[2988] "...it's burning energy from them, too."

[imaginaryfriend]

I did generate an alternative theory but yeah, we figured it was probably the Star Ocean. How about cutting that link now, Antimony?

I wonder how deep the comparison with Smitface's powers goes.

[Timberwere]

Oh Annie, come to think of it, that is just like the Court, actually... not just leaving etheric beings behind, but also using them as batteries to further their goal of a non-etheric future... But yeah, we knew they were heartless, just not exactly how heartless. "Not human, no souls, can be discarded" kind of thing.

[aggadahGothic]

This page doesn't seem to follow on from the last page. Kat was still talking to Shadow.

[yellowb]

The third panel. The one on the left looks a lot like Shell. And the one on the right has hair *kinda* like Parley's. It's coincidental of course, just thought I'd point it out.

[imaginaryfriend]

Sept 2, 2024 7:15:31 GMT aggadahGothic said:

This page doesn't seem to follow on from the last page. Kat was still talking to Shadow.

If the currently displayed comic is actually #2989 then I'll revise the thread title to reflect that when #2988 is uploaded.

[edit] It could be that what Shadow said on #2987 finished the conversation and Kat turned away, back towards Antimony. [/edit]

[csj]

Aug 31, 2024 3:04:02 GMT csj said:

Feb 2, 2015 15:38:32 GMT csj said:

The Forest Has You...

I am suddenly regretting this post a little more

I am suddenly regretting this post a lot more

[guntherkrieg]

Sept 2, 2024 7:05:29 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

I did generate an alternative theory but yeah, we figured it was probably the Star Ocean. How about cutting that link now, Antimony?

I wonder how deep the comparison with Smitface's powers goes.

Smithy's powers work on altering probability. 

Is Smithy going to be the "forsaken child" that powers it all? Basically brute-forcing reality so that only the Court's schemes are the ones that succeed? 

[ezpak]

"I feel useless" is gonna be the start of Kat augmenting herself with the etheric computer using the chip implant, isn't it.

[eyemyself]

So… while we’re on the subject of that whole Kat kills Zimmy/Annie kills Loup prophecy thing…👀

…guessing now that they discover that’s the only way to end the distortion and save everyone else from being used as fodder in the Court’s exit strategy.

I suspect that the Court’s plans probably suck up so much esthetic energy they will consume every last scrap of ether available. The Foley kids are likely the first to go because they’re the easiest to consume and least likely to notice what’s happening to them. But, I don’t think anyone currently inside the distortion is safe - especially since the Court wants a world without any lingering connection to the ether at all. Burning it all up as fuel would definitely accomplish that goal.

[lisanela]

I wonder if the court even realizes they are killing the foley students, or if it's an awful combination of not caring and hating the ether so much they think the students will be better without it.

[shadow3]

Kat's desire to be useful has always resulted in some kind of breakthrough in her research and inventions.

One step closer to Kat becoming the secret final boss of Gunnerkrigg Court, the techno-goddess who breaks time and dimensions.

[ctso74]

No, this sort of thing is totally the Court's bag.

[maxptc]

"If I could see it, I could harness that power for myself jk haha"-Kat

[Geekette]

I want to try and play Omega’s Advocate for a moment. If the Foley students knew they were being burnt away, would they mind?

I know that we find it abhorrent. We mind. We find it detestable and view it as either murder or negligent manslaughter. But not everyone thinks of death as something terrible to avoid, and we know the Foley students value things differently to what we or Annie and Kat do.

After all, we also think it’s terrible that they were not being given holidays or weekends. But they didn’t care. They were safe, warm, fed, could play in the ether all they wanted, had the promise of receiving names and an important job for the future. What they wanted in life, they were getting. And right now they’re still getting what they wanted from life.

We know that Aliyu was willing to almost die to get her name. Red wasn’t angry just they were put in danger, she was more angry that they weren’t given proper information for the choice.

Because we’d never agree to a life like this if we knew it would kill us, we’re assuming they’re uninformed. We’re assuming they’re being tricked. We’re assuming they’re have no idea they’re dying. But what if they do? What if this and a named gravestone are all they want out of their Elysian Fields?

Is the court really so terrible then, Annie?

(Also relevant to the Omega Advocate argument - we haven’t seen any named Foley students here. Not even the ones that we’d given unofficial names to in the comic before this scene.)

[blahzor]

i think in this case they are being burnt away and not returned to the ether and that would be the line they would draw

[TBeholder]

Sept 2, 2024 9:30:02 GMT guntherkrieg said:

Is Smithy going to be the "forsaken child" that powers it all? Basically brute-forcing reality so that only the Court's schemes are the ones that succeed? 

Either this, or the opposite.
His power is to casually kick the situation through the exit condition. Which happens more or less automatically. But when there are several meaningful outcomes, his intent matters.

[imaginaryfriend]

Sept 3, 2024 2:32:43 GMT Geekette said:

I want to try and play Omega’s Advocate for a moment. If the Foley students knew they were being burnt away, would they mind? I know that we find it abhorrent. We mind. We find it detestable and view it as either murder or negligent manslaughter. But not everyone thinks of death as something terrible to avoid, and we know the Foley students value things differently to what we or Annie and Kat do. After all, we also think it’s terrible that they were not being given holidays or weekends. But they didn’t care. They were safe, warm, fed, could play in the ether all they wanted, had the promise of receiving names and an important job for the future. What they wanted in life, they were getting. And right now they’re still getting what they wanted from life. We know that Aliyu was willing to almost die to get her name. Red wasn’t angry just they were put in danger, she was more angry that they weren’t given proper information for the choice. Because we’d never agree to a life like this if we knew it would kill us, we’re assuming they’re uninformed. We’re assuming they’re being tricked. We’re assuming they’re have no idea they’re dying. But what if they do? What if this and a named gravestone are all they want out of their Elysian Fields? Is the court really so terrible then, Annie? (Also relevant to the Omega Advocate argument - we haven’t seen any named Foley students here. Not even the ones that we’d given unofficial names to in the comic before this scene.)

In My Humble Opinion the Foley students might or might not object in principle to being worked to death or drained dry for their etheric power. I don't know but I don't think they'd raise moral objections as I understand them. Here's why I think that.

I'm not sure if having a name means personhood, adulthood, or just social status to them. I'm not sure if death for them is permanent but I don't see why it shouldn't be now that they have human bodies and I don't know if they appreciate that. Same goes for mutilation, maybe Red didn't think twice about cutting a finger off because the thought of cutting something off her body was inconceivable to her before her graduation and new body. I don't know if fairies reproduce with other fairies or what but going by Ayilu's reactions to Red's hair they probably use R type mate selection. As for the former forest animals, some may be R and some K but all of them (former fairies included) are probably so familiar with the notion of the weak having to serve the strong that they don't even consider that there's a possibility of something else. The tomato-wanging bit makes me think large primate and some of their notions are probably similar but I'd expect most to be lower. Now, they probably do understand the possibility of talking themselves out of a tight situation... but I don't think they entertain the idea that doing so is actually appealing to something "real" like ethics or morality... it's more about getting one over on someone more powerful and securing an upset victory.

So... while Foley kids might possibly be okay with the notion of being worked to death, drained for etheric power, or killed and eaten on the basis of the Court being more powerful than they are and constituting their overarching social system... I don't care.* They're humans (or mostly human) now. Normally, I'd give a lot of latitude to individuals' personal preferences and I hate forcing things on people but in this case they have been deliberately mal/uneducated; they know less about rights and responsibilities than an infant and they don't have the ability to consent. I believe the Court fell far short of their duty to safekeep, educate, and integrate these kids (and probably Chester too) and while being subject to their practices may be a college education's worth in man's inhumanity to man it appears they have been deliberately shorted on what humanity actually means for sake of the Court's utility... and that's assuming Lavender's death was merely negligent. If they were brought to the Court to be burned as fuel that's worse than trafficking. Were I a Court employee and I learned human sacrifice was on the agenda I would 1. consider it a duty to spread the news among the rest of the Court and 2. attempt to identify what individuals were responsible for this state of affairs and where they are at this moment and 3. become maximum disgruntled and consider what avenues of expression my feelings should take.

Now, if the Foley kids can still die and respawn without any serious ill effects, I'd have to rethink this... but I doubt that's the case.



*This is in fact a massive understatement. I am in fact incapable of giving fewer fucks. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd force things on them but I would very much stop anything that infringed on the human or negative political rights of a Foley kid, regardless how they felt about it. I would of course make an effort to explain why I was doing what I was doing, circumstances permitting. There are probably weird instances where I might make an exception, like who's romantically linked with who, but even if they all believe that the female belongs to whoever wins the knife fight (including the female) that doesn't make me feel bad about stopping all of that.

[jda]

Well Annie, you know, you can warn them in the ether so thy can revolt... or no,maybe theyd just call you silly and keep playing.
I just wonder if maybe all this Illusion is being projected fom Ayilu's poweres....

[imaginaryfriend]

Sept 2, 2024 16:28:12 GMT lisanela said:

I wonder if the court even realizes they are killing the foley students, or if it's an awful combination of not caring and hating the ether so much they think the students will be better without it.

It's probably not just the Foleys. It took me a long time to find it but Zeta said that the kids in Chester had been left to fend for themselves, and that was back in Ch. 74. (On the page after that she went on to say that classes and experiments have been shut down which suggests that what the Foley kids were doing was work in some way supporting the Court, possibly the Star Ocean.)  I don't know if the Chesters are drainable but they can still die in the distortion or from roving creatures.

I think the Court is panicking in slow-motion and has been for a while. Coyote reminded them what they had to fear when he knocked that building over to express his displeasure, then their fears became reality when the tree eruption happened and the blackouts. The shield deployment stopped the attack but at the cost of their robot labor force. There followed the incursions from various creatures, the failure of Aata's plan, then the failure of the barrier. After thinking about it for a long time, I believe the only reason they're keeping the Star Ocean going 24/7 is as a final defense mechanism.

I sorta doubt the Court wants to kill kids, for sake of optics if nothing else. That might cause dissent so they probably didn't plan on burning children for fuel from the get-go.  Maybe they think since they're withdrawing and anyone they can't take is screwed anyway, why not?  Crank the Star Ocean to 11 and hope it covers the retreat long enough that all the important people and the stuff they'll need get on the boats.  Shell did say that the Court was going to go ahead with their plan and for that they need a huge source of ether, whatever the cost. Maybe that means they do know and have turned a blind eye. That would mean that not just the Foleys and Chester but also the elves and the security personnel have been written off, as well as anyone else they can't take or who won't agree to go.

[todd]

As I mentioned before in another thread, I suspect the Court might also take the approach (assuming they're aware of the way the ether works according to Coyote) that the Foleys aren't truly real or alive, that they're just the manifestation of human beliefs about what was out there before they developed a scientific understanding of their surroundings, and that it's therefore no more truly killing than, say, erasing a book filled with fictional characters.

Though I still can't help thinking that one potential drawback of the Court's plan is that it's relying on the ether to escape the ether, its whole Star Ocean plan is founded on the ether, which makes it seem like sawing away the tree branch you're sitting on.

[pyradonis]

My personal guess: The Star Ocean was always draining something from the Foleys, and the Court (or at least some Court members) is knowingly responsible for this, but... before the distortion it was just a tiny drain that didn't harm them permanently (the Foleys might have even been aware of it). Like occasionally donating a small amount of blood (usually) doesn't cause permanent harm because it gets regenerated by the body. Now the distortion has massively increased the drain to the point of being lethal. So, a really shitty move, but not actually planned to harm anyone.

Sept 3, 2024 2:32:43 GMT Geekette said:

I want to try and play Omega’s Advocate for a moment. If the Foley students knew they were being burnt away, would they mind?

I know that we find it abhorrent. We mind. We find it detestable and view it as either murder or negligent manslaughter. But not everyone thinks of death as something terrible to avoid, and we know the Foley students value things differently to what we or Annie and Kat do.

After all, we also think it’s terrible that they were not being given holidays or weekends. But they didn’t care. They were safe, warm, fed, could play in the ether all they wanted, had the promise of receiving names and an important job for the future. What they wanted in life, they were getting. And right now they’re still getting what they wanted from life.

We know that Aliyu was willing to almost die to get her name. Red wasn’t angry just they were put in danger, she was more angry that they weren’t given proper information for the choice.

Because we’d never agree to a life like this if we knew it would kill us, we’re assuming they’re uninformed. We’re assuming they’re being tricked. We’re assuming they’re have no idea they’re dying. But what if they do? What if this and a named gravestone are all they want out of their Elysian Fields?

Is the court really so terrible then, Annie?

(Also relevant to the Omega Advocate argument - we haven’t seen any named Foley students here. Not even the ones that we’d given unofficial names to in the comic before this scene.)

Omega's advocate is contradicting themselves here.

You say they want to get names and jobs. That is indeed what they are specifically promised for finishing school. Then you claim they are still getting what they want from life while being killed. What about finishing school and getting names and jobs then? How does that fit together?

You hypothesize that the Foleys agree to the lives they have while being fully informed. You base this on the fact that Red was angry about not being properly informed before going into the ravine. However, when Red was seen in school for the first time, it was made very clear that the Foleys are not informed about a lot of things. From not knowing that their new bodies have hair that grows and can be cut, to not even being taught what a chair is. Red literally says she only knows what they tell her. And of course, they do not know what holidays are. So how can they consciously agree to a life of work with no holidays when they do not even know an alternative exists?

Sept 2, 2024 16:15:01 GMT eyemyself said:

So… while we’re on the subject of that whole Kat kills Zimmy[...] prophecy thing…👀

I really think we shouldn't treat this as a prophecy of any kind. Zimmy is not known to have any prophetic powers. She is, however, known to be extremely paranoid and regularly seeing people and monsters being after her.

[King Mir]

Sept 3, 2024 13:13:55 GMT todd said:

Though I still can't help thinking that one potential drawback of the Court's plan is that it's relying on the ether to escape the ether, its whole Star Ocean plan is founded on the ether, which makes it seem like sawing away the tree branch you're sitting on.

This seems to be intentional. They don't want to be able to return from where they are going. The Star Ocean is not the destination; it's the ocean only the way to get there.

[maxptc]

Sept 3, 2024 13:13:55 GMT todd said:

As I mentioned before in another thread, I suspect the Court might also take the approach (assuming they're aware of the way the ether works according to Coyote) that the Foleys aren't truly real or alive, that they're just the manifestation of human beliefs about what was out there before they developed a scientific understanding of their surroundings, and that it's therefore no more truly killing than, say, erasing a book filled with fictional characters.

Though I still can't help thinking that one potential drawback of the Court's plan is that it's relying on the ether to escape the ether, its whole Star Ocean plan is founded on the ether, which makes it seem like sawing away the tree branch you're sitting on.

That depends on how cause and effect works in regards to magic, Annie's fingerprint on the moon being a good example. It is only there because of magic, but now that's it's there is magic required to sustain it? I suspect not, and I think the same holds true for the new world. They may need magic to make it and get there, but will that still be the case once it becomes established? I suspect not, but admittedly have nothing to back that up.

[Gemini Jim]

Sept 3, 2024 13:13:55 GMT todd said:

Though I still can't help thinking that one potential drawback of the Court's plan is that it's relying on the ether to escape the ether, its whole Star Ocean plan is founded on the ether, which makes it seem like sawing away the tree branch you're sitting on.

Another way to look at it, I suppose is that the early chemists were a lot like alchemists; and astronomy and astrology are intertwined, we would not have these sciences without the pseudoscience.

If the Star Ocean is powered by Ether, the Court may think of Ether metaphorically as rocket boosters to be discarded once they "reach orbit."



Annie and Kat have the potential here to throw some monkey wrenches into the Star Ocean plan if they would just unplug the students. Or at least wake them up, or whatever they have to do to prevent another death by draining.

Heck, it might even attract Meg's attention; force her to come over demand to know what are they doing with her Ether batteries. (* or Ether computers if they aren't literally Star Ocean fuel.)

[TBeholder]

Sept 3, 2024 13:13:55 GMT todd said:

Though I still can't help thinking that one potential drawback of the Court's plan is that it's relying on the ether to escape the ether, its whole Star Ocean plan is founded on the ether, which makes it seem like sawing away the tree branch you're sitting on.

As advertised, yes. But then, their invitation at the meeting when it was supposedly revealed was unreasonably optimistic, too.
This suggests that

1. the “inner circle” guys are delusional,
2. the plan “as advertised” is mostly smoke and mirrors, cover-up for something else, or
3. both.

Coyote probably was correct in that it is a bid for apotheosis, with attendant power and immortality. Whether via starting Ether from scratch at some place where it did not exist, hard reset of Ether back on Earth, or something else entirely. I mean, blatantly trying to steal power of a god sounds somewhat over the top for anything less. But beyond this — who knows. How many even of these “inner circle” people know the entire plan? Starting with the delicate matter of… ah… how large the set of intended beneficiaries really is. (or, in the immortal words of Lord Snackleford from Girl Genius in a similar situation, «yesss… about that …»)

Blessed be me!
Who is the lord thy god to be

[pyradonis]

Sept 3, 2024 18:46:23 GMT Gemini Jim said:

Heck, it might even attract Meg's attention; force her to come over demand to know what are they doing with her Ether batteries. (* or Ether computers if they aren't literally Star Ocean fuel.)

IF she is even aware of what exactly is happening with the Foleys, not being able to see under the surface of anything Etheric.

[Gemini Jim]

Sept 4, 2024 12:52:33 GMT pyradonis said:

Sept 3, 2024 18:46:23 GMT Gemini Jim said:

Heck, it might even attract Meg's attention; force her to come over demand to know what are they doing with her Ether batteries. (* or Ether computers if they aren't literally Star Ocean fuel.)

IF she is even aware of what exactly is happening with the Foleys, not being able to see under the surface of anything Etheric.

(If they finally get around to cutting the vines, and...) if the Star Ocean vessel starts to go Titanic as a result, Meg might notice that, even if she doesn't fully understand what's going on with the Foleys.

That might make for a fun confrontation. I can imagine Meg coming in, mad about the Star Ocean, but not aware of the full implications (assuming that she can't see into the Ether). Then Annie and Kat would have to explain to her that the Foleys are being drained.

If Meg doesn't Heel-Face Turn at that, she really would be beyond hope.

[todd]

Sept 4, 2024 15:53:47 GMT Gemini Jim said:

Sept 4, 2024 12:52:33 GMT pyradonis said:

IF she is even aware of what exactly is happening with the Foleys, not being able to see under the surface of anything Etheric.

(If they finally get around to cutting the vines, and...) if the Star Ocean vessel starts to go Titanic as a result, Meg might notice that, even if she doesn't fully understand what's going on with the Foleys.

That might make for a fun confrontation. I can imagine Meg coming in, mad about the Star Ocean, but not aware of the full implications (assuming that she can't see into the Ether). Then Annie and Kat would have to explain to her that the Foleys are being drained.

If Meg doesn't Heel-Face Turn at that, she really would be beyond hope.

Since she didn't care what happened to Zimmy (who is human), I doubt she'd care about the Foleys, who were originally etheric beings like fairies - and presumably thus, in her eyes, not real but only ancient human superstitions given a semblance of life by the ether, being returned to the nothingness from which they came.

[Gemini Jim]

Sept 5, 2024 0:06:38 GMT todd said:

Sept 4, 2024 15:53:47 GMT Gemini Jim said:

(If they finally get around to cutting the vines, and...) if the Star Ocean vessel starts to go Titanic as a result, Meg might notice that, even if she doesn't fully understand what's going on with the Foleys.

That might make for a fun confrontation. I can imagine Meg coming in, mad about the Star Ocean, but not aware of the full implications (assuming that she can't see into the Ether). Then Annie and Kat would have to explain to her that the Foleys are being drained.

If Meg doesn't Heel-Face Turn at that, she really would be beyond hope.

Since she didn't care what happened to Zimmy (who is human), I doubt she'd care about the Foleys, who were originally etheric beings like fairies - and presumably thus, in her eyes, not real but only ancient human superstitions given a semblance of life by the ether, being returned to the nothingness from which they came.

Not the Foleys. The Court ship. Or whatever it is.

If she cares at all about the Star Ocean, and if unplugging the Foleys messes in some way with the Court's plan to escape to a New World, that will attract Meg's attention.

[exquisitecorpus]

Snuffle's friend must have gone to find Snuffle after the Forest/Court boundaries dissolved, but I wonder if it was only recently she reunited with him by navigating the distortion, or if she was able to find him ages ago when the boundaries first broke. It's a very touching last panel 🥲

Sept 3, 2024 15:46:00 GMT pyradonis said:

I really think we shouldn't treat this as a prophecy of any kind. Zimmy is not known to have any prophetic powers. She is, however, known to be extremely paranoid and regularly seeing people and monsters being after her.

Minor quibble, but I'm of the camp that Zimmy does have prophetic powers fueled by the ether, albeit very, very unreliable ones. She's semi-predicted Renard's piercing or imprisonment while he was in a Rojak's body here, and this looks like an imperfect echo of either Coyote's death (I see similarities in expression with panel 1) or Loup's rampage (notice the tooth gap, albeit in the wrong place) way before it ever happened. 

Edit: Mixed up the fact that the ex-rabbit was the nameless one, not Snuffle. Oops.