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Post by Casey on Aug 12, 2009 4:05:18 GMT
I think any time any male said that a fight against a woman wouldn't be fair, any female listening would assume the male was being sexist. I don't think that has anything to do with Annie and Eglamore specifically.
I could also go point by point with King Mir's response above and explain exactly why I see the exact same scenes differently, and go into a long sociological discussion, but in the end people's opinions are their opinions, and they aren't going to change.
It just illustrates how it's completely possible for two people to look upon the exact same thing and see it in totally different ways. No opinion is any more or less "right" than another's opinion. Though one might be closer to the artist's intention than the other, I think that art is, by its nature, designed to involve the viewer and have them interpret it based on their own world view. Therefore we should all respectfully agree that we see the world differently and be satisfied with that.
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Post by katybee on Aug 12, 2009 4:49:22 GMT
That's exactly what I meant! Only, the way you said it is much more coherent. Awesome! |
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jon77
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Post by jon77 on Aug 12, 2009 6:48:50 GMT
Har har har. Oh James. And Jones thought you were so butch. I ought to make an actual contribution and stop making Monty Python jokes. However, the next page will be up before long and I can comment on that, so I won't. There's no such thing as too many Monty Python jokes. |
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jon77
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Post by jon77 on Aug 12, 2009 7:08:42 GMT
All that said and aside, I want us to turn our attention to the last time Annie and James interacted. Their last conversation was in Ch 20: Coyote Stories. As a preamble, I want to turn your attention to this page, panel 5. Here Jones explains to Annie (and then quickly brushes it aside) that the way Eglamore acts towards her (Annie) is because he has a desire to protect her. You can see Annie is curious about this but Jones deliberately doesn't let her address it. But it's important to remember that this is still nagging in Annie's mind in the next scenes I'm going to show you. I think this is an important point you're making. I would interpret it as a change in their relationship in this scene. I would say that Annie is not just curious about Jones' explanation in 479, but also quite surprised. She's saying "Excuse me?" when Jones interrupts her and changes the subject. It changes her view of him in the next few pages. I think you're quite right that in the rest of the scene they behave in a much more civil fashion. I see it as an improvement in their previously strained relationship, rather casting doubt that the tension ever existed. I've gotta agree. Especially if last time all of his concern and attention was directed at you. Now you're lost in a crowd of groupies. |
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jon77
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Post by jon77 on Aug 12, 2009 7:16:49 GMT
I think any time any male said that a fight against a woman wouldn't be fair, any female listening would assume the male was being sexist. I don't think that has anything to do with Annie and Eglamore specifically. True, but it's one thing to think that he's sexist, and another to call him out on it. I think that does reflect a pre-existing tension. |
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Post by King Mir on Aug 13, 2009 0:14:19 GMT
Then there's the faux pas in A medium beginning. Annie's remark seems out of no ware, but the fact that she thought it shows she doesn't think much of Eglamore. Eglamore is so bad, he must be sexist, apparently. It's actually a pretty brilliant way to show it on Tom's part. You know, I had never been able to figure that out before, but this makes perfect sense. Thanks for that insight. That's exactly what I meant! Only, the way you said it is much more coherent. Awesome! Your welcome.  I think any time any male said that a fight against a woman wouldn't be fair, any female listening would assume the male was being sexist. I don't think that has anything to do with Annie and Eglamore specifically. So that statement was not surprising to you at all? cause it sure surprised me. Nothing wrong with seeing things differently, but sociological discussions are good too. Even if ultimately neither person is shaken from their views, its good to look at things from a different perspective. I'd be interested in a blow by blow account, especially cause it seems so clear to me. But whatever, it's up to you. I agree with what you said about art and literature though. Literature stands on it's own. The writer's view only matters so far as what he will publish in the future. Everything else is up to the reader. I think this is an important point you're making. I would interpret it as a change in their relationship in this scene. I would say that Annie is not just curious about Jones' explanation in 479, but also quite surprised. She's saying "Excuse me?" when Jones interrupts her and changes the subject. It changes her view of him in the next few pages. I think you're quite right that in the rest of the scene they behave in a much more civil fashion. I see it as an improvement in their previously strained relationship, rather casting doubt that the tension ever existed. Interesting theory. And one that may well be testable within the current chapter. If Annie and Eglamore continue to behave curlty toward each other, then there probably hasn't been much change. If on the other hand they don't avoid talking to each other, then you're probably right. |
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Post by fidodo on Aug 13, 2009 4:26:04 GMT
HAR HAR MONKEYFACE! Annie doesn't like the Egglamator because he's trying so hard to be her surrogate father, and she's been conditioned to distrust father figures. The more he tries, the more she hates. If he weren't such a cheesy guy, it wouldn't be funny, it'd just be sad. Also, she's gotta be heading into the teens anytime now so of course she hates smothering authority figures. That's what I think, although, I think it's less a distrust of father figures (since it seems she wants one in Anthony.) It's probably offsetting that some strange adult you thought was a teacher is trying to get close to you and that would be kinda creepy. Moreover, I think Annie is rejecting Eglamore as a replacement father because she wants the real thing, and Eggs is being aggressive about it because he doesn't like her real father. I think that's more than enough to make a preteen girl dislike someone. |
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Post by nonfactor on Aug 13, 2009 5:15:49 GMT
I could also go point by point with King Mir's response above and explain exactly why I see the exact same scenes differently, and go into a long sociological discussion, but in the end people's opinions are their opinions, and they aren't going to change. I think that's unnecessarily dismissive. King Mir made a pretty good argument in favor of there being a problem between Eglamore and Antimony. He specifically quoted the panel where Eglamore admits that a problem exists. I don't see how it's possible to continue to believe that the two have a peachy relationship despite the evidence. When I read your post I found myself agreeing. Sure, it might have seemed as though a problem existed, but really everything cuold be explained away. Once King Mir reminded me of the "problem with me" panel it seemed pretty hard to keep denying the obvious. |
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Post by Casey on Aug 13, 2009 7:03:04 GMT
I had had a longer response here, but knowing my luck here, I would somehow get blamed for your stoking the fires, so I'm not going to take that chance.
But do not call me dismissive. I have gone well out of my way to turn this conversation into one where people can respectfully hold differing opinions and be okay with that. I think that the statement "I don't see how it's possible to continue to believe that [...] despite the evidence" is the most dismissive thing I've read in this thread yet. You're practically saying "You are wrong, and you are irrational too". So don't go there and don't bait people into arguing with you.
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Post by Tom Siddell on Aug 13, 2009 8:52:24 GMT
knowing my luck here, I would somehow get blamed You got picked up on something once but you've brought it up in almost every post you've made since then. |
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jon77
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Post by jon77 on Aug 13, 2009 9:34:59 GMT
It is my opinion that all of this analysis of ... *LOTS OF TEXT* ... You're all welcome to your opinions and I'm just stating mine. Nice compilation of times when they seem to get along from chapter 20. However, this, as Eglamore calls it, "problem with him" has been going on longer. In Two Strange Girls, we see the first time Annie seems to avoid him. By itself this could be shrugged off for various reason, but it can also be seen as the beginning of showing dislike. In Questions and answers, Annie expresses how she doesn't think much of his advice on getting caught, or being compared to her mother. Here the animosity is clear. On the next page, Eglamore himself says that Annie apparently has an ongoing animosity towards him. She doesn't deny it, of do anything to suggest she doesn't. Therefore it must be true. Saying something outright like this is perhaps less creative then having more stories that show her attitude, but it is nevertheless an effective way to get the point across. A week for Kat contains a scene where annie and Eglamore display a terse attitude toward each other. I don't see another way of looking at that scene. The quick glance, and curt responses as they look away. Fangs of summer time, shows the two making faces at each other.Then there's the faux pas in A medium beginning. Annie's remark seems out of no ware, but the fact that she thought it shows she doesn't think much of Eglamore. Eglamore is so bad, he must be sexist, apparently. It's actually a pretty brilliant way to show it on Tom's part. Compared to all that the scenes where they get along are few. As idonotlikepeas points out, they aren't exactly totally friendly in coyote stories. She lets him put a hand on her shoulder, but not to change her tie. She does make a fool of Yesngrin, but not for Eglamore's sake. No, I think all these pages and this one make it pretty clear that she has "some kind of problem with him". The question is, exactly what is the cause? I agree with almost everything you've said here, with two small exceptions: I think Eglamore's face here is at the news that Annie has a blinker stone, which we later learn are traditionally given between couples. He thinks she's got a boyfriend. Annie's faces are because she think she might get in trouble for the bridge-crossing incident. As for the forest scene, I think there is a bit of a change in her attitude after Jones tells her that Eglamore is worried for her. They're together for a dozen panels, and we don't see any behavior like in #240. |
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jon77
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Post by jon77 on Aug 13, 2009 9:39:48 GMT
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Post by Mezzaphor on Aug 13, 2009 22:15:49 GMT
Plus there could actually be a hint of jealousy there too. Heh. Something that I didn't notice until someone on the TV Tropes forum pointed it out: in "Questions and Answers", just before stepping into Egger's office, Annie stops to straighten her hair. Maybe this was just Annie's way of mentally composing herself... or maybe she wanted to look nice for Mr Eglamore. |
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Post by Per on Aug 13, 2009 22:56:10 GMT
The sign on his door reads "Mr", not "Sir". Is this as indication that the sign is older than his knighthood? You're no longer a "mister" once you become a "sir", right?
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Post by Jiminiminy on Aug 13, 2009 23:11:28 GMT
Actually, I think you can use either 'Sir' or 'Mister' if you're a knight, although most people use 'Sir' because it's friggin' awesome. If you get to be a lord than you're not a mister anymore though, maybe that's what you're thinking of.
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Post by Casey on Aug 13, 2009 23:21:15 GMT
Eglamore is only ever called "Sir" once in the comic, by Ysengrin, and mockingly at that.
However the name is from the folk song "Sir Eglamore" (see the Kate Rusby version online, or the awesome Rasselas version in the Art Thread).
Sir Young was a Sir too, and I'm willing to bet that Mr. Thorn was as well. It would not surprise me to learn that none of them went by Sir Whatever during their own lifetime though. Humility and all that.
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Post by Per on Aug 13, 2009 23:50:23 GMT
So if I walk up to Paul McCartney or someone and say "Why hello there Mr Paul McCartney", he won't slap me with a fish or something? My gut reaction is that it'd be a faux pas, but not being British I can't really know.
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Post by Casey on Aug 13, 2009 23:55:50 GMT
I don't know... were you responding to what I said? I was referring specifically to the Protectors of the Court, not to anyone who has been knighted. No I would imagine that it would be a significant faux pas to not call a real world knight "Sir" (though, to be honest, if I were ever face to face with Paul McCartney, the best I could probably do would be to stammer incoherently...)
I'm basing my conclusion on the fact that both Mr. Thorn and Mr. Eglamore did not go by "Sir" during their lifetime. In Sir Young's case, we have no idea if he used it while he was alive, and in Mr. Thorn's case, we don't know if he were ever knighted (it's a conjecture) so all in all the idea of mine doesn't really add up to much.
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Post by King Mir on Aug 14, 2009 1:43:13 GMT
Plus there could actually be a hint of jealousy there too. Heh. Something that I didn't notice until someone on the TV Tropes forum pointed it out: in "Questions and Answers", just before stepping into Egger's office, Annie stops to straighten her hair. Maybe this was just Annie's way of mentally composing herself... or maybe she wanted to look nice for Mr Eglamore. When I first noticed that I that she was indeed trying to look nice or dignified for Mr Eglamore. But it later occurred to me that nerves were a simpler explanation. |
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Post by warrl on Aug 14, 2009 8:13:35 GMT
Perhaps a decision was made that the teacher would be "Mr. Eglamore" to be on a more appropriately even standing with his peers in that profession. (I assume he wasn't knighted for valor on the field of cricket.)
The dragonslayer, on the other hand, could be "Sir James Eglamore" - that's probably more on an even standing with his peers in THAT profession (if there are any other dragonslayers).
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Aug 14, 2009 14:23:07 GMT
So if I walk up to Paul McCartney or someone and say "Why hello there Mr Paul McCartney", he won't slap me with a fish or something? My gut reaction is that it'd be a faux pas, but not being British I can't really know. We can't be totally certain that the rules in the GC universe are the same as ours, but I do know that people with titles omit them for certain purposes. (Film credits, for instance; Anthony Hopkins is generally just credited as that, not Sir Anthony Hopkins.) It's reasonable to assume that the Court would use the untitled version in certain contexts. Also, in formal usage, you wouldn't say "Sir Eglamore" in any event - Sir is only used formally with the first or first and last names ("Sir James Eglamore"). Although people speaking informally might well say "Sir Eglamore" (as happens from time to time in the strip), it wouldn't be likely to show up on anything official (like that person's office). (That said, I too am not British and therefore may have the wrong end of the stick on this.) |
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Post by Casey on Aug 14, 2009 15:30:30 GMT
Although people speaking informally might well say "Sir Eglamore" (as happens from time to time in the strip)[...] Keep in mind that as I mentioned above, that expression has only ever been used once within the comic, and it was by Ysengrin in Ch 20 in a mocking manner. |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 14, 2009 17:04:30 GMT
That's what I think, although, I think it's less a distrust of father figures (since it seems she wants one in Anthony.) It's probably offsetting that some strange adult you thought was a teacher is trying to get close to you and that would be kinda creepy. Moreover, I think Annie is rejecting Eglamore as a replacement father because she wants the real thing, and Eggs is being aggressive about it because he doesn't like her real father. The larger problem is, it looks like his perception of Annie floats somewhere between "reflection of her mother", "his would-be daughter", "student" and "aspiring Medium". If he has no clear idea what exactly he tries to achieve, no wonder relations are so undefined. I think any time any male said that a fight against a woman wouldn't be fair, any female listening would assume the male was being sexist. Fortunately, not everyone is American feminist. Well, it really depends on species.  It just illustrates how it's completely possible for two people to look upon the exact same thing and see it in totally different ways. No opinion is any more or less "right" than another's opinion. That's why they're opi... Wait, isn't here a little contradiction with the first part? knowing my luck here, I would somehow get blamed You got picked up on something once but you've brought it up in almost every post you've made since then. You know, there was an old anecdote... Masochist> Hit me! Hit me! Sadist> (gleefully) I will not! I will not!  Ah, never mind. |
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Post by todd on Aug 14, 2009 22:20:30 GMT
Unfortunately, "Sir Eglamore"-type errors are as long-lasting as death and taxes. (And might be encouraged by the original Eglamore being one of those one-name knights, like the members of King Arthur's Round Table.)
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 15, 2009 18:04:02 GMT
on this page, Ysengrin tries to insult and deride Eglamore for being a page to a little girl. Annie however responds by coming to Eglamore's defense, going on the offensive against General Ysengrin, by ordering him herself. If Annie were truly resentful or angry at Eglamore, she wouldn't have bothered to help him save face. Why not? At this time he was in his legitimate role. Ysengrin stepped over the line, immediate and exact " mowing down to size" ensued. When Eglamore made a similar mistake with her, she did the same favour to him, in more elaborate form. One minute he's so self-righteous, the next he looks like aggressive, ineffectual, silly jerk and is being calmly deflated by a little girl. He should have remembered she's also Carver, indeed... ;D |
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