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Post by Casey on Jul 10, 2009 19:59:11 GMT
Something I have been meaning to mention, and then Tood brought it up in today's on-page comments section. (I don't know if this is the same Todd as on the forums, but if so, speak up.) In the current chapter, Annie is being drawn differently than she was before. Todd's comment was this: Has anyone noticed (it's probably gotten lost amid all the attention that Parley and Smith receive; the quiet, subtle and understudied just can't compete with the wildly comical) that Tom's drawing Annie's nose differently? For a long time, we just saw its tip; now we see the bridge of her nose as well. I have been noticing the same thing for a few weeks now. At first I couldn't quite put my finger on what was different, but then I figured it out a while back. I have a few possible theories on this. 1) This is how Tom is showing us that Annie is growing up, looking different over time to show how she's aging. If this is the case, it is subtle and very well done. 2) You might have noticed that Surma was drawn with the bridge of her nose showing in Chapter 22. I'll go back in a second and check to see that's been true of earlier renderings of Surma. After drawing Ch 22, Tom might have decided that he wanted to make Annie look a little more like Surma looked at that age, so he started drawing that bridge with chapter 23. 3) It's possible, though not likely because Tom is super awesome and triple sweet, that having not drawn Annie since Ch 21, but having drawn Surma extensively in Ch 22, that he inadvertently carried over that feature from mother to daughter. Like I said, I sense that Tom doesn't make "mistakes" and this new inclusion is deliberate, but you never know. I believe the truth is somewhere in between #1 and #2. Clearly there have been previous developments in how the characters were rendered... perhaps we all just assumed that that was Tom's art maturing, but it brings up the possibility that he deliberately drew the comic in a simpler way when the characters were younger, just so that he could use the artistic style to reflect their age and maturity over time. Look at Janet, for example, from Ch 4's bonus page, compared with her appearance in Ch 19. Only a year has passed, but that's a year from being a 12 year old girl to being a 13 year old young teenager. Heck, even Parley, who is like 15-16 now, shows significant "development" over her rendering from half a year (in comic time) earlier. Artistic improvement over time? Or deliberate progression to show maturation and physical development? What do you all think? |
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Post by Tenebrais on Jul 10, 2009 20:03:59 GMT
Given that he started drawing the nose like that within this chapter, I think it's just art evolution. If it were to illustrate Annie growing up, it would most likely have been since the start of the chapter, rather than a visible change in appearance occurring over what would be just a few minutes.
That's not to say Tom isn't illustrating the characters growing up. I just don't think the nose is part of that.
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Post by Casey on Jul 10, 2009 20:06:10 GMT
Im not sure I follow what you're saying. With a few exceptions, he's drawn the bridge of her nose in every one of her appearances in this chapter.
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Post by Tenebrais on Jul 10, 2009 20:07:34 GMT
With the exception of the splash page, it starts in 578. The first five pages don't show it.
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Post by Casey on Jul 10, 2009 20:11:26 GMT
Well, yes, but... Annie appeared only a few times in those pages, and most of the times when she did, she was too far away for that level of detail. In one she had the faraway anime little-face, and in another she was making a face at Parley coming up behind her... there were only two occasions during those five pages where I might have expected to see the bridge and didn't, and like I said, "with a few exceptions"...
But I think we're getting off the point here.
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Post by Tenebrais on Jul 10, 2009 20:15:20 GMT
It's been consistent since then (except for when the face is undetailed or seen face-on), so if Tom did intend for it to be part of Annie's aging, then he forgot about it at first.
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Post by Casey on Jul 10, 2009 20:20:03 GMT
...or, like I said, it could have been that the individual shots just didn't fit with it in there. But we're arguing the wrong point here. I think we agree that something is different. And I think we agree that at SOME point it became consistent. Whether it happened at the beginning of the chapter or not, I think, is largely immaterial. I can also tell you for certain that, with the exception of the perspective shot on page 531, Annie has never been drawn this way before. So... it never happened before, and now it is consistently happening. We agree on that. Which brings me to my original question. Why? Do you think Tom is doing it deliberately or inadvertently? Whatever your answer to that question, what do you think the reason behind it is? It it to make her look older? Is it to make her look more like her mother? Is it unintentional habitual carryover from having not drawn Annie since Ch 21 but drawing Surma a whole lot in the meantime? That's what I intended to focus on with this thread. |
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Post by King Mir on Jul 10, 2009 21:44:32 GMT
I think its just an artistic upgrade with no other meaning. Annie, started out looking like Hey Arnold (Gross exaggeration). Slowly her face became more round and cheeks less pointy. Compared to that a nose bridge is nothing.
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Post by nikita on Jul 10, 2009 22:01:22 GMT
I noticed that too. I think it's just the art that is getting better. Annie's nose has always been a bit of a weakness. For a long time it has just been a short straight line (or two sometimes) and that was about it. There have been occasions were that wasn't enough due to perspective were Tom drew a better nose. For example on page 408This has improved as more and more characters were created from scratch in a style different from the one used in the earlier chapters. I think Annie benefits from the stuff Tom learned with those other characters. Also, the quality is constantly high now. In earlier strips, the quality varied a lot more than it does now. Currently I think the effect of improving art is so big that it obscures intended age-related changes. Tom once mentioned that he'd redraw the first chapters if he had the time etc. The flashback in the S1 chapter gave us a taste of how big the difference would have been if the art hadn't changed so dramatically and obscured everything. PS: I really really appreciate that Tom never used this manga like way of drawing peoples face from the side like this: www.flipsidecomics.com/comic.php?i=846 (last panel) That whole manga style can look pretty nice, but this destroys everything. |
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Post by Casey on Jul 10, 2009 22:08:17 GMT
Nikita the picture you are referring to on page 408 happens to be one of my favorite drawings of Annie  |
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Post by Casey on Jul 10, 2009 22:15:44 GMT
Tom once mentioned that he'd redraw the first chapters if he had the time etc. The flashback in the S1 chapter gave us a taste of how big the difference would have been if the art hadn't changed so dramatically and obscured everything. It's interesting, I actually hope that he doesn't do that... because, from my perspective, whether he intended it or not, I think the maturing of the art style over time could be seen as a representation of the maturing of the characters over time. I might be alone in thinking that, I don't know. On another note, personally (and again I might be alone in this) I like Annie better without the straight bridge line. I always assumed that the lack of bridge was intentional, to indicate she had a cute small nose (as is shown in the page Nikita linked). I noticed the use of the straight line right away in Surma, and felt that it was something Tom was using to show a physical difference between the two... as in, Annie has Anthony's nose but otherwise looks a lot like Surma. But then when the bridge started appearing in this chapter, my thought was, oh Tom is helping us to see that Annie looks more like her mother as she's getting a little older. I like the nose bridge line shown in the title page for this chapter the best. And as I said, the picture of her in S1 is probably my favorite. |
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Post by pepoluan on Jul 10, 2009 22:35:13 GMT
If anything, I'd say that Annie now looks more like a woman instead of just a tiddly girl.
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Post by nikita on Jul 11, 2009 0:13:07 GMT
I always assumed that the lack of bridge was intentional, to indicate she had a cute small nose. Exactly what I thought too. Now that I think of it - maybe it is a sign of her getting older. On another note, personally (and again I might be alone in this) I like Annie better without the straight bridge line. I guess it's something that needs to be worked on and practiced. There are occasions where the straight line thing absolutely doesn't work. Also, which parts of the nose get a line is somewhat random. Sometimes the line runs from between the eyes up to the eyebrow (even if the eyebrow is higher than a visible nose ever gets) sometimes it runs from between the eyes down to the tip of the nose. The shape also varies. Interestingly, Parley has a nose that is always visible and doesn't show those inconsistencies. But in general, I think the new nose is a good thing. btw: In the current chapter's title page, Annie's face reminds me of Jennifer Aniston - and I have no idea why. |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jul 11, 2009 4:42:07 GMT
In the photo, Surma didn't have the line for the bridge of her nose either. Her eye-shadow also looks different: in the photo, everything between her eyes and her eyebrows is colored; in the flashback, just her eyelids are colored. Anyway, no complaints here. Even if the style of a particular chapter isn't to my liking, it's better that Tom is constantly pushing to improve his art, and not being complacent.
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Post by Casey on Jul 11, 2009 4:47:41 GMT
In the photo, Surma didn't have the line for the bridge of her nose either. Her eye-shadow also looks different: in the photo, everything between her eyes and her eyebrows is colored; in the flashback, just her eyelids are colored. I think the time at which Tom orginally drew the photo in Chapter 7, that was during the period of time that it was said Tom would redo if he could. Take a look at the artistic style of Annie and Kat in that same chapter. So therefore I think the change in Surma is also due to Tom's "updating" the former material in flashbacks the same way he updated the scene with Winsbury from Ch 2 when he redrew it in S1. I should probably take a moment to stress that I'm in no way complaining about Tom's art. I didn't think you were suggesting I were, but I just wanted to make that clear. I noticed a change and my first thought was that it was an intentional development and that I thought that was a cool decision to make. |
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Post by rezmason on Jul 11, 2009 15:21:44 GMT
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Post by Tom Siddell on Jul 11, 2009 15:33:53 GMT
I guess it's something that needs to be worked on and practiced. oh boy I better get right on that |
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Post by Casey on Jul 11, 2009 16:34:12 GMT
I think you just repeated what I already said in this thread...  Are you saying you agree? |
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Chrome
Full Member
The Shiny One
Posts: 232
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Post by Chrome on Jul 11, 2009 20:49:57 GMT
What is it with webcomic readers, a webcomic's forums, and "Oh God, he drew his main character's all different this week!" exclamations?
Geeze, he drew her nose differently these times. Maybe he just likes doing it. Maybe there's not a gigantic scheme involved in this?
I've seen this sort of overreaction over at the Questionable Content forums, and I'm beginning to wonder if this deserves mention as a trope of some sort.
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Post by Tierra Y Libertad on Jul 11, 2009 22:00:36 GMT
It's 'cause Tom is awesome and Gunnerkrigg Court is always getting better and better.
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Post by nikita on Jul 12, 2009 1:50:45 GMT
I guess it's something that needs to be worked on and practiced. oh boy I better get right on that That's the spirit! |
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Post by Casey on Jul 12, 2009 6:05:22 GMT
What is it with webcomic readers, a webcomic's forums, and "Oh God, he drew his main character's all different this week!" exclamations? Geeze, he drew her nose differently these times. Maybe he just likes doing it. Maybe there's not a gigantic scheme involved in this? I've seen this sort of overreaction over at the Questionable Content forums, and I'm beginning to wonder if this deserves mention as a trope of some sort. Really? Because, see, something I don't really understand is, how some people think that discussion about the comic on a forum that was created for discussion about the comic is somehow bad, overreactive, or otherwise beneath the poster in question. Seriously, if that which you just spouted off is all you got out of what has been said here, then either you're going off half-cocked, or you're intentionally trolling. Either way, you're being a jerk and that isn't welcome. |
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Post by nikita on Jul 12, 2009 12:18:34 GMT
It also a way of telling the author that we noticed that the art improved and improves* Something that certainly deserves its own thread from time to time.
*Seriously, don't focus only on the 0.56% of my posts were I criticize something. I've been in this forum for two years and when I once write a post isn't all praise, I get a bitter, sarcastic remark.
Why is it that nobody, not even otherwise smart people, wants to hear criticism? It is just sad.
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Post by Tom Siddell on Jul 12, 2009 18:38:52 GMT
Bitter, sarcastic remarks are my forte, becuase I have to read them every day on the Internet.
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Post by jimbobbowilly on Jul 12, 2009 22:03:16 GMT
Bitter, sarcastic remarks are my forte, becuase I have to read them every day on the Internet. Sure you do. |
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Post by Per on Jul 12, 2009 22:15:53 GMT
Yeah, that's a great way to lighten the mood around here. Reeeally great. |
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Post by Rasselas on Jul 12, 2009 22:32:01 GMT
You know, it's mighty fine to snark at a comic author in his own forum, especially when you know he's kind of testy about that. By "mighty fine" I mean "not at all nice". I just can't help but feel that this is not the place for that kind of thing, especially if you like the comic and respect the author. |
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Post by Babble-jargon Bill on Jul 13, 2009 0:18:46 GMT
Let's not fuel any more fires people. I'd like to think were above snarking at each other for no good reason.
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Post by Casey on Jul 13, 2009 0:47:13 GMT
I'm pretty sure Jimbob was expressing humor through irony, guys.
I'm half-sure that Per was doing the same.
Beyond that, I can't tell.
But to emphasize for the third time, NO ONE has "snarked" at the comic's author in this thread. If you think otherwise, please explicitly explain where and how. Otherwise let it go.
I'm not pleased that my thread, which I started to acknowledge an evolution in Tom's art and to discuss its ramifications, is being turned into this. People who think that other people are being snarky when they aren't, are causing as much problem if not moreso than the original people would have if that -had- been snarky.
Clear as mud? Don't make me regret starting a thead to discuss the comic, on a forum for discussing the comic. I may just think twice next time.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Jul 13, 2009 11:41:05 GMT
Tom was asked about this in one of the questions threads (the art changes in general, not this specific nose line). His answer is that it was both things; his artistic style changes over time, and also he draws the characters differently as they grow up. It's probably not a question of either/or - it's more like more or less. As in, "hey, this effect looks good, and it makes her look a little older and more mature as well".
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Are you saying you agree?
