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Post by zolotoi on Jun 21, 2010 10:00:45 GMT
My guess is failed Suicide-By-Dragon-Slayer. ... * On the roof, Rey recognizes the doll as something Surma made, and asks about it, but has no intention of possession. I have to say I like where this theory goes, but find it basically problematic in that it's predicated on Reynardine having recognized in the very beginning that Surma made the doll. Rey's surprise in this much later strip at the revelation that it was Surma who made his new body seems genuine to me.
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Post by Quizzie on Jun 21, 2010 21:39:35 GMT
What if Rey didn't know he could occupy a toy until he tried it? At least maybe he wasn't so sure about it...? And it took him some time to decide whether it was worth the risk of dying. That's why he hovered above Annie for a while before possessing the plushy.
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Post by todd on Jun 21, 2010 23:08:52 GMT
Incidentally, Annie and Reynardine remind me at times of an Internet project that I was part of some years ago. I and a few other people wrote a group of stories about King Arthur returning from Avalon to the modern world and having adventures in it. During the stories, Arthur made friends with a young British girl named Mary Sefton who became his squire and a surrogate-daughter. Mary was turned into a werewolf-of-a-sort after her first adventure in Arthur's company; by day, she becomes a talking wolf (though still thinking like herself, rather than like a conventional werewolf), while at night she becomes human again.
During Mary's adventures with Arthur and his other friends (in a story I helped write), they encountered the Fenris-wolf, still chained by the Norse gods at the ends of the earth and unable to escape. Fenris takes an interest in Mary and offers to help free her from her unwanted cycle of metamorphoses; Mary agrees, only to discover afterwards that Fenris wants to make her a wolf full-time, seeing that as her true nature. (He looks upon her as a surrogate-daughter as well, I hasten to add, not as a potential mate.) Mary protests this, wanting to at least keep the cycle from human to wolf to human if she can't become human full-time; Fenris at last yields, agreeing not to turn her into a wolf full-time, but at that point, Arthur, misinterpreting the situation to think that Fenris has kidnapped Mary, dashes to the rescue. A fight briely breaks out, until Mary, trying to explain the situation, interposes herself between Arthur and Fenris and is wounded by Excalibur. Arthur and the Fenris-wolf break off the fight in alarm, and Fenris heals Mary of her wound and lets her go with Arthur. The story ended with Mary thinking that though the Fenris-wolf is wild and dangerous (he's made it clear that if he ever gets free from his chain, Odin is in for a very bad day), he did care about her and she hopes to visit him again someday, while Fenris solemnly watches her leave.
(As an added parallel to Annie, Mary had also recently lost her mother and was grieving for her - and was also estranged from her father; he hadn't deserted her, but he *had* buried himself so much in his work since his wife's death that he had all but ignored her.)
I worked on that project a few years before "Gunnerkrigg Court" came out, so it didn't influence that story, and I'm certain that Tom hasn't read it - but I still find the parallel striking.
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whosit
Full Member
So totally a self-portrait.
Posts: 105
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Post by whosit on Jun 24, 2010 21:33:36 GMT
Interesting story. I've always considered Fenrir to be more of a raving, incestuous lunatic, though. Odin and the other Aesir are responsible for his madness (as well as Hel's and Jormungandr's situations), but that doesn't change what Fenrir is. Of course, if you want to look at the root of the problem, Loki was, in my opinion, a worse influence on his and Angrboda's offspring than anyone else. A right nasty piece of work, that one.
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Post by todd on Jun 24, 2010 22:04:37 GMT
Of course, if you can accept the Minotaur as a gentle, peaceloving fellow and Theseus as a drunken party-crasher....
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whosit
Full Member
So totally a self-portrait.
Posts: 105
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Post by whosit on Jun 24, 2010 22:10:19 GMT
Haha, I dunno, man. Somehow, I can accept Tom's inverted minotaur story more easily than a decent Fenrir. Maybe it's just because I have an old, immature disliking for Greco-roman mythology.
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Post by TheGremlin on Jul 4, 2010 21:54:09 GMT
I think Reynardine meant to possess her, but he never intended to leave.
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Post by jesses on Jul 9, 2010 8:13:33 GMT
I think Reynardine meant to possess her, but he never intended to leave. I was just thinking that. Reynardine only kills people when he leaves their body, he might not have ever intended to leave Annie. We know for sure that Reynardine has only ever taken three bodies, the man he killed, Sivo and the doll (when Coyote is telling Annie the story we see the body of a dead rabbit and Rey's face, so thats maybe a fourth. He could have easily taken the bunny and killed it, but then thought that it was just because he had overwhelmed the tiny creature, and thus believed that he wouldn't harm the man, so he takes the man's body to woo Surma, accidentally kills him and in the ensuing fight takes Sivo as a matter of necessity. I think that Reynardine hoped to take Annie's body and use it to escape, or failing that force the Court to free him, after all they would be loathe to harm their recently dead friends daughter, he was then going to head back to the forest and have Coyote return him to his original form/body while leaving Annie intact. It seems like this should be well within Coyote's power. This is all just my wild speculation though.
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Post by TheGremlin on Jul 9, 2010 16:06:55 GMT
I think Reynardine meant to possess her, but he never intended to leave. I was just thinking that. Reynardine only kills people when he leaves their body, he might not have ever intended to leave Annie. We know for sure that Reynardine has only ever taken three bodies, the man he killed, Sivo and the doll (when Coyote is telling Annie the story we see the body of a dead rabbit and Rey's face, so thats maybe a fourth. He could have easily taken the bunny and killed it, but then thought that it was just because he had overwhelmed the tiny creature, and thus believed that he wouldn't harm the man, so he takes the man's body to woo Surma, accidentally kills him and in the ensuing fight takes Sivo as a matter of necessity. I think that Reynardine hoped to take Annie's body and use it to escape, or failing that force the Court to free him, after all they would be loathe to harm their recently dead friends daughter, he was then going to head back to the forest and have Coyote return him to his original form/body while leaving Annie intact. It seems like this should be well within Coyote's power. This is all just my wild speculation though. Remember, though, he doesn't want to go back to the forest, and since 'he broke their rules', he actually can't.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jul 9, 2010 16:32:48 GMT
Since she'd be effectively dead, her soul trapped in a body that she couldn't control, wouldn't that be even more horrific and more evil than if he killed her outright?
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Post by Darkhand on Jul 9, 2010 16:45:54 GMT
Remember, though, he doesn't want to go back to the forest, and since 'he broke their rules', he actually can't. Despite this, Coyote sends his shadow men to kidnap Rey and bring him back. Coyote also asks Surma to remind Rey that his body still waits for him in the Forest. Since she'd be effectively dead, her soul trapped in a body that she couldn't control, wouldn't that be even more horrific and more evil than if he killed her outright? We don't know how the 'taken' experiences the body-snatching. It could simply render the user unconscious for the duration. Or perhaps Rey can decide if the body's owner is still awake.
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Post by jesses on Jul 9, 2010 18:39:49 GMT
Coyote implies that Rey can actually return to the forest, the 'broke their rules thing' is just a convenient excuse.
Also he doesn't want to return now but it seems fairly likely that when he is first introduced in the body of Sivo he is attempting to escape to the forest, whether he intended to stay there or was just trying to get to it in order to move through it to somewhere else is entirely up for grabs.
I say this was his likely destination because we have, to my recollection, never seen anything but more Court or the Forest in any horizon shot.
I'm willing to bet that Rey's host are not tortured or otherwise harmed up until the point he leaves for two reasons;
- Rey has not shown any tendency to sadism.
- If Sivo had been suffering torment for many years, since Eggers does state that they had given up much hope of ever extracting Rey, I think he would have had the fortitude to put Sivo out of his misery.
As a side not; are we sure that the man Rey took wasn't taken willingly? It is strongly implied multiple times that Surma was very much sought after by many people and creatures. If he was the first being Rey took then Rey would have assumed that, like Coyote, he could leave him unharmed.
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Ruushi
Full Member
Touch the onion!!!
Posts: 146
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Post by Ruushi on Jul 9, 2010 21:07:20 GMT
Not sure if anyone else saw that look But in Spring Heeled when their rowing to the Power Station When Jack said he tried to kill Annie it looked like he was sad Maybe after two years(?)he didn't like that idea anymore...
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Post by katsub on Sept 11, 2010 20:58:00 GMT
Well, I think there were subtle hints that Reynardine wanted to posses a toy from the very beginning. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=46 : He draws attention to the toy. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=45 : "Take care of the little one first." www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=55 : His attempt to posses Annie is a bit showy. That makes me think that he knew Eglamore was nearby and just wanted everyone to believe he is dead. But than again: why didn't he do that on the roof? Well, maybe because his master plan needed to be perfected or simply Annie fainted and he couldn't make it showy enough or he couldn't make it at all because she was not conscious. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=107 : "The perfect disguise" page mentioned many times before seems to support that theory in many ways. Read posts above. On the other hand, that might just be what I want to see because I begun to like Rey. And even though Rey never confirmed that he really DID want to kill Annie he does seem to feel guilty about it on page 702 (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=702). Hope it is clear enough.
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Post by jayne on Sept 12, 2010 0:16:02 GMT
Well, I think there were subtle hints that Reynardine wanted to posses a toy from the very beginning. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=46 : He draws attention to the toy. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=45 : "Take care of the little one first." www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=55 : His attempt to posses Annie is a bit showy. That makes me think that he knew Eglamore was nearby and just wanted everyone to believe he is dead. But than again: why didn't he do that on the roof? Well, maybe because his master plan needed to be perfected or simply Annie fainted and he couldn't make it showy enough or he couldn't make it at all because she was not conscious. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=107 : "The perfect disguise" page mentioned many times before seems to support that theory in many ways. Read posts above. On the other hand, that might just be what I want to see because I begun to like Rey. And even though Rey never confirmed that he really DID want to kill Annie he does seem to feel guilty about it on page 702 (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=702). Hope it is clear enough. I agree with you except, I don't think he knew he could inhabit an inanimate object until he was forced to try. Why didn't he just take over a robot without a cpu? No consequences at all!
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Post by Casey on Sept 12, 2010 0:33:40 GMT
I agree with you except, I don't think he knew he could inhabit an inanimate object until he was forced to try. If that's true, then his comment in the last frame of this page would seem out of place. Because there weren't any? The only nonfunctional robots we've seen anywhere were the ancient ones that were behind two locks in a warehouse in an abandoned part of the Court.
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Post by Goatmon on Sept 12, 2010 1:36:14 GMT
Tom is good at pulling surprises on the readers, but generally he sticks to occam's razor.
More than likely, Reynardine was aiming for Annie, but was stuck having to go for the doll instead.
I think the real unknown here is his intention in doing so - Did he wish to kill Annie, or was it just a side-affect of using her to escape?
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Post by jayne on Sept 12, 2010 2:38:51 GMT
I agree with you except, I don't think he knew he could inhabit an inanimate object until he was forced to try. If that's true, then his comment in the last frame of this page would seem out of place. Yeah but wouldn't he say the same thing even if he didn't know? There's a LOT of CPUs being studied... where are all those bodies? They can't all be paperclips. #13 was just loose bits in a box. There were plenty more bits laying around. He was in the dragon for 5 years, but he started jumping bodies before Annie was born. At some point, he could have put together a robot and moved into it and not fear anything dying. That is, IF he knew he could do that...
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Post by jayne on Sept 16, 2010 21:06:04 GMT
I just switched camps.... I don't think Rey was after Annie... He's a PROFESSIONAL trickster... as in really good at tricking people. I think he was playing a trick. He didn't go after Annie or her Doll on the roof because Eglamore was watching! And Rey knew he was watching without looking behind him. When he attacked Annie, Eglamore was watching again and I bet Rey knew then too... he looked at something while in spirit form. He knew Eglamore would save Annie if she was in danger.... this is when he plays his trick. I think Rey was trying to catch Eglamore! Annie was just bait to get Eglamore to come close enough for him to make the leap. Annie is just a little girl and Surma's little girl at that. Eglamore on the other hand is an equal opponent. Eglamore is fair game. What about Eglamore's tattoo? Only 2 people have that tattoo, how did they test to see if it worked at all? Don't expect Rey to give you the right answer. Bad luck for Rey that Eglamore rolled by too fast! He simply missed the target he intended and had to try to get into the doll or die. He couldn't go back to the dragon... that body is already dead. Oh but what about when Eglamore was so close? You know how fast Eglamore is... if Rey's eyes started to glow, he's just have to leap out of range! Rey would be alone with nowhere to go. Rey wouldn't risk that.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 17, 2010 1:29:08 GMT
He couldn't go back to the dragon... that body is already dead. It's not widely known, but Tom has stated that Rey could have returned to Sivo's body and reanimated it. The body would still be dead, however, and would start rotting. If he failed to find a new host before the eyes were gone, then he'd be trapped, and if he were still in the corpse when it rotted completely, then he would die.
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Post by jayne on Sept 17, 2010 1:33:43 GMT
He couldn't go back to the dragon... that body is already dead. It's not widely known, but Tom has stated that Rey could have returned to Sivo's body and reanimated it. The body would still be dead, however, and would start rotting. If he failed to find a new host before the eyes were gone, then he'd be trapped, and if he were still in the corpse when it rotted completely, then he would die. That is amazingly cool and disgusting at the same time! ;D Ah and he needs eyes to enter AND leave a body...that's news!
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 17, 2010 1:43:47 GMT
This page on the wiki has everything Tom's said about Rey's abilities. From that golden age before the fans asked so many ridiculous hypothetical questions that Tom swore to never speak of the subject again.
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Post by basser on Sept 17, 2010 1:47:03 GMT
Reynardine isn't a human, he's a wild fox. No matter how much you think a wild animal likes you, it'll still bite you if you corner it. Go so far as keeping an animal trapped under fear of death and it's likely to rip the throat out of the first weak link it finds. So yeah, if the one thing standing between the trickster god of foxes and his own life is a little girl he may or may not have some attachment to, he's probably going to kill the girl. Heroic self-sacrifice has no place in the animal world.
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Post by q3 on Sept 17, 2010 2:13:09 GMT
My best guess is that Renard did intend to possess Annie, but did not intend to kill her and essentially was going to take her hostage: threaten Eglamore that he would kill Annie if he was not allowed to return to the forest, but promise that once freed he would have Coyote remove him without killing Annie. While he hoped Coyote would actually be able to separate them successfully, it was only essential that Eglamore believe that Coyote could do that. He likely knew of Eglamore's feelings for Surma, and may even have believed Eglamore to be Annie's father, so this gambit might be his best chance to get past Eglamore. While my theory is definitely convoluted, it does have the virtue of keeping Renard from lying in anything he says here. He did hope that Annie would come, because he had already formulated this plan, and did need Annie's help, via her body, but he also believed (or hoped, at least) that she would be alive later for him to explain everything. Renard not being sure about whether Coyote could actually save her would also allow for his later expressions of guilt when this question is raised.
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Post by jayne on Sept 17, 2010 2:26:49 GMT
Did you plan for your readership to be in doubt/split in half about whether Reynardine actually tried to kill Annie or if he was after the doll all along? Yep. [112] Well, we're making Tom happy! ;D
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Post by Elaienar on Sept 17, 2010 18:36:38 GMT
Not sure if anyone else saw that look But in Spring Heeled when their rowing to the Power Station When Jack said he tried to kill Annie it looked like he was sad Maybe after two years(?)he didn't like that idea anymore... That makes sense. We've got no evidence that Reynardine liked Antimony from the start - his attitude towards her at their first meeting was colored by his initial belief that she was Surma. Once he knew that she wasn't, the only thing that might have kept him from deciding to possess her was the fact that she's Surma's child - but she's also Anthony Carver's child, and if he thought she had something to do with her mother's death, Reynardine might actually have resented her. Anyway, like you said, we've seen Reynardine grow fonder of Antimony over the course of the comic, but we don't know if he liked her enough not to plan on possessing her the day after they met when it could have meant freedom after years of imprisonment.
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Post by jayne on Sept 17, 2010 20:26:48 GMT
Reynardine isn't a human, he's a wild fox. No matter how much you think a wild animal likes you, it'll still bite you if you corner it. Go so far as keeping an animal trapped under fear of death and it's likely to rip the throat out of the first weak link it finds. So yeah, if the one thing standing between the trickster god of foxes and his own life is a little girl he may or may not have some attachment to, he's probably going to kill the girl. Heroic self-sacrifice has no place in the animal world. Comparing Reynardine with a common fox is a bit of a reach, I think. For one thing, it would be really hard to corner Rey at all, much less cause him to react with panic, like a wild fox would. He's much too rational for that. Eglamore insulted him by suggesting he was hiding behind a little girl. Rey wouldn't have been insulted by that if a little girl was fair game for him but Rey (and Eglamore) would not think that was honorable. Rey is nothing like a wild animal. Could you imagine insulting a wolf?
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Post by aaroncampbell on Sept 17, 2010 23:40:35 GMT
My best guess is that Renard did intend to possess Annie, but did not intend to kill her and essentially was going to take her hostage: threaten Eglamore that he would kill Annie if he was not allowed to return to the forest, but promise that once freed he would have Coyote remove him without killing Annie. While he hoped Coyote would actually be able to separate them successfully, it was only essential that Eglamore believe that Coyote could do that. He likely knew of Eglamore's feelings for Surma, and may even have believed Eglamore to be Annie's father, so this gambit might be his best chance to get past Eglamore. While my theory is definitely convoluted, it does have the virtue of keeping Renard from lying in anything he says here. He did hope that Annie would come, because he had already formulated this plan, and did need Annie's help, via her body, but he also believed (or hoped, at least) that she would be alive later for him to explain everything. Renard not being sure about whether Coyote could actually save her would also allow for his later expressions of guilt when this question is raised. I like this idea a great deal. It gives Reynardine a chance to escape, with the hope that Coyote can make things right. (If anyone has the ability to save one of Reynardine's posessed victims, Coyote can.) It also seems to be possible, according to what Tom has said: Does someone die the instant Reynardine takes over their body, or are they still conscious on some level until he exits the body? The theory is the latter, but in practice it is the former.
When Reynardine takes over a body, is the person still 'alive' inside? That is, can they still think and feel, but have no control over their actions? No they can't think or feel anything, but they aren't quite dead.
(from Word of Tom: Reynardine) Finally, it seems sensible. Reynardine may have hoped Annie would come find him in the Large Animal Holding Cells, but I doubt he would have expected her to bring along a stuffed toy. Why should she? It seems much more likely that he had planned to posess her and use her as a hostage to get back to Coyote, whom he'd hoped could set everything right. Great theory, q3! ;D
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Post by q3 on Nov 8, 2010 14:17:12 GMT
In light of new information about Surma's relationship with Renard, I wonder if that doesn't make it more likely that he did truly attempt to possess Annie. When he saw her for the first time, he didn't think of her merely as "the daughter of the woman I loved," but rather as "the daughter of the woman I loved, who tricked and betrayed me and is responsible for my current predicament." It's going to be a bit easier to take potentially lethal action against the latter person.
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Post by Casey on Nov 8, 2010 15:32:10 GMT
In light of new information about Surma's relationship with Renard, I wonder if that doesn't make it more likely that he did truly attempt to possess Annie. When he saw her for the first time, he didn't think of her merely as "the daughter of the woman I loved," but rather as "the daughter of the woman I loved, who tricked and betrayed me and is responsible for my current predicament." It's going to be a bit easier to take potentially lethal action against the latter person. It's been stated elsewhere that it seems pretty clear from Renard's behavior throughout the comic that he is either unaware that Surma "tricked" him, or it's possible that the truth of what actually happened (we only have a non-present third-party's hesitant answer to go on) is a lot more complex than that.
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