no one's looking for her, and that's bad news. Gamma thinks "Annie"/Jack is Zimmy because he suffers from the same or similar affliction. Even if it's only subconsciously, she must be able to feel the ether flowing through him.
...my stab at rationalizing all this anyway. Great, great chapter. Really loving it!
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Post by eightyfour on Jun 9, 2010 15:08:58 GMT
Beat me to the link. Here's a pic of the floozy instead. From the Wikipedia article: Oooh, I get it! The iron leaning... clever!
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Post by wanderer on Jun 9, 2010 15:09:56 GMT
80 bazillion theories. I give up on reading all of them. I'll just go with mine, which I am growing marginally more confident about.
Zimmy here is Annie: She possesses the ability to make the nobodies disappear, but is not as powerful as Gamma and so does not recognize that Jack isn't Jack. That happened before with Kat, the last time Annie came to Sunny Birmingham. She cannot be Zimmy, as Zimmy can't make the nobodies disappear. And she almost certainly isn't Gamma, as Gamma first wouldn't be yelling in English, second wouldn't be getting so emotional about things anyway, and third would recognize as the Gamma on this page did that Jack isn't quite Jack.
Annie is still Zimmy: Same arguments people have been using for the last few updates still apply.
Gamma is Gamma, and she's miles ahead of anyone else in terms of understanding what's going on.
Jack, clearly, is not quite Jack. Insufficient data at this point, but it's possible this part of him was left here when he last stopped by.
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