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Post by Mezzaphor on Jan 25, 2009 23:28:57 GMT
A side discussion arose on Page 25 of the Questions to Tom thread, which I think should be split off before it derails anything. ---- Here's the discussion so far: leviathan: Does Kat have the potential to learn/use the same sort of magic (is that the right word for it?) that her parents use? Tom Siddell: We shall have to wait and see. Confusticated Bill: The real question is, would she want to? I mean, seeing as how she's dedicated to science, I think she would much rather learn that rather than devote her studies to magic. Or perhaps she might learn a little if it can help her with her inventions. I suppose we do have to just wait and see. todd: Besides, it would blur the notion of Annie and Kat as foils if Kat took up etheric studies. Mezzaphor: Kat using magic would be as silly as Annie building a Robot. No, wait... tierr4yl1bert4d: Mezzaphor is right. I think that they may start as foils but end up being symbols both as friends and later their combination of skills in how the etheric and scientific should work together. ---- To continue this, I don't think the Court is really the opposite of the Forest. I think Gillitie's opposite would be the world at large, which is either ignorant or in denial about the Ethereal. The Court would function as a middle ground -- a Medium -- between these two worlds. In light of my previous blatherings about Ethereal and Scientific being a question of worldviews rather than than a simplistic Nature / Industry binary; I think that as soon as Kat can quantify and replicate the results of an Etheric process, then she won't hesitate to start using it. |
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Post by todd on Jan 25, 2009 23:52:13 GMT
Though the imagery has so far suggested the Court and the Forest as opposites: the friction between them, for example, and the way that they're on opposite sides of the page in the picture at the end of Chapter Fourteen. The middle ground would be the Annan Waters and the bridge spanning them.
Of course, the Etheric world-view is "It just works; don't ask why", which would be anathema to Kat and her spirit of scientific inquiry. Though Annie, who's much more "etheric" than Kat, is even more inquisitive about the strange goings-on around Gunnerkrigg than Kat is.
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Post by sebastionlender on Jan 25, 2009 23:52:58 GMT
But once Kat quantified an ethric process would it be considered ethric any more? that is the fight between the forest and the court, man said why does it fly? the forest responded it just does (the ethric tenet) man said but why? hence the birth of the court the desire to quantify the unquantifiable. this is backed up in comic www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=373 when they say "but man's lust for an explanation saw him grow tired of the etherial tenet", so when Kat can make an item no longer function under the ethral tenet and under a sceintific one then by that logic it is no longer governed by the etheral tenet because now there is a cause and affect as opposed to "because it does" but of course that just my thoughts on the idea. |
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snes
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Post by snes on Jan 26, 2009 4:59:37 GMT
Even if Kat has the capacity to use magic and all, would she want to? She has an obvious preference toward and talent for things that can be explained scientifically. Would she want to go depending on something she doesn't understand?
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jan 26, 2009 5:47:53 GMT
Who's to say what Kat can and can't figure out? Glass-Eyed Men would be Etheric creatures, right? But Kat was able to figure out what Shadow2 is made of.
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Post by fjodor on Jan 26, 2009 9:12:28 GMT
What we know of the reason why the divide between Court and Forest was made, is mainly from Coyote's mouth; maybe not the most reliable source. What if "Etherial tenet" in the Forest world is translated as "Obey, or else...!" and the people wanted to claim their freedom? That would put a particular edge on their controversy.
Also, the Court seems mostly abandoned and shows signs of decay all over the place, it must have been much more powerful in the past. I like Mezzaphor's idea of the Court as a middle ground, but I would think it served as a stronghold or fortress rather than a medium. The very name of the place - Gunner's Crag - would support this.
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Post by zingbat on Jan 26, 2009 10:09:48 GMT
To agree with what some people have already posted: as I read it, Kat doesn't object to what we would term "magic" (sentient shadows, blinker stones, ghosts, psychopomps,...) but to the philosophy of etherial tenet, which Tom has summed up as "It just does, okay?" So, I'm not sure where the idea came from that Kat has some sort of dislike of "magical" stuff. She has a tendency to assume that things (say, robots) will work in accordance with known scientific principles and she rejects the idea that some things are inherently inexplicable, but that's just being a good scientist. Like she says to Reynardine in chap. 18, "Just because something isn't explained yet doesn't make it magic... Anyway, I know I'll figure it out eventually!" And, re: what sebastionlender and Mezzaphor wrote: I have wondered this too! What does it say about the shadows' status as etheric creatures now that we know (sort of) how they work?  On a related note, I'm also definitely interested in seeing the results of Kat's investigations into how the blinker stones or the robots from Chapter 18 work, like we saw her explanation of Shadow2. |
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Post by leviathan on Jan 26, 2009 11:19:02 GMT
I was surprised to see my question getting more responses than Tom's "wait and see."
I asked the question because there are already two characters in the series who are shown as excelling at the sciences and still using magic. Maybe Annie and Kat's parents represent what they won't become but it seemed to me there was a possibility in the future for Kat to follow in her parents' footsteps.
I'm thinking in terms of character development and possible paths that may open to Kat as she learns and grows. I suppose it's also possible that she'll simply solve all the mysteries of the universe. But seeing as she's already been introduced to concepts and creatures that don't fit into a strictly scientific view of the world, I'd hope she come to accept that magic and the etheric have their place, too.
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Post by fjodor on Jan 26, 2009 12:54:29 GMT
I guess scientists would be the first to jump on anything magic to see how it can be used. Therefore I don't think Magic would have no place among scientists; for them it would just be another tool to use. I think the real split between Court and Wood may have something to do with the people's desire to use nature a their tool. Coyote is - as far as we know now - the most powerful being, with strong roots in native American mythology, where balance between people and nature is essential. So in short, I think Kat would be more than interested in learning about aethereality (Is that a word? It is now!). The question is if she will see it as just another tool, or as something that needs to be treated with a certain respect.
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Post by cenit on Jan 26, 2009 13:06:20 GMT
I think the answer it's more practical... I think she'll use it... if she has to.
Kinda like her parents, bot hardcore science people, but have to come to accept some stuff... the desire to understand is there, but there's no reason not to use it. Remembering here Anja and Surma conversation, the one Anja started saying that she wanted to understand how the robots worked without a power source.
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Post by sebastionlender on Jan 26, 2009 23:28:08 GMT
I think the answer it's more practical... I think she'll use it... if she has to. Kinda like her parents, bot hardcore science people, but have to come to accept some stuff... the desire to understand is there, but there's no reason not to use it. Remembering here Anja and Surma conversation, the one Anja started saying that she wanted to understand how the robots worked without a power source. A question i have is have we seen anyone from the courts do actual "magic" the binding from anja could be an affect of a blinker stoner, Sir Eglamore obviously has a magic sword which could account for his jumping and strength, Jones is not from the court as stated in the comic, Andrew Smith is a medium so he could affectively be considered not part of the courts, Kat has a machine that can fly but is powered by an anti gravity motor. The only person who seems to actually have magic power that is not directly related to the forest in some way is Zimmy and we don't know enough about her to rule out a forest or third unknown (perhaps the "very nice man") connection. So does the court actually have magic at all? |
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Post by leviathan on Jan 27, 2009 1:24:37 GMT
How about Donald? Looks to be the same sort of thing Anja uses except we don't know if he has a blinker stone, so we can't attribute his abilities to one (yet). www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=285Of course, it is entirely possible that whatever it is they do isn't magic at all, which would completely nullify just about everything I've said so far. |
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paracelsus
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Post by paracelsus on Jan 27, 2009 2:26:05 GMT
I can't help see the Court as anything but a middle ground.
Otherwise people like Annie, or Anja who can use magic, would be shunned. It's a meeting ground between the two, while officially Scientific, it seems to have a definite undercurrent of the Ether.
People who want to switch sides can do so at the Court, like the suicide faeries or Ally the (now) Stork. The Alchemical symbols everywhere also represent this, I think, because what is Alchemy if not a mixture of the miraculous and the mundane?
EDIT: And that brings up some speculation as to if Kat will get into Alchemy, since it is half science. It'd be a thing the both of them could do and excel in, and might come in useful, though what form it would take in the comic is a variable, if that were the case.
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Post by snes on Jan 29, 2009 2:12:30 GMT
EDIT: And that brings up some speculation as to if Kat will get into Alchemy, since it is half science. It'd be a thing the both of them could do and excel in, and might come in useful, though what form it would take in the comic is a variable, if that were the case. Kat has only shown a gift in mechanics and physics, not in alchemy. It really doesn't seem like her style. |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jan 29, 2009 3:47:01 GMT
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Post by xfactorinfinity on Jan 29, 2009 4:00:30 GMT
Kat is drawn to the hokey. Kat will follow the hokey.
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Post by snes on Jan 29, 2009 4:15:56 GMT
How many scientists work in a field they consider "old" or "hokey"? She probably considers alchemy an outdated science, if she considers it scientific at all, and learned about it to entertain herself. Outside those two references, she hasn't done any alchemy-related activities. |
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ding
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Post by ding on Jan 29, 2009 5:28:10 GMT
I can't help see the Court as anything but a middle ground. If the Court is middle ground, where is the strictly scientific setting to balance the strictly mythological forest, with Gunnerkrigg between? Not terribly concerned with the court not being devoid of ethereal elements or mediums, not sure how the plot could run its course otherwise. Been thinking of the Annan divide as a symbolic construct dividing mythological and scientific that will eventually be dissolved by way of spooky Annie & nerdy Kat's friendship undergoing some sort of trial. But it's a leap. Romantically, forests represent a return to primal nature, escape from civilization. It's not surprising that mythological creatures like Coyote like to hang out there, what is pleasantly surprising is that they hang out in Gunnerkrieg Court, too. Imagine the mythological forest dwellers in Midsummer-Night's leaving the forest to wreck havoc inside Athens Court. Gunnerkrigg science looks like some kind of diesel-punk alchemy. They're making a god with radio waves, can only imagine the result, when it arrives, will not get along so much with the old gods. |
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Post by Babble-jargon Bill on Jan 29, 2009 5:37:15 GMT
You do the hokey-pokey and you turn it all around, that's what it's all about!
Interesting theory about the Annan Waters. I wonder if there are any animals that are native to the river. It seems pretty devoid of life, and I always assumed that the suicide faeries had just sort of wandered down there looking for a willing fox or something to eat them.
When exactly did we come to the conclusion that the court is making a god with radio waves? I suppose that would bring a whole new meaning to "Deus ex machina"
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Post by zingbat on Jan 29, 2009 10:04:44 GMT
So, here's a question: why am I awake right now???
No, that's not actually the question. The question is: how valid is the assumption that ethereal processes and science are incompatible? Jones has characterized the etheric as things that are "unexplained by the science of man", and Reynardine has multiple times exhibited a worldview in line with ethereal tenet (stuff works "just 'cause", and that's all there is to it), but are they necessarily 100% correct?
I wonder about this because we've seen what appears to be a wholly ethereal being, Shadow 2, analyzed to reveal that at least some aspects of him (his physical make-up and how he produces sound) fall within the realm of science that we outside the world of the Court are familiar with. There are still some aspects unaccounted for (where does he keep his brain, for instance? how does he move about?), but that's pretty good for an initial investigation. Kat's results also tell us that we can't assume that things categorized as ethereal won't yield to scientific investigation.
So, what if, in fact, ethereal processes or objects aren't completely at odds with science? What if a skeptical, rigorous approach, combined with knowledge we already have, actually *can* yield significant results? What then?
Uhh... I had some answer to that question, some last point to make, but I've forgotten what it was. Why, indeed, am I up so late (early)?
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ding
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Post by ding on Jan 29, 2009 23:37:53 GMT
When exactly did we come to the conclusion that the court is making a god with radio waves? I suppose that would bring a whole new meaning to "Deus ex machina" Thanks to Coyote we know they're making a god. I thought the cover for Power Station looked like a radio tower, noticed some other references to radio transmissions (Zimmy's reception problems, Gamma), and ran wildly into left field with it. |
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Post by todd on Jan 30, 2009 0:54:38 GMT
I thought it was more they were trying to make themselves God than to create a new one.
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Post by Babble-jargon Bill on Jan 30, 2009 1:19:35 GMT
Interesting, I read a story once called "The Tower of Babylon" where humanity tries to build a tower to heaven. Maybe the Court is trying to detect some celestial entity through radar. After all, why would they have such a huge observatory?
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Post by snes on Jan 30, 2009 5:41:15 GMT
Interesting, I read a story once called "The Tower of Babylon" where humanity tries to build a tower to heaven. Maybe the Court is trying to detect some celestial entity through radar. After all, why would they have such a huge observatory? All observatories are huge. Massive computations are required to monitor the movements of heavenly bodies. |
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Post by zingbat on Jan 30, 2009 12:59:18 GMT
Interesting, I read a story once called "The Tower of Babylon" where humanity tries to build a tower to heaven. Maybe the Court is trying to detect some celestial entity through radar. After all, why would they have such a huge observatory? All observatories are huge. Massive computations are required to monitor the movements of heavenly bodies. Also, big telescopes (or other observe-y things). Like, freakin' huge. |
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Post by todd on Feb 1, 2009 1:40:35 GMT
Interesting, I read a story once called "The Tower of Babylon" where humanity tries to build a tower to heaven. The biblical story from Genesis, or an updated version from more recent times? |
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Post by Babble-jargon Bill on Feb 1, 2009 6:24:23 GMT
Interesting, I read a story once called "The Tower of Babylon" where humanity tries to build a tower to heaven. The biblical story from Genesis, or an updated version from more recent times? It was in a modern fantasy compilation, an updated version by Ted Chiang. The compilation is called the Mammoth Book of Extreme Fantasy in case your interested. |
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Post by rallan on Feb 2, 2009 9:20:27 GMT
Kat already does magic. You don't think just anyone can design anti-gravity from first principles and whip up a hoverbike in a couple of hours do you?
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Post by snes on Feb 2, 2009 21:17:07 GMT
Kat already does magic. You don't think just anyone can design anti-gravity from first principles and whip up a hoverbike in a couple of hours do you? Anyone? No. Super-genius Katerina Donlan motivated by the notion that her best friend could be in trouble? Sure. |
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Post by warrl on Feb 3, 2009 0:14:11 GMT
Kat already does magic. You don't think just anyone can design anti-gravity from first principles and whip up a hoverbike in a couple of hours do you? Anyone? No. Super-genius Katerina Donlan motivated by the notion that her best friend could be in trouble? Sure. Yes, Kat Donlan is obviously a Spark. |
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On a related note, I'm also definitely interested in seeing the results of Kat's investigations into how the blinker stones or the robots from Chapter 18 work, like we saw her explanation of Shadow2.
