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Post by GK Sierra on May 31, 2013 17:34:22 GMT
is still my head canon, though. Whenever somebody says this phrase, all I can think is this:
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 1, 2013 5:29:09 GMT
Renard didn't know at the time that "Surma made this body"; he learned that later. And the fact that Surma made the body has no bearing on Rey being trapped in it. He was trapped because that body was Antimony's property.
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Post by muningray on Jun 7, 2013 7:47:06 GMT
At the risk of delving into what seems to be a very acrimonious debate, I wanted to share an idea that occurred to me while reading the most recent page (4 of chapter 43).
Lately, the name "Reynardine" has completely fallen by the wayside. Seemingly everyone has reverted to calling our favorite fox trickster by the name "Renard". Knowing Tom's propensity for minute attention to symbolic detail, this seems significant. We know that Rey went by Renard up until the point that Surma labelled him as Reynardine in her attempt to lure him into the Court. And we know that he continued to go by Reynardine for some time after that.
We know that prior to Surma's deception, Rey nobly refused Coyote's insistent offers of power out of a desire to remain closer to humans. Once he came to believe Surma loved him and received the name Reynardine, he accepted the godlike but murderous power of body jumping, used it to possess a young man and, in so doing, killed him. We further know that he at least seems to attempt to possess and kill Annie (still going by the name Reynardine). For some time, we mostly see him as a scowling, fanged, snarky and rude creature and for this period, he still goes by the name Reynardine. He even refers to himself by this name. However, other traits begin to emerge: nobility, loyalty, protectiveness, erudition. And with the emergence of these new traits, so too we get his new, more canine body. And his old name begins to reappear.
It's generally accepted as canon, and strongly indicated within the comic, that the shifts between his two forms indicates different sides of his personality coming out. What I want to suggest is that his two names function similarly, but over a longer timeline. Reynardine is the dark, selfish side of his personality that is willing to kill for his own needs and desires. Renard is the nobler side of his personality that makes us all so confused by the idea that he might have attempted to possess Annie. Essentially the transition from Renard to Reynardine and back to Renard is meant as a symbolic clue as to his character development.
Food for thought.
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temnoc
Junior Member
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Post by temnoc on Jun 7, 2013 8:17:22 GMT
Call me newbie, but it makes sense to me.
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 7, 2013 8:28:32 GMT
At the risk of delving into what seems to be a very acrimonious debate, I wanted to share an idea that occurred to me while reading the most recent page (4 of chapter 43). Lately, the name "Reynardine" has completely fallen by the wayside. Seemingly everyone has reverted to calling our favorite fox trickster by the name "Renard". Knowing Tom's propensity for minute attention to symbolic detail, this seems significant. We know that Rey went by Renard up until the point that Surma labelled him as Reynardine in her attempt to lure him into the Court. And we know that he continued to go by Reynardine for some time after that. We know that prior to Surma's deception, Rey nobly refused Coyote's insistent offers of power out of a desire to remain closer to humans. Once he came to believe Surma loved him and received the name Reynardine, he accepted the godlike but murderous power of body jumping, used it to possess a young man and, in so doing, killed him. We further know that he at least seems to attempt to possess and kill Annie (still going by the name Reynardine). For some time, we mostly see him as a scowling, fanged, snarky and rude creature and for this period, he still goes by the name Reynardine. He even refers to himself by this name. However, other traits begin to emerge: nobility, loyalty, protectiveness, erudition. And with the emergence of these new traits, so too we get his new, more canine body. And his old name begins to reappear. It's generally accepted as canon, and strongly indicated within the comic, that the shifts between his two forms indicates different sides of his personality coming out. What I want to suggest is that his two names function similarly, but over a longer timeline. Reynardine is the dark, selfish side of his personality that is willing to kill for his own needs and desires. Renard is the nobler side of his personality that makes us all so confused by the idea that he might have attempted to possess Annie. Essentially the transition from Renard to Reynardine and back to Renard is meant as a symbolic clue as to his character development. Food for thought. Excellent first post. My thoughts exactly. Kat even said back when they were first exploring the workshop and Diego's morbid little mechanical play in the basement, something to the effect of "You should stay as a wolf more often dude, you're way nicer this way".
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Post by GK Sierra on Jul 1, 2013 7:01:53 GMT
Did Renard try to possess Annie?
Yes. But he hesitated.
/thread
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Post by Eversist on Jul 1, 2013 7:19:14 GMT
Cookies for everyone, then!
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Post by GK Sierra on Jul 1, 2013 8:36:23 GMT
A- a real resolution?
To one of Tom's mysteries?
GREAT SCOTT THE SKY HAS SPLIT ASUNDER
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Post by Nnelg on Jul 1, 2013 8:51:55 GMT
I wouldn't call this settled just yet, though. The fresh evidence is pretty strong, but it isn't conclusive. Renardine has to keep up appearances with Hetty, and we've already seen that he is at the very least content to let her maintain false assumptions about why he possessed Danny. But the chapter is still young, so there's plenty of time for additional clues to surface.
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Post by GK Sierra on Jul 1, 2013 8:53:57 GMT
The hesitation does change the circumstances a bit, but if he never meant to possess her at all he probably wouldn't feel miserable and guilty.
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melkior
Junior Member
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Post by melkior on Jul 1, 2013 10:30:59 GMT
I think it's fairly clear that Rey did intend to possess Antimony but now regrets that attempt.
The only possibly debatable point is whether he regrets it because of the results (ending up trapped in that toy) or because he feels truly ashamed.
My opinion is that the weight of evidence leans strongly toward Rey feeling truly ashamed for his actions, not just regretting the results.
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Post by Corvo on Jul 1, 2013 12:13:18 GMT
The only possibly debatable point is whether he regrets it because of the results (ending up trapped in that toy) or because he feels truly ashamed. And also when did he try it. Looks to me, in 1217, that he's trying to get out of the plush body, which means he was already trapped when he tried to possess her.
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mcmuffinking
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Post by mcmuffinking on Jul 1, 2013 12:22:42 GMT
I think that as he has grown fond of Annie (and possibly being freed from what was likely a lving hell in imprisonment) that he feels guilty for attempting what would be basically murdering her. All in all, I think that while he has made mistakes, Reynard is quite a principled guy.
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Post by cannister on Jul 1, 2013 13:50:58 GMT
MYSTERY SOLVED.
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Post by avurai on Jul 1, 2013 14:39:38 GMT
I was originally of the opinion that Reynardine did attempt to take her body and only came to regret his actions over time (since first reading it). If one considers the fact that Tom is neither here nor there on the issue of whether Eglamore tortured him whilst he was trapped in Sivo's body, it would make sense that he would be so desperate and thus would deeply regret taking such a dramatic course of action once his situation became less dire. Torture can make anything seem reasonable, and being locked away in the dark, impaled with a large metal rod (first in his leg, then in his arm), bloody and beaten... It's easy to see why anyone would go so far, to be honest. Especially someone who's killed before, even if regrettably. I then switched to the opinion that it was all staged. Because he noticed. And seemed rather... inquisitive. gunnerkrigg.com/?p=44Now, with the most recent page, I'm finding myself rearing back into my original interpretation.
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Post by philman on Jul 1, 2013 16:40:52 GMT
I think at first, when it happened, Renard knew Surma was dead as he had seen Annie. He didn't care about possessing her daughter to get free, and tried to until Eglamore saved her.
Over time, he came to know Annie, came to see a lot more of Surma's fire inside her, and regrets what he tried to do. That is, killing a girl who went on to become his friend, and he has now become like a father-figure for her.
Plus as people have said, torture can make a person do all sorts of things.
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Post by Nnelg on Jul 1, 2013 19:58:22 GMT
I disagree with everyone who's saying or implying that Rey didn't care about Annie at first. I think he sincerely regretted the desperate measure he was taking as he was doing it. It's ridiculous to think that he'd harbor no empathy at all for the daughter (not to mention final legacy) of the one he loved.
Hm... Here's a thought: perhaps Rey still held out hope that he could possibly leave a body without killing it. In fact, it's certain the one being who'd be able to extract Rey safely is the very last person the Court would ask for help on the matter: Coyote. So that hope would make attempting to possess her thinkable in the first place.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 6:23:48 GMT
Renard truly attempting to posess Annie out of desperation/frustration seems to be a pretty good guess at the moment, but I'd like a little more explanation before we close this case. There are stil a couple of loose ends.
Although, knowing Tom, this may be all the explanation we ever get.
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Post by Georgie L on Jul 10, 2013 18:21:20 GMT
Surma obviously planned to have the toy as a way to capture reynardine, in my opinion.
The question left hanging though is, did she intend it for; her own protection, for Reynard's protection, For both, or was it another betrayal by Surma planned by the court?
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htown
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Post by htown on Jul 22, 2013 11:44:53 GMT
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Post by lunarluminesce on Jul 22, 2013 11:59:44 GMT
It seems that way. Though, for all we know, we'll get "And then as I saw her watching me with her large eyes, so much like Surma's, I knew I couldn't go through with it".....or something that could twist it up a bit.
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melkior
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Post by melkior on Jul 22, 2013 12:56:47 GMT
It does seem rather definitive, doesn't it? Now the only question (which it seems Rey is about to answer) is whether he truly ended up in that toy by accident or had a change of heart just before possessing Antimony.
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Post by Per on Jul 22, 2013 14:10:14 GMT
Obviously Reynardine meant he was going to kill her socially by doing mischief in the doll and getting it blamed on her.
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Post by arf on Jul 22, 2013 14:21:21 GMT
I retain a small suspicion that Rey is telling this tale for the benefit of Hetty, and is making himself appear more ruthless than he is to keep her attention. Does that make sense or does my Occamic razor need sharpening?
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Post by lordofpotatoes on Jul 22, 2013 18:05:55 GMT
Meanwhile in Denialtown...
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 22, 2013 18:14:19 GMT
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Post by Señor Goose on Jul 22, 2013 20:14:20 GMT
I retain a small suspicion that Rey is telling this tale for the benefit of Hetty, and is making himself appear more ruthless than he is to keep her attention. Does that make sense or does my Occamic razor need sharpening? Lex Parsimoniae? Let's not discount the possibility that Renard is stretching the truth just a skoch, maybe to segue into a lecture about humans and ownership contracts. FOr the meantime though, this is canon.
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Post by Purgatorius on Jul 26, 2013 16:39:13 GMT
Did Reynardine truly attempt to possess Annie? Yes, he did, but he regretted it soon afterwards. Mystery solved. :-)
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melkior
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Post by melkior on Jul 26, 2013 17:40:05 GMT
The only question remaining is whether or not Rey is lying to Hetty, and I see no reason for him to be doing so.
So presuming Rey is telling the truth, the question is answered firmly in the affirmative. Rey did mean to kill Antimony.
Of course, he now deeply regrets that attempt (still presuming that he's been telling the truth to Hetty, which there is every reason to believe he is).
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Post by avurai on Jul 29, 2013 4:15:42 GMT
Basically: Yes, but he feels bad about it.
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