cantabile
New Member
Never thought I'd be back on a forum...
Posts: 49
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Post by cantabile on Jul 22, 2009 16:13:52 GMT
Hm, I wonder if Jack resents Annie since she appears to have fully recovered from Zimmingam. Either way, I doubt his feelings towards Zimmy are romantic. Maybe they fall on the side of revenge?
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Post by pepoluan on Jul 22, 2009 16:17:47 GMT
Tom is the master of facial expressions. All of Annie's echoed what I was feeling at the same time Panel 3: Oh ho, he likes Kat. Panel 5: Wait...does he like Zimmy? What the... Panel 8: Ok, what's going on? You're a little creepy now. Granted in panel 5 her face is blank, but it still gives off 'dubbya tee eff' vibes. Options now are: 1. ZimCity gave Jack the willies and he's having a hard time recovering. 2. Part of Jack got stuck in ZimCity. 3. Jack's becoming like Zimmy (linked to 2). I'm gonna go with 1. at the moment, just because there's no evidence to suggest the other two. I don't think a short stroll in nightmarish ZimCity is enough to twist Jack's personality like that -- from a likable easygoing person he was prior to the Power Station incident, to a scheming-angsty-ragefull person that he is now. After all, why would he suddenly grab Zimmy in page [471]? I tend toward #2, based on some thoughts: 1. Zimmy's comment ("sucks to be you, mate") -- because Zimmy might know what's gonna happen 2. Gamma's reaction (panel 5 of [471] -- it's like she's shocked that Jack was in ZimCity and she did not realize it) 3. There's a possibility that to properly exit ZimCity, one needs Gamma's nearby presence *inside* ZimCity. The previous pages only showed Annie, Zimmy, and faux-Kat, with Jack nowhere to be seen Now, whatever part of Jack left in Zimmy's mind (zim!Jack) is sending out nightmarish thoughts to real!Jack. Of course, I might well be wrong, but that's my wager. Come Friday, let's see if I got the cookies Hm, I wonder if Jack resents Annie since she appears to have fully recovered from Zimmingam. Either way, I doubt his feelings towards Zimmy are romantic. Maybe they fall on the side of revenge? I don't think Jack resents Annie. I'm not sure Jack realized that Annie was in ZimCity, too. .
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rageboy
Junior Member
just like real cows! only with lasers.
Posts: 91
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Post by rageboy on Jul 22, 2009 16:59:41 GMT
I like this pep; it's the most feasible for me
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Post by Casey on Jul 22, 2009 17:05:57 GMT
It has never been my interpretation that the nightmare world (I refuse to give it a cutesy name, because that diminishes the significance of how horrible it is) was an actual PLACE that people get "teleported" to. I have always understood the horror that surrounds Zimmy to be a creation of her own mind. Zimmy's etheric power is to manifest her own horrible visions.
So Annie and Jack were not teleported off to some real, alternate plane of existence where someone could be left behind. They were sucked into Zimmy's own imagination. Gamma's psychic presence (and to a lesser degree, Annie's) allow Zimmy to keep her visions under control, by keeping her mind anchored in reality.
My point here is that once Zimmy "found" Gamma in her imagination, basically making her way through her own horrible thoughts until she reconnected with Gamma's psychic presence in her mind, that connection with Gamma ended the nightmare, ejecting Annie and Jack from her imagination. If the nightmare ends for Zimmy, then it therefore must end for everyone in it. You can't be "left" in Zimmy's imaginings if she's not imagining them anymore.
I'm pretty sure that Jack is just deeply disturbed and haunted by the memory of what he saw there. This effect was instantly noticeable in Ch 19. Take my word for it, it is possible to experience something so horrible that your own memory of it is unshakable and keeps you up at night and changes your entire state of mind. It is still possible that whatever is wrong with Zimmy has passed on to Jack and he is becoming like her--this is Gunnerkrigg Court, so something like that is always possible--I'm just saying it isn't -necessary- that something like that happened in order for Jack to be as messed up as he is.
In other words, I disagree with pepo's statement "I don't think a short stroll in nightmarish ZimCity is enough to twist Jack's personality like that -- from a likable easygoing person he was prior to the Power Station incident, to a scheming-angsty-ragefull person that he is now."
These sound like the words of someone who has never lived through something life-changingly horrible.
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Post by Rasselas on Jul 22, 2009 17:38:20 GMT
There's another thing to consider. Jack was not standing close to Gamma when it happened. That's why it might've been worse for him, and why Gamma didn't know he got blipped too.
Hmm, interesting point you have there, Casey. For me, such a moment was when I first saw a real ghost. Afterwards, we basically searched the whole building looking for a rational explanation. I even asked my mom to explain (she did not even witness the event, so you can imagine how puny I felt). I was terrified, but not of the ghost itself. I was terrified of the paradigm shift it meant for my worldview. It's like the most basic fear that babies have, fear of the ground suddenly disappearing underneath them.
However, for the sake of story narrative, I'd suspect there was something more major than just the blip itself. It would not make much sense that Jack is so troubled after months have passed, if all that happened to him was no different than Annie's experience in the Zimmy world.
Edit: Okay, I see one flaw in this. Jack was thrown into this with no explanation and no introduction whatsoever, while Annie has had her background, her previous experiences with Zimmy and Zimmy herself as a guide. Also, Kat, even though she was fake, she must've been comforting.
Still, even with all this, Jack must've realized that strange things happen at the Court, so he wouldn't have been unprepared. Also, he's an adventurous type who goes out exploring on his own. I'd say something big happened there.
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Post by Ulysses on Jul 22, 2009 17:46:30 GMT
However, for the sake of story narrative, I'd suspect there was something more major than just the blip itself. It would not make much sense that Jack is so troubled after months have passed, if all that happened to him was no different than Annie's experience in the Zimmy world. Bear in mind that as far as we know Jack can't pop the Faceless Ones out of existence, so maybe he got mobbed by a bunch of Scribble-Faced guys. I also like the idea that Jack was taunted psychologically in there, not just "aah, scary things". That would definitely have a lasting effect, although from what we've seen of Zimmingham it just appears to be freaky stuff rather than mind-games. Edit: OH MAN what if Jack was a Faceless, or similar, in Zimmy's world? Zimmy said it can be hard to tell the difference between real people and the Faceless, which opens the possibility that some real people look like a Faceless in that world. Then that might mean that Annie GOPed him while they were walking around. That's bound to scramble your brains a bit.
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Post by Rasselas on Jul 22, 2009 17:51:36 GMT
True, Ulysses.
I wonder why Jack didn't look for Annie sooner.
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Post by fuzzyone on Jul 22, 2009 18:29:21 GMT
To touch on Something Rasselas said:
As far as we know, this was the first TRULY Etheric moment that Jack had. Things like that can have a profound effect, and can even leave you questioning your own sanity. Like Rasselas said, it was a paradigm shift. It changed his entire perception of things. Annie was much less affected, as she's been dealing with the Etheric as long as she can remember. Strange things seem to follow her wherever she goes. BirmingHell was almost a reaction of "Oh, it must be Tuesday." to her.
For Jack, I imagine there was a great deal of time spent just coming to grips, as best he could, with what he saw there. Put yourself in his shoes. You look around, and find yourself instead of on a rooftop with friendly faces, in a strange, twisted city full of bugs, buildings, and things with NO faces, just chaotic swirls of black SOMETHING behaving like something between a liquid and a gas where a face should be. And hidden amongst Birminghell's inhabitants are the occasional ones with REAL faces... We don't know what Jack saw there, or how he dealt with it. All we saw was him grab onto Zimmy's arm, with an expression that quite clearly showed he knew SHE was the source of it, and he wanted to know just what the HELL just happened... And all he gets is 'Sucks to be you.'
I imagine it was several days before he slept properly, if he does yet. We also don't really know how long ago the Power Station happened. I imagine it's been at least a couple weeks. For us, it's been weeks, Months... For him, it may be easier measured in DAYS since this happened. This experience is probably still fresh in his mind, and this may be the closest he's been to normal since he woke up the morning of the Power Station event.
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Post by Rasselas on Jul 22, 2009 19:01:12 GMT
Another thing to bear in mind here is why he was blipped in the first place? We know that Zimmy and Gamma go together, we know that Annie is into it at least somewhat, but what's Jack's untapped power?
Hehe, it'd be twisty if he ended up being chosen as the official Court Medium.
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man
New Member
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Post by man on Jul 22, 2009 19:13:47 GMT
i think maybe jack just has the hots 4 zimmy )))
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Post by hmmyesquite on Jul 22, 2009 19:51:11 GMT
Another thing to bear in mind here is why he was blipped in the first place? We know that Zimmy and Gamma go together, we know that Annie is into it at least somewhat, but what's Jack's untapped power? Hehe, it'd be twisty if he ended up being chosen as the official Court Medium. What do yall think will happen if Annie isn't picked for Court Medium? She can't live by cheating off of Kat forever... or can she?
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Post by Casey on Jul 22, 2009 19:56:19 GMT
Another thing to bear in mind here is why he was blipped in the first place? The second or third time that I read through the whole comic (what, doesn't everyone do this?) I noticed that Jack, Annie, and Kat were standing together, and it was Jack, Annie, and pseudo-Kat that were inside the nightmare. Kat may have no sensitivity to the etheric (in fact, her world-view might specifically -protect- her from being pulled in) but I thought that it might be that a latent etheric propensity in Jack, combined with his physical proximity to Annie in the real world, might explain why he was pulled in when Annie was. Since Annie was nowhere near Zimmy or Gamma either, I'm left to conclude that Annie was the conduit for Jack's being pulled in.
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Post by Azeltir on Jul 22, 2009 19:59:23 GMT
I really can't believe that people still think that nothing's wrong with Jack. Even now.
I doubt he'll go "dark side" - evil, in this comic, is something we've yet to see (which is a wonderful decision). But, clearly, he's not all right, and his behavior is likely to reflect that. I can't wait to see where it goes - but I bet Friday's gonna have a bombshell for us.
Ben
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Post by lingus on Jul 22, 2009 20:21:50 GMT
I wanted to point one thing out: It may just be the art style, but notice how Jack's eyes now look very similar to Zimmy's? Not completely, but around the edges they have that same blackness to them. Also the fact that his skin looks very palid and sweaty like Zimmy's always does. I wonder if maybe he's going through some kind of transformation into what Zimmy is? Maybe it's a longshot, but I thought I'd point it out. I know no one saw this way back when since no one commented on it, but I pretty much noticed this right after the whole Zimmy world thing. The quote above is from the post related to that comic. I'm sure no one really cares... but w/e.
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Post by Casey on Jul 22, 2009 20:27:20 GMT
Yeah a lot of us saw it way back then lingus. And we asked Tom about it, and he said it just meant they were tired / worn out.
I'll find the relevant quote in the Questions to Tom if you need me to.
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Post by fidodo on Jul 22, 2009 20:40:38 GMT
I don't think a short stroll in nightmarish ZimCity is enough to twist Jack's personality like that -- from a likable easygoing person he was prior to the Power Station incident, to a scheming-angsty-ragefull person that he is now. I don't see any of those traits other than the scheming aspect, which is due to him being scheming of course. Really, he seems pretty consistent with how I would be if I were sleep deprived. Probably talking fast, over and underacting, having a hard time focusing, acting weird and probably putting off a creepy vibe because you're off the ball. I'd probably be acting like weirder that Jack if I were really sleep deprived.
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Post by EverEndingStory on Jul 22, 2009 20:44:12 GMT
My brother had an interesting idea- that Jack's experience in ZimCity* has turned him against Chester in a big way, and he's going to end up being like the guy Eglamore sucker-punched in Ties, eventually leading to a more general anti-etheric sentiment in the Court. *Officially the best name for Zimmy's world (I didn't make it up) This seems quite possible, and I think it would be fascinating if they explored that prejudice more. I always liked Jack and I would hate for him to be the one to initiate it, but I think it is possible and that story would have great potential for character development. penguinfactory, your post actually sparked a small theory in my head that, maybe, Jack might have a larger part to play in the GunnerKrigg story, or at least the second book/year, than most might think. He won't like the kid Eglamore hit as much as he will be like General Ysengrin. Bare with me for a second. So far, GKC has done something few stories have been able to do: it has stood high and mighty without an antagonist. But even if there is no main antagonist, an antagonist, a character that challenges and opposes Annie, will probably come up eventually, right? Annie is a medium, potentially the Medium, and it seems like the story is shaping up to be structured around Annie being able to strike a balance between the scientific and etheric. Thus, her foes will be those who wish to destroy that balance. So far, Ysengrin is the most antagonistic character, being someone who shows outright hatred to the scientific-human world (ironic because he uses a humanoid body). Might he be an antagonist? I don't know. Despite his characteristic qualities, he is much too proudly submissive to the pleasant Coyote. But still, doesn't it make you think? And if the etheric-side has a character who possess an outright threat to the opposite side, shouldn't the scientific-side have one too? Could his traumatic experience inside Zimmy's mind have turned him against the etheric-branch? Definitely, its in fact very likely. But what could possibly make him similar to Ysengrin? What could possibly make him a threat? What could possibly keep him from being sucker-punched by Kat the way the other kid was sucker-punched by Eglamore? Doesn't anybody wonder why Jack got sucked into Zimmy's world in the first place? There were many kids there, but it was only Annie and Jack. For Annie, we could easily excuse her intrusion because she is heavily connected to the etheric-world. I personally think we can use the same excuse for Jack. He did say that he made it a habit of exploring Gunnerkrigg Court whenever he can. Stuff is bound to happen. Also, outside from this way-out-there theory of mine, I think he might be transforming into a Zimmy, or worse, into a nightmarish creature from her mind. Remember Kat's guy-friend that turned into a bird (can't remember his name), he had the dark circles around his eyes before he transformed. Although I actually thinking his and the faerie's transformations are metaphors for death and rebirth as in Hindu philosophy, because dead characters also have those dark circles around their eyes. So yeah, either Jack will die or he will turn into some kind of faceless beast. Fun!
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Post by wanderer on Jul 22, 2009 20:55:01 GMT
However, for the sake of story narrative, I'd suspect there was something more major than just the blip itself. It would not make much sense that Jack is so troubled after months have passed, if all that happened to him was no different than Annie's experience in the Zimmy world. Edit: Okay, I see one flaw in this. Jack was thrown into this with no explanation and no introduction whatsoever, while Annie has had her background, her previous experiences with Zimmy and Zimmy herself as a guide. Also, Kat, even though she was fake, she must've been comforting. Still, even with all this, Jack must've realized that strange things happen at the Court, so he wouldn't have been unprepared. Also, he's an adventurous type who goes out exploring on his own. I'd say something big happened there. Some folks seem to have forgotten that the nobodies are not the only creepy things in Zimmy's world. Remember kids, the nobodies are NORMAL for Zimmy. She sees them all the time, even with Gamma around (until Gamma touches them and makes them go away, anyway), even when her powers haven't flipped out and trapped her in sunny Birmingham. They are not why she fears having her abilities go rogue on her. Her mind is hell. A swirling chaotic mass of nightmares which she cannot control. Jack could easily have found himself facing things far worse than Annie did.
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Post by bisected8 on Jul 22, 2009 21:20:32 GMT
Just a couple of random ideas;
1. Zimmy and Jack are related. Jack recognised what happened and that's why he wants to make contact with Zimmy again.
2. Maybe part of Zimmy's power is that she's simply insane. All the monsters she see's could just be hallucinations, with her actual power being some sort of psychokinesis or mind reading power. Thus Zim City is basically just her powers sharing the hallucination (Annie's cut appeared because either a) It reacts to supernatural stimuli or b) Zimmy instinctivly read her mind and found out about it without realising) and Gamma (and Annie) are just calming her down (or some other psychosomatic effect).
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Post by fidodo on Jul 22, 2009 21:35:33 GMT
Jeeze, poor Jack. He acts a little creepy and now we're painting him as some prime evil.
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Post by pepoluan on Jul 22, 2009 21:47:02 GMT
If we puuuuuuuuuuuulll far far back, as far back as the science fair (remember?), and Zimmy's entry -- whatever that is...
Someone in this forum once said that it is possible what Zimmy created under the microscope is "the essence of fear", i.e., anyone looking into the microscope will see whatever they fear most (which is why Zimmy is protesting vocally that whatever she made was not dangerous).
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Post by Saccha on Jul 22, 2009 22:15:21 GMT
Man, everyone is jumping on the whole "Jack is evil" thing pretty fast here.
I'm not the first person in saying this but I think he probably lived a life where everything was explainable and predictable, and what he saw severely unhinged him. Not only was he traumatized by what he saw, the fact that it could happen shattered his perception of reality and left him wondering if he was even sane.
I don't really think he's going to turn out to be evil, though I expect he wants to confront Zimmy or at least do some research as to WTF happened to him.
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Post by Casey on Jul 22, 2009 22:26:27 GMT
Wait, who exactly is saying Jack is evil? I think the majority of people are trying to emphasize that Jack is haunted by memories he can't shake.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Jul 22, 2009 22:34:05 GMT
I have always understood the horror that surrounds Zimmy to be a creation of her own mind. Zimmy's etheric power is to manifest her own horrible visions. I think this is correct. Zimmy is very clear that no motion is involved - she says in the chapter that they're all still just standing on that roof. (Jack would /think/ he was teleported somewhere, though, because he doesn't know how Zimmy's power works and she didn't stop to explain it to him.) That said, it's conceivable that something more did happen to Jack; after all, we're talking about magic here. If his mind has been trapped inside of hers (or in some way connected to hers), it's possible that he retains some kind of connection to them. What if he has started seeing some of the things she sees himself? I'm still on the "he's traumatized" team, though. Zimmy's visions are awful enough to cause that effect even if they don't eat your soul. If I suddenly, without warning, found myself in an extremely unpleasant city full of faceless people and was trapped there alone for, say, half an hour, I think I'd be having some trouble when I came back. (For one thing, I'd be worried that I might just randomly get sent there again at any time.) But maybe we'll find out in the next few comics!
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Post by pepoluan on Jul 23, 2009 3:14:13 GMT
Suddenly had a craving to read Chapter 11 all over again (because someone posted a link to Chapter 11 above) I think the following pages deserve a review: [188][192][193] <== tangential question: why the "she (Gamma) will be safe there". Safe from what? [194]I'm sure the above pages have a very significant meaning... but somehow it escaped my mind at this moment (I've stayed up all night and now already back in office)
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Post by fidodo on Jul 23, 2009 8:00:35 GMT
Maybe Zimmy is stuck in the land of the dead?
I thing the suits were just talking about them being safer by having a place to live.
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Post by bisected8 on Jul 23, 2009 15:46:31 GMT
Jeeze, poor Jack. He acts a little creepy and now we're painting him as some prime evil. We've all been there before...
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Post by jercos on Jul 23, 2009 22:26:16 GMT
Okay, here's a thought, what if Jack existed as a faceless thing in Zimmy's mind *as well as* entering ZimCity from outside, and he saw "himself" there? He could have merged with it somehow, or swapped places (so the real Jack might still be in Zimmy's head, while her concept of him walks around), or he could have simply seen "himself" gopped...
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Post by penguinfactory on Jul 23, 2009 22:35:20 GMT
There's a lot of imaginative speculation going on here, but frankly I think a lot of people are over-complicating things. Occam's razor, people- The nature of ZimCity seems more than enough to account for Jack being freaked out, especially if he was alone and had no one to explain what was going on. Remember, Annie had encountered this before. Jack had no idea it was about to happen. Imagine if you suddenly found yourself in the middle of some sort of nightmare world in the blink of an eye?
EDIT: Not sure if this has been pointed out yet, but re-reading the chapter I noticed that Annie looks exactly the same (actually worse) than Jack when she first exits Zimcity. Then Zimmy says something interesting- "it's only as real as you let it be." This would seem to indicate that Annie suffered the same negative effect as Jack, but for some reason she was able to let go of it while he isn't.
And actually, this got me thinking that the more outlandish theories might be right. What if Zimmy's abilities plague her because she's unable to make them not-real for whetever reason (some sort of personal trauma?). In this case, Jack might be gaining the same "ability" too, because whatever he enountered had some sort of personal element to it that's preventing him from being able to treat Zimcity as a fantasy world, and so it's taking him over in the same way that it's plaguing Zimmy.
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Post by Babble-jargon Bill on Jul 24, 2009 0:15:32 GMT
I'm curious how the chapter is going to deal with this new plot point, since by the looks of it will be wrapping up within a few pages. Are we going to learn or see what Jack wants from Zimmy, or is it going to be left with a cliffhanger?
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