Tarot Project - Minor Arcana

[Ulysses]

Big List These are all the current proposals for the Minor Arcana.

Ace of Cups - Tic-Toc; Annie
Two of Cups - Parley/Smitty; Surma/Eglamore; Willy/Janet; John/Margo; Zimmy/Gamma.
Three of Cups - Coyote, Ysengrin and Rey; 3 friends from Ties; (Somnium)
Four of Cups - ? under the Cherry Tree
Five of Cups - Zimmy
Six of Cups - Young Donny and Anja
Seven of Cups - See here
Eight of Cups - Anthony
Nine of Cups - Coyote
Ten of Cups - Donny and Anja, (Annie and Kat?).
Page of Cups - John Sullivan
Knight of Cups - Jack
Queen of Cups - Surma
King of Cups - Dr Disaster; Coyote

Ace of Gears - Court/Forest; Kat (Somnium)
Two of Gears - Winsbury
Three of Gears - Eglamore, Donny and Anja
Four of Gears - Headmaster
Five of Gears - Rey and Annie
Six of Gears - Jones, Annie and ?
Seven of Gears - Bob the Gardener
Eight of Gears - Diego; Donny; Kat; Eglamore
Nine of Gears - Surma; Jones; Annie
Ten of Gears - Headmaster, Eglamore and Surma
Page of Gears - Annie; Smitty
Knight of Gears - Donny
Queen of Gears - Anja
King of Gears - Ysengrin; Headmaster

Ace of Staves - Wooden arm in hill (Spritznar)
Two of Staves - Deigo
Three of Staves - Aly (?)
Four of Staves - Court and Forest
Five of Staves - Students training
Six of Staves - Ysengrin and creatures
Seven of Staves - Eglamore
Eight of Staves - Court and Forest
Nine of Staves - Smitty (Somnium)
Ten of Staves - Anthony
Page of Staves - Annie
Knight of Staves - Kat
Queen of Staves - Anja
King of Staves - Eglamore; Donny; Ysengrin

Ace of Swords - Eglamore's glowing or massive sword
Two of Swords - Parley
Three of Swords - ?
Four of Swords - S1 (Somnium)
Five of Swords - Parley and Smitty
Six of Swords - Muut
Seven of Swords - Smitty (?)
Eight of Swords - Jeanne; Annie; Rey
Nine of Swords - Jack
Ten of Swords - Bullbot (Spritznar)
Page of Swords - Parley
Knight of Swords - Thorn (on an Orjak?); Eglamore
Queen of Swords - Jones
King of Swords - Donny; Eglamore; Thorn


Please donate more ideas, either in this thread or by PM.

[nikita]

Start the discussion with a summary of your (and maybe other's) thoughts.

[Ulysses]

That sounds like a good idea.

There are only a couple of overarching ideas; most cards will have to be figured out on a case by case basis, however:
Pages should probably be children or teenagers. There are lots of those in the story, so this shouldn't be a problem.
I found it difficult to think of characters to be Knights other than Eglamore or Thorn, so a bit of thought is going to have to go into the Knights.
Kings and Queens are easier to characterise, but there's a danger that they will end up looking a lot like the Emperor, Empress, High Priestess etc. cards. As they say, however, God is in the details, and little things such as costume decorations will make all the difference if people can manage them.

Another larger themed idea I had was regarding the Coins, or Pentacles, suit. The Pentacle design on the coins in the cards may be suitably occult but it's not very relavent to GKC, so I suggest using the Bismuth symbol, or possibly any other symbol found in the comic so long as it matches the look/meaning of the card. I don't think the Coin cards need to have a standardised symbol on the coins such as in the real decks.

Plus, rather than unnecessarily lengthen the above list I'll put my idea for the Seven of Cups here and link it in the list:

Main figure - Annie
Head - Kat
Shrouded figure - Jeanne (?)
Snake - Rey.
Castle - Part of the Court
Treasure - The Seed Bismuth (?)
Laurel wreath - The flowers that Jones gave to everyone (?)
Dragon - A Rogat Orjak.

Disclaimer: Most of my ideas are based on the Rider-Waite deck. Just so you know.

[King Mir]

I think some thought should be given to adjusting the theme of suits to the themes of Gunnerkrigg court.

One of the biggest themes of Gunnerkrigg is science/tech vs nature/eather. I suggest using the suit of coins, which wiki says is traditionally associated with merchants, to be associated with scientists. Instead of coins, use gears (Yes I did read Ulysses post before posting this, so the idea is not entirely mine). I think Suits of wands would fit the Forrest best, especially if the stick for wands are always live wood.

For the other 2 suits, I suggest theme of conflict/division vs peace/coexistence, which is also a major theme of the comic. This theme is particularly fitting, because it is perpendicular to the symmetry between the court and the woods. Swords would represent the conflict and the division of the court and the wood (as they are used on this page!), while cups would represent peace and coexistence.

Unfortunately, this division is somewhat at odds with the traditional mapping of elements, and with the first treatise.

[Casey]

I've got no stake in this project and I don't know squat about your occulty decks, but...

Why don't you do Gears, with pictures of technological scenes from the comic; Trees (clubs) with forest scenes: Hearts with scenes from the multitude of love stories within the comic; and finally Swords having images with swords (Eglamore's swords, the training scenes, Mr. Thorn, etc)

If you wanted to make it GC themed that is.

[nikita]

updated

Here is a table from the german wikipedia that might be useful to find themes for the four suits:

Rider-Waite	alternative	What we use	Element	Tarot of Sources	Typical Meaning
Wand	Stick	Staves	Fire	Nature	Will, Force, Intuition
Chalice	Cup, Chauldron	Cups	Water	Soul/Spirit	Emotion, Instinct
Sword	Dagger, Knife	Swords	Air	Blood	Thinking, Intellect
Coin	Pentacle, Disk	Gears	Earth	Jewlery	Matter

(I'm not sure about a couple of the translations but they should be good enough to work with)

My thoughts

Wands	Etherics/Magic/Forest
Cups	Etheric science and our mediums
Swords	Science/Court
Earth	?

[pepoluan]

My suggestion:

Chalice (in lieu of Cups)	Forest
Stick (in lieu of Wand)	Forest
Gears (in lieu of Coins/Discs)	Court
Swords	Court

This goes hand-in-hand with what Nikita posted, i.e.:
- Intuition, Instinct == definitely nature-based
- Intellect, Matter == definitely science-based

As to who shall be featured, here are some suggestions:

	Chalice	Stick	Gears	Swords
Ace	Annie		Kat
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
Page			Smitty	Parley
Knight			Donald	Eglamore
Queen			Anja	Jones
King	Coyote	Ysengrin	Headmaster	Thorn

That table is by no means complete... but already I'm running out of Gillitie characters trying to fill it.

On the other hand, Chalice characters may also be filled with Psychopomps. We have at least 4 whom we know the names of, and there are also several other unnamed psychopomps in this page.

[Ulysses]

Jul 28, 2009 12:04:11 GMT nikita said:

My thoughts

Wands	Etherics/Magic/Forest
Cups	Etheric science and our mediums
Swords	Science/Court
Earth	?

To me, while Wands are definitely etheric I think Cups are more likely to be 'science' while Coins represent the mediums and psychopomps (coins are used in transactions and agreements, similar to the diplomatic meetings between mediums). However if the Coin suit is changed to the Gear suit, as has been suggested, then Gears will definitely represent science and I'd be happy for Cups to revert back to mediums/etheric science.

Jul 29, 2009 14:04:35 GMT pepoluan said:

Chalice (in lieu of Cups)	Forest
Stick (in lieu of Wand)	Forest
Gears (in lieu of Coins/Discs)	Court
Swords	Court

This goes hand-in-hand with what Nikita posted, i.e.:
- Intuition, Instinct == definitely nature-based
- Intellect, Matter == definitely science-based

While Gears instead of Coins is a valid change which we should definitely think about, changing Cups to Chalices is a little redundant as they are basically the same thing. I also feel that Sticks instead of Wands sounds too clumsy, and possibly altered for the sake of alteration.

I think we're almost reaching a consensus on changing Coins to Gears. Is there anyone who would rather stick with Coins?

[King Mir]

I don't think it really matters what we call the suits, so long as we agree on what each one looks like. So chalice vs. Cups and Sticks vs. wands aren't really much cause for discussion. You can call the suits Gears(or Gold, for coins), gladius, goblets, and growth for alliteration's sake, and it wouldn't matter.

[Casey]

Alliteration. *grin*

[pepoluan]

In my opinion, a stick is more fitting than a wand. This is GC, not Harry Potter. Ever see a Gillitie character waving a wand? Replace it with a larger stick (walking stick, command stick, anything).

As to chalice, I thought chalices are made out of crystal, rendering them more etheric and solemn, while cups are made of metal, making them more technical. I could be wrong, though.

[Fuin]

chalice [chal-liss]
Noun
1. a drinking cup or goblet
2. a gold or silver goblet containing the wine at communion

So it pretty much is the same thing, pepoluan.

[pepoluan]

Jul 30, 2009 13:57:06 GMT Fuin said:

chalice [chal-liss]
Noun
1. a drinking cup or goblet
2. a gold or silver goblet containing the wine at communion

So it pretty much is the same thing, pepoluan.

Ahaha... I see. Cups shall it be then (simpler typing heheh)

[pepoluan]

By the way, let me add this URL:

www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/

It's a page containing links to lots and lots of Tarot deck designs.

To get started, perhaps one can start on their "Top Ten Tarot" page:

www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/topten.shtml

[King Mir]

Jul 30, 2009 3:51:43 GMT Casey said:

Alliteration. *grin*

For an better fit one can say
"Cogs, Cups, Clubs, and Cutlasses".

;D

[fuzzysocks]

Oh my ^_^; this has seem to have gotten rather intense.

[spritznar]

i think the problem we're running into with the minor arcana is that they're themed, which requires a lot more organization and consensus to coordinate; as opposed to the major arcana which we could just throw together individually.

i'd probably be interested in trying one or two of the minor arcana but i'm not sure where to start...

has anyone actually started any minor arcana yet?

[King Mir]

Are there any other suggestions for suit themes? If nobody poses another soon, then we should open a poll.

Before that it would be nice if we can make nikita suggestion into a complete one. His suggestions seemed to imply some difference between cups and wands, but no difference between swords and earth has been suggested that is compatible with his other match ups.

[spritznar]

could we perhaps use beakers for cups?

also, for the coins/pentacles suit i vote gears with the bismuth sign in the center

[spritznar]

... ace of wands?

i can change the text if we decide to call them sticks or staves or something...
i figured the sticks/wands were safe to start with since they don't seem to be in dispute

if someone else was working on this one, sorry. feel free to make a better one


also, photobucket is a pain in my butt

[King Mir]

A summery of current theme suggestions follows. Don't worry about the names of the suits, we can settle that later.

Presenter	Batons	Gears	Chalices	Swords
Original	Will, Force, Intuition	Matter**	Emotion, Instinct	Thinking, Intellect
King Mir	nature/eather	science/tech	peace/coexistence	conflict/division
Casey	forest scenes	technological scenes	love stories*	images with swords
nikita	Etherics/Magic/Forest	?Earth?	Etheric science and our mediums	Science/Court
pepoluan	Forest	Court	Forest	Court
Ulysses	etheric	mediums and psychopomps**	Science	Science/Court
Ulysses	etheric	science	mediums/etheric science	Science/Court

*use hearts instead of chalices.
** keep as coins

Also, people seem to be using medium to mean the Gunnerkrigg equivalent of a wizard. Can we refrain from this. The term medium, aside from being the court's official title, has been used only once in the comic, and it is far from clear what Mort imaged a medium to be. As a court position, the etheric connection, though desirable, seems secondary to the negotiating role.

[spritznar]

ace of wands with fancy border...

[Jiminiminy]

Oh ho, we're starting production now are we? I shall dredge the scanner out of its hidey-hole just for this occasion.

[Ulysses]

Looks like! I'll just link to your Ace of Wands from the top post, Spritznar. People should feel free to do their own though, if they like.

[pepoluan]

Aug 16, 2009 3:18:28 GMT spritznar said:

ace of wands with fancy border...

oh.my.god

That *is* nice!

Okay, now let's see if I can make an ace of gears...

[spritznar]

ten of swords...

i attempted charcoal which i don't have much experience with but i think it turned out ok *shrug* except towards the end it gets a little fuzzy cause my pencil was dull and i couldn't find a sharpener

i gotta tell you though, that monstrosity was a pain to draw even once (and a cheap imitation at that); i don't know how tom did it for a quarter of a chapter

[Ulysses]

Linked in the top post.

You are a prolific artist, Spritznar. Keep up this rate and there'll be none left for anyone else
Digging the cutlasses, by the way. Do you often have pirates on the brain?

I'm thinking we should some sort of poll going in order to sort out forever the matter of what we're calling the suits. Personally I don't mind what suits people want to use, but as Spritznar pointed out to me, if we leave it too fluid we'll end up with 10 suits that don't symbolise anything and there will be mass confusion and rioting in the streets (possibly). So, shall I set up a poll here?

[Casey]

Spritznar I thought that was a very clever picture. It reminded me of this scene, which I'm pretty sure was your intention!

P.S. Ulysses, not cutlasses, Estoques de Toros! (notes on this page)

[spritznar]

Aug 17, 2009 22:57:45 GMT Ulysses said:

You are a prolific artist, Spritznar. Keep up this rate and there'll be none left for anyone else

don't worry, i'll run out of steam in about a week, and did you notice i avoid any cards that require drawing people? there'll be plenty left for everyone else

[pepoluan]

Aug 17, 2009 22:57:45 GMT Ulysses said:

I'm thinking we should some sort of poll going in order to sort out forever the matter of what we're calling the suits. Personally I don't mind what suits people want to use, but as Spritznar pointed out to me, if we leave it too fluid we'll end up with 10 suits that don't symbolise anything and there will be mass confusion and rioting in the streets (possibly). So, shall I set up a poll here?

I agree with a poll. But how? I mean, how will you put down the options?