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Post by selthafrinon on Jul 4, 2024 8:43:01 GMT
If her connection to the ether remains broken, assuming she's telling the truth about that and not just preempting any request for aid ending the distortion, she is now without her predictive powers and can now experience things like everyone else does. Assuming her fangirling is legit she is already forgoing long-term benefits by creating a less-positive-than-necessary impression of herself by indulging herself, and may be continuing that trend with how she's flakking for the Court. If Omega can honestly reflect, she may change or moderate her opinions. I'm believe she still has her predictive powers per this page, she just can't see outside of the distortion so she doesn't have so much information to process. On a separate note, this seems like an interesting parallel to Annie's actions with Jeanne. Back then, Annie moved of her own volition, pulled her friends into a dangerous scheme, to help someone without their consent and without heed of the consequences it would bring. I vaguely remember Jeanne's disappearance left the Annan waters unguarded, allowing easy infiltration of the court by forest creatures, which contributed to and may have brought about the current events. No doubt Jeanne is better off now than she was, and maybe Zimmy will be too; we still don't know how Zimmy is actually doing in the distortion. But I feel it brings up an interesting flaw in Annie's character: a headstrong stubbornness that blinds her to the effect of her actions on others beyond her immediate sight. It is as such: doing good actions now does not always guarantee good consequences later. Annie removed the guardian of the Annan waters, which was a good thing for Jeanne. But she did not spare a thought to the reason the Annan waters needed guarding, nor to finding a way to continue that guardianship if it was still needed. I find this lack of consideration a very irresponsible way of affecting large changes on the world. I wonder if Annie will do the same here. She plainly sees the Court as a selfish entity that must be opposed, and has no scruples stopping the work hundreds of people have put their lives into for decades, maybe even centuries. Not to mention ignoring/sidelining the feelings, desires, and dreams of the person in front of her. Now, I have no doubt freeing Zimmy from this distortion is the right thing to do, if Zimmy really is suffering. My only concern is how many dreams she's going to thoughtlessly trample to do it; my only hope that Omega can at convince her to think about the far-off people her actions will affect. Not to turn her away from helping, but to expand her efforts; that she may consider some way to ameliorate the suffering she may cause. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 4, 2024 9:15:28 GMT
Yeah as I've observed before Omega is potentially ridiculously manipulative and may be pushing Antimony's buttons with the intent to butterfly-effect some very specific end, or maybe it's a negotiating position. She may be drunk on life right now, as it were, and not able to use her intellectual abilities normally. I'm inclined to think she's currently buzzed and fogged, but I'm taking a wait-and-see approach. If her connection to the ether remains broken, assuming she's telling the truth about that and not just preempting any request for aid ending the distortion, she is now without her predictive powers and can now experience things like everyone else does. Assuming her fangirling is legit she is already forgoing long-term benefits by creating a less-positive-than-necessary impression of herself by indulging herself, and may be continuing that trend with how she's flakking for the Court. If Omega can honestly reflect, she may change or moderate her opinions. I'm believe she still has her predictive powers per this page, she just can't see outside of the distortion so she doesn't have so much information to process. Broken probably wasn't the best choice of words on my part as that implies completely broken off, perhaps I should've said busted or obscured. Continuing the weather analogy, I think being in the distortion is akin to being in a raging storm; her visibility is low to zero so any causal chains she could see (if any) are bound to be very short. I don't think she can deduce where people are at right now. She doesn't need to use those powers to find people, though. She just needs to have or create related memories and feeling, and she probably knows something about Antimony's friends (including Tony) already so she can just bwip to wherever they're at to find them. |
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Post by arkadi on Jul 4, 2024 11:37:48 GMT
The conflict between foresight and free will goes on. The conflict between foresight and free will is about to get serious, and I'm not sure Omega is fully aware of it. |
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morrahadesigns
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Skinamarinky dinky-dink. Skinamarinky doo.
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Post by morrahadesigns on Jul 4, 2024 14:37:54 GMT
Possibly hot take: our intro chapter to Omega features her leading people around a literal thought maze by means of behaving in a certain way and saying certain things to get them to do what she wants. Now we've got Omega adopting a comically stereotypical "look at me I'm a immortal cyborg lady and feelings are for chumps" persona, and she appears to be aiming to pack in every viewpoint known to push Annie into impulsive rage mode. After having straight-up told Annie that all the terrible impulsive decisions she makes are great, actually. Key to destabilizing the Court's magic Big Data machine, even. So like I'm not tryna say Omega the literal cyborg prediction machine might be playing an incredibly predicable character's emotions like a fiddle, but... That is a very solid point. I wonder if Tony is going to see that and say/do anything about it. |
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Post by basser on Jul 4, 2024 16:05:46 GMT
Possibly hot take: our intro chapter to Omega features her leading people around a literal thought maze by means of behaving in a certain way and saying certain things to get them to do what she wants. Now we've got Omega adopting a comically stereotypical "look at me I'm a immortal cyborg lady and feelings are for chumps" persona, and she appears to be aiming to pack in every viewpoint known to push Annie into impulsive rage mode. After having straight-up told Annie that all the terrible impulsive decisions she makes are great, actually. Key to destabilizing the Court's magic Big Data machine, even. So like I'm not tryna say Omega the literal cyborg prediction machine might be playing an incredibly predicable character's emotions like a fiddle, but... That is a very solid point. I wonder if Tony is going to see that and say/do anything about it. I was thinking it'd be a nice bit of layout foreshadowing if the framing on Tony there for the "made [my abilities] an asset, not a curse" line led to a situation where we find out that the only reason Tony isn't also getting big mad here is because of his mind cage thing. Like if Annie and Renard bop out in a justice-seeking huff on the next page and then Tony is like "well if I'd been able to emote just now I would've also got angry, on account of how rebelling against the edicts of fate is kinda my entire deal, but since I was stuck in zen mode instead I was able to notice that you're maybe being super manipulative and would you mind telling me what's up with that". And then Omega could be like "haha oh yeah sorry dude that was just the quickest way to launch your kid at the heart of this thing like a missile, wanna look at spreadsheets together?" |
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Post by gpvos on Jul 4, 2024 17:32:48 GMT
So like I'm not tryna say Omega the literal cyborg prediction machine might be playing an incredibly predicable character's emotions like a fiddle, but... - Are you trying to make me angry? - Yes. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=367 |
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Post by storyteller on Jul 5, 2024 1:45:15 GMT
So this page is rather... Interesting.
So the flashing neon sign.
Zimmy can be considered to have something rather close to psychosis or a different mental disorder. The Court as far as we've seen have done nothing to help her manage it except stay out of her way.
This is not what happened to Omega as her condition and well being was her doctor/husband(?)'s priority.
Which makes the utilitarian argument hollow as - the teenager has been handling her condition with other teenagers.
It's actually a minor trend with Zimmy but - her condition is usually aggravated beyond her default management by outside events.
Goodnight Gamma was Zimmy under control - she didn't like that Gamma was exhausted but the two and help kept things from coming apart that much.
Power Station - On one hand - it's Zimmy's fault because she let go early. On the other - the power station was extracting stuff that bothered her head, and she didn't know what it did so her usual control methods suddenly failed.
I'd call this a mullagen. It's akin to someone's antipsychotics having a bad batch and them thinking their reliable meds would work because why wouldn't it. And given the fact that uh, Zimmy was brought in for the new world project it seems, the fact she was affected was probably known. - Jack did get infected here, so point to dangerous.
Jack Incident - was on the cusp of turning bad. But Jones fixed it. Thing was - uh, outside stress does make things worse with a lot of mental conditions. Stalker Jack presumably qualifies.
Divine - Usage by Zimmy specifically to help Annie. Things went wrong and was starting to get dangerous, but upon reread, Annie was the one that threw her. Which while she'd not want Zimmy in her head is actually a solid show of "Zimmy knows what the hell she is doing". Possibly dangerous but delicately done. Also Zimmy showing she does know what her powers do, she's just rubbish at control.
On the other hand you have the Seraphs using Zimmy as an etheric generator. Which -I think is the example where people are coming from that the Court is able to control this. the system was brought down very quickly, and specific order. Annie is specifically stopped from bringing down the etheric bouoies until they have Zimmy and set things up for her to have a rainstorm on her.
After that we don't have a Zimmy incident until Find Yourself which is seemingly at least partially stress induced. Which is resolved with the panic being weighted out and calm and patience. And because everything is already etheric Zimmy sorts out the Annie duplicate problem. Which doesn't mention Zimmy giving Annie warning about Kat and the unseen world after bailing her from Paz.
And I do need to ask at this point - essentially given how Zimmy is central to court plans. How much has the ether extraction and lack of rain made Zimmy's condition harder to manage?
Renard respects Zimmy because her powers are nasty but for all that power, able to undo what Loup did after all, Zimmy is just not an asshole god like Coyote. What happens is her being tired and not caring. As opposed to her deciding that she's bored and having fun
Which look, I have a very minor sensor disability. Here is how people tend to react when I come up against it's limitations and everyone else can no longer pretend there isn't an issue. "Why didn't you say something" never mind I have repeatedly in the lead up.
If Omega says that asking Zimmy was not an option because she'd say no - I point to Zimmy's record of knowing her own limits and how her previous I'll kill you statement with the robots very much appears to be a warning.
The Court at no point talked to Zimmy, or really treated her as a person. She's equipment. Convince Zimmy to come, train her with control for the common purpose of safety for the Court and her being able to let Gamma sleep because she can handle short bursts of Zimmiham time.
Honestly I find it absolutely disgusting that the exploitation of Zimmy is excused under utilitarianism because the Court didn't make preparations to get Zimmy to work with them And didn't even try.
I'm also going to restate that the Court knowing Zimmy's power and limits, who is very much treated as a disabled individual thematically in the regard of limits and regulation there of, better than Zimmy is thematically terrible.
I'm honestly curious whether Zimmy is going to walk out of the Coyote Loup and her merge with someone's control system.
But the Court? I'm fairly sure we've had Zimmy and Gamma set up the entire comic that the two know what Zimmy's powers can do, how to handle them specifically for the Court to utterly fumble using them
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Post by drmemory on Jul 5, 2024 4:25:18 GMT
You know, it really seems like Omega thinks this will help Zimmy. At least in the sense of making her have a useful life that helps others rather than just suffering in the dirt, helplessly. What isn't clear is whether this plan is good for Zimmy - will taking her excess energy make her feel better or no? Like if this helps Zimmy and doesn't cause her pain, then Omega is right - win/win/win for Zimmy, Omega, and the Court. If it's harming Zimmy, as Annie assumes, then it isn't as clear. Annie is the only one that has claimed "torment" - even Renard hasn't chimed in on that.
It would really be nice if someone were to actually talk to Zimmy and see how things are going for her.
There are also a lot of external factors nobody seems to be considering at the moment, due to Annie's narrow emotional focus. For example, is the court really going to another planet or are they being tricked? What is Coyote's plan? Is what is happening with Zimmy part of it? What about Omega's plans - did Coyote know them all along and incorporate them into his, or is he having to adjust rapidly here?
I really have a strong feeling that we're still seeing Coyote's long-term plan play out, despite all the moving parts. But we aren't sure what his real goals are so it's hard to decide whether to root for him or not. I will, however, point out that as far as manipulating people into doing what he wants them to do, regardless of their personal agendas and such, and doing it without telling anyone what he's doing, Coyote is far worse than Omega. Annie is freaking out about what Omega's plans mean for one person, while ignoring how Coyote's plans affect the forest, the court, and everyone she knows. Without taking the trouble to verify her data, I might add.
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Post by worldsong on Jul 5, 2024 6:32:01 GMT
To me the fact that Annie likes Coyote despite him being a manipulative bastard has been a sore thumb for a long time.
I guess that's the downside of etheric empathy.
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Cori
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Post by Cori on Jul 5, 2024 6:54:21 GMT
To me the fact that Annie likes Coyote despite him being a manipulative bastard has been a sore thumb for a long time. I guess that's the downside of etheric empathy. Coyote knew Surma and is one of the few connections Annie has to her mother that seems willing to talk about her. Donald was closer to Tony, Tony hasn't said ANYTHING about Surma to Annie on-screen, and James had a complicated relationship with Surma and hasn't really talked about her at all. Anja is the only other character in the comic who seems willing to tell stories about Surma. Additionally, Coyote is, as you said, very manipulative. His outside demeanor is very open and jovial and you don't get much of his darker side, save for some ominous last words here and there. But Annie was standing up to Coyote when he said bad things about Ysengrin, so I don't think she was completely unaware of his bad attributes. I just think she thought she could handle him. Eglamore criticized her for being overconfident and doing whatever she wanted after she spent a summer in the forest. She flicked Coyote on the nose after that. |
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Post by worldsong on Jul 5, 2024 7:46:07 GMT
I can understand why she liked him at first given that he was very nice towards her specifically, but she still expressed fondness for him after the Loup-business got started which should have made her re-evaluate her opinion of him rather drastically.
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 5, 2024 13:07:15 GMT
I wonder if Annie will do the same here. She plainly sees the Court as a selfish entity that must be opposed, and has no scruples stopping the work hundreds of people have put their lives into for decades, maybe even centuries. Not to mention ignoring/sidelining the feelings, desires, and dreams of the person in front of her. I'm not Annie, but personally I'd have a hard time feeling sad for stopping the work of people that deliberately planned to use a child as a living power generator. For a reason that only benefits them and only if they are "pure" of any Etheric taint, no less.
Add to that that stopping the distortion would merely be a setback for the plan to go to a new world. They can still find another suitable source of Ether. No one's dreams are getting crushed. They are just impatient.
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 5, 2024 13:43:01 GMT
Omega responds to Annie's objection that Kat isn't a machine by agreeing, and by stating that Omega wasn't to begin with either (suggesting that Zimmy should become a machine?). Omega suggests, just as Annie did long ago, that Zimmy should make her abilities an asset, not a curse. Zimmy, however, claimed that she'd tried to control her abilities and failed, and the Court hasn't been helping her as Charles helped Omega – although it's pretty easy to imagine that anyone from the Court who tried to do this would have found Zimmy quite hostile to the idea. Annie sums this up by saying that Omega had a choice, and Omega says that if Zimmy doesn't make the choice it should be made for her, which is awfully privileged of her.
Renard says that by being so dismissive of Zimmy's freedom of choice, Omega's shown her true colors: she's an authoritarian, believing she has the right to make decisions for others. But Omega's response is that she's seen terrible things that can go wrong when "someone doesn't do what they should." What they should according to whom? What specific incident(s) is she talking about here? Renard responds that he's glad not to have seen what Omega's seen, as it's clearly made her a contemptible person in his opinion.
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 5, 2024 14:06:22 GMT
Oh, you're right. There goes that theory. But you have a point. If regular rain does the trick, I wonder why her regular shower wouldn't work then?
Maybe water only absorbs ether from the sky or something during its cycle, but in that case couldn't they build a rainwater cistern connected to a shower? It can't just be the water's mechanical action pushing ether from the sky into Zimmy's direction, because in that case artificial rain would probably work. Why would ether in the water do the trick on her tho, since as per Omega Zimmy is an ether generator? Wouldn't depleted water make more sense (to absorb the ether in her)? Is it like a snowfall provoking an avalanche? If they are able to drain ether, wouldn't it be easier for them to do some device for Zimmy she could unload from time to time? nikita do we have any indication that the lake station is filtering just ether that got into the water from zimmy, or is it headcanon?
People say reminiscing about the particularities of sci-fi/ fantasy mechanicals is boring and missing the forest for the trees, but I guess overthinking that kind of thing (among others) is inevitable when we're following a comic for so much time, 3 pages a week lmao
I just enjoy overthinking things. I guess it's one of the reasons why I like GKC. So yes, if Zimmy's an Ether generator, but she's calmed down by rain with "natural Ether" in it, that means there's some difference between the Ether that Zimmy generates and this "natural Ether" that's in the rain. This difference may not be of consequence to the Court's needs; maybe the star ocean works fine no matter whether it's powered by ZimmEther or naturEther. But anyway, what is this difference? The Ether that Zimmy herself generates seems to be bad for her, or perhaps it's the generation of it that's bad. Gamma seems to work like a heat sink, so let's say that ZimmEther is "hot," somehow charged with negative emotion, and naturEther is either charged with positive emotion and therefore "cold" or at least "cool" in the sense that it's not charged with any specific emotions. The Court could well have arranged for Zimmy to live in a region where it rained frequently and the climate was temperate enough that she could be outdoors for it. It's unclear to me why a shower doesn't work, but of course these would have been Court showers, so who knows what they do to the water? But the Court was apparently unwilling to figure out how to make a shower for her with suitable water. Then again, they haven't been on Earth in some time, so where exactly does the rain come from? Is it somehow Court-engineered rain, so every time it rains it's really the Court experimenting with the weather? That is, could Zimmy be wrong about it being "natural?" Clearly the rain from the power station didn't work, because that rain had had the Ether removed from it, but that was also something new to Zimmy; it didn't normally happen. If the weather in the Court's pocket dimension is under their control, then perhaps they do have the ability to make "cool" rain that helps Zimmy. Or perhaps it's because they're in this Ether-based pocket dimension that the rain is "cool" for Zimmy. Anyway, it seems as if there's more complication than is being fully explained. |
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Post by yellowb on Jul 5, 2024 14:50:38 GMT
I may be mistaken, but I remember Zimmy saying the rain in Birmingham didn't help either.
Edit: Which I think kind of makes sense.
Also edit: Maybe it was Jones who said it, or implied it.
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Post by Hatredman on Jul 6, 2024 1:05:23 GMT
I may be mistaken, but I remember Zimmy saying the rain in Birmingham didn't help either. Ozzy's fault, he got to it first. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jul 6, 2024 2:43:13 GMT
On a separate note, this seems like an interesting parallel to Annie's actions with Jeanne. Back then, Annie moved of her own volition, pulled her friends into a dangerous scheme, to help someone without their consent and without heed of the consequences it would bring. I vaguely remember Jeanne's disappearance left the Annan waters unguarded, allowing easy infiltration of the court by forest creatures, which contributed to and may have brought about the current events. No doubt Jeanne is better off now than she was, and maybe Zimmy will be too; we still don't know how Zimmy is actually doing in the distortion. But I feel it brings up an interesting flaw in Annie's character: a headstrong stubbornness that blinds her to the effect of her actions on others beyond her immediate sight. It is as such: doing good actions now does not always guarantee good consequences later. Annie removed the guardian of the Annan waters, which was a good thing for Jeanne. But she did not spare a thought to the reason the Annan waters needed guarding, nor to finding a way to continue that guardianship if it was still needed. I find this lack of consideration a very irresponsible way of affecting large changes on the world. I wonder if Annie will do the same here. She plainly sees the Court as a selfish entity that must be opposed, and has no scruples stopping the work hundreds of people have put their lives into for decades, maybe even centuries. Not to mention ignoring/sidelining the feelings, desires, and dreams of the person in front of her. Now, I have no doubt freeing Zimmy from this distortion is the right thing to do, if Zimmy really is suffering. My only concern is how many dreams she's going to thoughtlessly trample to do it; my only hope that Omega can at convince her to think about the far-off people her actions will affect. Not to turn her away from helping, but to expand her efforts; that she may consider some way to ameliorate the suffering she may cause. Respectfully, I disagree. I actually think a very important part of Annie's character is that while she is reckless, she's not thoughtlessly reckless, or "blind to the effects of her actions"! Surma may have been the type to do whatever feels righteous in the moment without sparing a thought for the wider consequences, but not her daughter (perhaps due to Tony's influence, in part)! On the contrary, Annie has very consistently been shown giving very careful consideration to the larger consequences of her bold, revolutionary actions...and then doing it anyway. In Jeanne's case, for instance, Annie absolutely spared a thought (more than one, even) for why the Annan waters needed guarding. Her response? " A forgotten prisoner from a forgotten time. I'm the Forest medium, and my friend is the Court medium. Times have changed." And, arguably, she was right! The vast majority of Forest inhabitants were generally amiable towards the Court at that time, in large part due to her diplomatic efforts, and the few remaining hostile ones had already been banished to the old ruins and recently cowed by her power. She had no way of knowing that Coyote was playing his own convoluted game this whole time, waiting for the Annan Waters to finally be clear so he could move to the next stage of his bizarre master plan. And while certain people certainly love to blame Annie for "pulling her friends into a dangerous scheme", there was a whole dang scene specifically dedicated to reminding the audience that while the whole Jeanne operation was a huge risk, it was a calculated one, and all of Annie's friends knew that and put their trust in her regardless!
Granted, one might say that Annie acting on the assumption that her skills as a diplomat were enough to render the centuries-old god-killing murder machine permanently obsolete as a peacekeeping device makes her, uh, pretty flawed regardless. But again, that flaw has nothing to do with being thoughtless or blind to consequences; she takes very calculated risks, but her arrogance tends to skew her calculations towards the bolder result.
As for her most recent plans to rescue Zimmy, I'm pretty much with pyradonis here:
I'm not Annie, but personally I'd have a hard time feeling sad for stopping the work of people that deliberately planned to use a child as a living power generator. For a reason that only benefits them and only if they are "pure" of any Etheric taint, no less.
Add to that that stopping the distortion would merely be a setback for the plan to go to a new world. They can still find another suitable source of Ether. No one's dreams are getting crushed. They are just impatient.
Also, at least back in the case of Jeanne, the reason someone was being put in eternal torment was to protect the people of the Court from an actual deadly threat. In this case, the only consequence being threatened here for the "New World" hopefuls is that they'll have to continue living their lives normally, on Earth, just like everybody else. And furthermore, it's not just Zimmy at risk here; as many others have pointed out, Sam's death proves that the distortion isn't so universally benevolent as Omega pretends it is. I think it's actually completely valid for Annie to decide that it's not worth literally endangering everyone's lives in the distortion just so a bunch of other people could be made free of the oh-so-unbearable discomfort of having to tolerate the existence of Ether and etherically-sensitive people on the same world as them. |
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Post by silicondream on Jul 7, 2024 14:14:01 GMT
Zimmy can be considered to have something rather close to psychosis or a different mental disorder. The Court as far as we've seen have done nothing to help her manage it except stay out of her way. Well, Zimmy is not an easy person to help. The first time the Court came to see her in the Birmingham hospital after she hit her head, she'd already ripped her dressings off and climbed out an upper-story window.Zimmy hates being under observation, compulsively walks the streets, rejects any permanent habitation, suffers from mood swings and paranoid delusions, and dislikes 99% of humanity. People with similar issues are super-challenging for any health care system to treat, because they avoid externally-imposed systems and routines like the plague. Often they're just forced into treatment whenever they do anything dangerous enough to justify taking away their autonomy, and then as soon as they're chemically stabilized for the short term, they're released and they disappear again. None of that justifies giving up on them, of course. And the Court is clearly terrible at mental health care, given that its most visible professionals in that area are Lindsey and Jones. But it's not really surprising that it's extra-double-terrible with Zimmy. Tom Fate has crafted her to be screwed over in virtually any society. That's because Omega advocated for her own needs and cooperated fully with her researchers, so that her condition and wellbeing became a high priority for Charles and the Court. She's far less antisocial than Zimmy; in fact, she's highly socially competent, despite her sensory processing issues. She basically love-bombed Charles in this scene, persuading him that she already knew him more intimately than anyone else could, and fell in love with him earlier than he'd imagined possible. He was as devoted as he was because she was a supportive and affectionate partner. From Omega's point of view, she put in the work to get better and build a social support network for herself, and Zimmy has not done the same. The fact that Zimmy couldn't do the same, because her mental health challenges are not the same as Omega's, doesn't change that conclusion. There are adults that work with Zimmy and Gamma, most notably Jones, with whom Zimmy is even cordial. They also have teachers and classes, by Word of Tom; they just don't attend very often and Zimmy never sits tests. Which is a problem, because the Court is mostly set up to help exceptional people become experts on their own conditions. The thing is that the Court gives an exceptional amount of autonomy to human adolescents. It doesn't give them privacy, or unfiltered information, but they basically go where they choose and do what they choose. If they make the wrong choices and wreck their chances for adult success, that's on them. It almost happened to Annie. She got lucky, in the sense that Tony came back into her life, and he was the one person on Earth that she would voluntarily obey most of the time. He was able to redirect her academically and socially, but that involved giving her way more time and attention than the average Court parent provides. Without that, she would have spiraled right out of human society, and the Court would have allowed it, because it was her choice. Zimmy doesn't have a Tony, or all the other quasi-parental figures that Annie's been graced with. She doesn't have the etheric mentors that have helped Annie how to master her powers. She only has Gamma, and Gamma's not a parent or a mental health provider; she's a highly codependent fellow child. There's no one who could really push Zimmy to work with the resources available if she doesn't want to. And yes, that is a massive fail for the Court's social services. I mean…I don't think Zimmy knows her own limits that well, most of the time. She tends to underestimate her own strength and resilience, because 1) she's a kid, 2) she's racked by anxiety and self-loathing, and 3) she's never had anything approaching a supportive environment for taking risks and building skills. That's why Gamma had to coach her through helping Annie. And even with the robots in the Torn Sea…they were right about what Zimmy's amplified distortion could accomplish, and it didn't seem to leave her the worse for wear. Of course, the Court's done a shit job of helping Zimmy to understand her own limits, nor has it even attempted to explain to her why she should cooperate with its program. As you say, the Court at no point talked to Zimmy—but the Court barely talks to any of its residents about the important stuff. It gives them occasional orders, and otherwise manipulates them into doing its bidding, but it does not deign to explain itself. And now that I think about it, that's almost certainly where Omega has her biggest empathy failure. Thanks to her powers, she's never had to cope with the maddening, baffling secrecy of the Court. Information security measures—or in human terms, lies, secrecy and obfuscation—simply don't work on her. She has no reason to ever feel distrust toward a human institution, because she knows exactly how it will treat her in any situation. And so she cannot understand someone like Zimmy, who grew up in a world both hostile and uncertain. To me the fact that Annie likes Coyote despite him being a manipulative bastard has been a sore thumb for a long time. Eh, Annie's an "I can fix them" kind of girl. Coyote's really hard to figure out, and emotionally distant despite his superficial charm; that's exactly her type. She grew up with two parents like that and only psychopomps for friends, after all. Plus Coyote's animal-shaped--vaguely--and that's always a plus for her. Also, Coyote spent centuries being a responsible manipulative bastard, which is basically the best you can expect from a god. Annie's pretty comfortable with manipulation for a good cause—-much more so than Kat—-and has done lots of it herself as a Guide. Of course, she's less comfortable when that manipulation is aimed at her, but she still forgives it easily if the manipulator is willing to admit they're messing with her. And Coyote, Jones and Jack have all been up front about that. I wonder if Annie will do the same here. She plainly sees the Court as a selfish entity that must be opposed, and has no scruples stopping the work hundreds of people have put their lives into for decades, maybe even centuries. Not to mention ignoring/sidelining the feelings, desires, and dreams of the person in front of her. I'm not Annie, but personally I'd have a hard time feeling sad for stopping the work of people that deliberately planned to use a child as a living power generator. For a reason that only benefits them and only if they are "pure" of any Etheric taint, no less. But how many of the Court staff actually knew about the plan to use Zimmy, let alone were in a position to approve it? The Court's not a democracy, and even if it was, our real-world governments do nasty shit all the time without first consulting the electorate. Punishing a whole society for the misdeeds of its rulers is generally considered terrorism (at least when it's Them punishing Us.) Most of the people going are probably relatively decent (if fantasy-racist) adults and their children, who honestly believe that their work will benefit "all of man" in the end. Impatience is understandable when they're under regular assault from an angry god and his demon army; they could reasonably be concerned about how much longer the earthly Court can even survive. Also, the threat of etheric contamination may limit how long they can wait before permanently sealing off the new world. But more importantly, there may be some people already on the new world, or traveling through space on the Star Ocean. Cutting the power mid-move could leave those people dead or stranded or permanently "semi-metaphorical" or who knows what. None of these details are being addressed in the current conversation, of course. So yes, if Zimmy's an Ether generator, but she's calmed down by rain with "natural Ether" in it, that means there's some difference between the Ether that Zimmy generates and this "natural Ether" that's in the rain. This difference may not be of consequence to the Court's needs; maybe the star ocean works fine no matter whether it's powered by ZimmEther or naturEther. But anyway, what is this difference? The Ether that Zimmy herself generates seems to be bad for her, or perhaps it's the generation of it that's bad. Gamma seems to work like a heat sink, so let's say that ZimmEther is "hot," somehow charged with negative emotion, and naturEther is either charged with positive emotion and therefore "cold" or at least "cool" in the sense that it's not charged with any specific emotions. I think negative-ether-as-heat is a useful analogy, and probably one that the Court can easily grok because it's full of physics nerds. I'd also like to suggest a biological analogy, based on Saslamel's explanation of how the ether grows and replicates. Bad vibes are like bacteria or viruses, and Zimmy is their ideal growth medium. They drift in from the environment and the people around her, infect her psyche, multiply and evolve within Zimmyngham, and then flood back out into the world via distortions. Ether-charged rain rinses out her system and stops the bad vibes from breeding for a while, at least in the upper levels of her consciousness. Gamma has the world's best etheric immune system, and bad vibes are either destroyed or forcibly converted to good ones in her presence, reducing the psychic load on Zimmy's conscious mind—-but it's just a local effect, and she can't purify the entirety of Zimmyngham. The Court's ether-draining technology is the equivalent of a biorefinery. As you say, it doesn't really care what kind of etheric vibes are available for processing; it just sucks them all in and renders them down to a simplified fuel for its systems. Zimmy's nasties work as well as anything, as long as she cultures a lot of them. Why has Coyote/Loup's presence made the current distortion stabler and less negative? Well, those bad vibes form an ecosystem, and Coyote is good with ecosystems. He guides the organic chaos of the Forest, he makes hunting and harvesting more successful, and he polices the other dangerous beasts so that the Forest is relatively livable for the tree elves. Put him in Zimmyngham and he does exactly the same thing, perhaps without even meaning to. He herds the worst critters into one district where no one ever needs to go (except for naive meandering New People, of course), organizes the rest into passable imitations of Forest species, and steers their behavior to provide for the needs of the elves. He's still a nature god; he's just changed locations and is mastering the wilderness inside Zimmy's head. The Court also hosts lots of other etheric beings, and connects to the Earth at Gillitie Wood, with its massive etheric ecosystem. Perhaps that naturally causes evaporating water in the area to carry a high ether charge. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 7, 2024 15:45:05 GMT
I'm not Annie, but personally I'd have a hard time feeling sad for stopping the work of people that deliberately planned to use a child as a living power generator. For a reason that only benefits them and only if they are "pure" of any Etheric taint, no less. But how many of the Court staff actually knew about the plan to use Zimmy, let alone were in a position to approve it? The Court's not a democracy, and even if it was, our real-world governments do nasty shit all the time without first consulting the electorate. Punishing a whole society for the misdeeds of its rulers is generally considered terrorism (at least when it's Them punishing Us.) Most of the people going are probably relatively decent (if fantasy-racist) adults and their children, who honestly believe that their work will benefit "all of man" in the end. Impatience is understandable when they're under regular assault from an angry god and his demon army; they could reasonably be concerned about how much longer the earthly Court can even survive. Also, the threat of etheric contamination may limit how long they can wait before permanently sealing off the new world. But more importantly, there may be some people already on the new world, or traveling through space on the Star Ocean. Cutting the power mid-move could leave those people dead or stranded or permanently "semi-metaphorical" or who knows what. None of these details are being addressed in the current conversation, of course. Oh, my heart weeps for them. Didn't we just learn from Tony that contact with the interior Court was disrupted and many people are lost? And those decent adults have nothing better to do but to bail, not caring about the fate of any other poor sod trapped inside the distortion, or even without the distortion, under threat of further attacks from an angry god his demon army? Speaking of attacks, what was the cause for the last time, Loup actually did attack the Court and did significant damage? Oh yeah, it was after the Court's henchpeople tried to capture him (okay, the part of Coyote within me) under the pretense of diplomacy. |
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Post by silicondream on Jul 7, 2024 23:29:54 GMT
But how many of the Court staff actually knew about the plan to use Zimmy, let alone were in a position to approve it? The Court's not a democracy, and even if it was, our real-world governments do nasty shit all the time without first consulting the electorate. Punishing a whole society for the misdeeds of its rulers is generally considered terrorism (at least when it's Them punishing Us.) Most of the people going are probably relatively decent (if fantasy-racist) adults and their children, who honestly believe that their work will benefit "all of man" in the end. Impatience is understandable when they're under regular assault from an angry god and his demon army; they could reasonably be concerned about how much longer the earthly Court can even survive. Also, the threat of etheric contamination may limit how long they can wait before permanently sealing off the new world. But more importantly, there may be some people already on the new world, or traveling through space on the Star Ocean. Cutting the power mid-move could leave those people dead or stranded or permanently "semi-metaphorical" or who knows what. None of these details are being addressed in the current conversation, of course. Oh, my heart weeps for them. Didn't we just learn from Tony that contact with the interior Court was disrupted and many people are lost? And those decent adults have nothing better to do but to bail, not caring about the fate of any other poor sod trapped inside the distortion, or even without the distortion, under threat of further attacks from an angry god his demon army? If a large-scale disaster hits a community and some people get caught up in it, does that make everyone else a coward for evacuating with their families? These are normal humans, without superpowers or high-level combat training, without the personal favor of Coyote or Loup--the sort of people that, per Tom, would be doomed if they even walked a few yards into the Forest. How are they are supposed to mount a rescue mission into the distortion? Even the Court security staff were basically helpless against the Wisps. Dealing with stuff like this is Eglamore's duty, assisted by Parley/Smitts/Annie/Jones as necessary. And all of them are probably on the job right now. Loup's creatures were attacking the Court continuously since his first assault, using the trees he'd grown as invasion points, and expanding the regions that were unsafe for humans. Even Loup's message to Annie came with a bonus monster attack. As for the Shadow Men's capture attempt, that only happened after Annie's diplomacy failed and Loup tried to kill the rest of the delegation. Obviously Aata was prepared for it from the beginning, but I don't blame the Court for correctly anticipating that Loup would continue to be homicidally insane. Any way you slice it, the Forest has been the main aggressor in this conflict ever since Ysengrin ate Coyote. In any case, I'm not trying to decide whether Loup or the Court leadership are more in the wrong; this is a multigenerational conflict and everyone has a long list of grievances. I'm just saying that the people of the Court didn't vote for their leadership or approve its policies toward the Forest, and they have a perfect right to escape the current war zone. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 12, 2024 10:06:11 GMT
As for the Shadow Men's capture attempt, that only happened after Annie's diplomacy failed and Loup tried to kill the rest of the delegation. Obviously Aata was prepared for it from the beginning, but I don't blame the Court for correctly anticipating that Loup would continue to be homicidally insane. Any way you slice it, the Forest has been the main aggressor in this conflict ever since Ysengrin ate Coyote. In any case, I'm not trying to decide whether Loup or the Court leadership are more in the wrong; this is a multigenerational conflict and everyone has a long list of grievances. I'm just saying that the people of the Court didn't vote for their leadership or approve its policies toward the Forest, and they have a perfect right to escape the current war zone. And Loup mainly got into a fit of rage because the Shadow Men had waltzed into the Forest without having been invited - he was only expecting Annie. Yes, he did act like a homicidal maniac, but no one should have been surprised this meeting escalated.
And yes, the people of the Court have a perfect right to escape the current war zone - and they had a lot of time to leave to any other place on Earth by the trains and aircraft which go in and out of the Court. This does not make them entitled to use the Star Ocean by all means and powering it with a forsaken child.
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Post by silicondream on Jul 12, 2024 11:40:40 GMT
As for the Shadow Men's capture attempt, that only happened after Annie's diplomacy failed and Loup tried to kill the rest of the delegation. Obviously Aata was prepared for it from the beginning, but I don't blame the Court for correctly anticipating that Loup would continue to be homicidally insane. Any way you slice it, the Forest has been the main aggressor in this conflict ever since Ysengrin ate Coyote. In any case, I'm not trying to decide whether Loup or the Court leadership are more in the wrong; this is a multigenerational conflict and everyone has a long list of grievances. I'm just saying that the people of the Court didn't vote for their leadership or approve its policies toward the Forest, and they have a perfect right to escape the current war zone. And Loup mainly got into a fit of rage because the Shadow Men had waltzed into the Forest without having been invited - he was only expecting Annie. Yes, he did act like a homicidal maniac, but no one should have been surprised this meeting escalated. It would have escalated regardless; the thing that made Loup go completely berserk was the realization that he was missing a tooth, and he found that out as soon as he received the Lake Water. The Shadow Men probably didn't predict that exact reaction, but they could certainly anticipate that Loup would only become more dangerous once he was further empowered by the water and no longer needed Annie's help to recover more gifts. The Court would have no defense whatsoever at that point; as Aata said, they knew its shield couldn't repel a Coyote-class attack. If anything, the Shadow Men's trick gave Loup enough respect for the Court to ( as Coyote advised) rule out a full-scale war. Would that do any good? No place on Earth is out of Loup or Coyote's reach, and it's only the Star Ocean which kept Loup at a distance. Besides, while some students like Paz may have dual citizenship and family on the outside, many Court citizens are probably social and legal nonentities; not the most helpful status if you're seeking asylum. If there's enough of them, the risk to them is sufficiently high, and the expected decrease in Zimmy's quality of life is sufficiently low, then under utilitarianism it kinda does. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 12, 2024 18:41:19 GMT
Would that do any good? No place on Earth is out of Loup or Coyote's reach, and it's only the Star Ocean which kept Loup at a distance. Besides, while some students like Paz may have dual citizenship and family on the outside, many Court citizens are probably social and legal nonentities; not the most helpful status if you're seeking asylum. We know that the Court has a lot of funds. Its inhabitants can freely travel to various countries in the world and have enjoyed the education of a quasi-state that is scientifically and technologically more advanced than any nation on Earth. Getting jobs outside the Court should be, frankly, not very difficult. Tech companies and governments worldwide would fight over these people. Furthermore the Court has ties to at least the British government (as evidenced in helping out in wartime, being allowed to recruit students, openly sending its operatives into public hospitals to look for a specific kid). The Court could probably organize shiny new British passports and highly paid jobs at government-funded research institutions faster than you can say "skill shortage".
(Chester students might find it more difficult, but the Court obviously doesn't give a duck about those anyway and wouldn't have taken them to the New World either. We're only talking about the baseline humans here.)
As laid out above, I'm not seeing any greater risk to them than having to concern themselves with rude immigration office clerks. We don't know anything about Zimmy's quality of life right now, but the expected decrease in Zimmy's quality of life can only be extrapolated from existing data, which clearly says that any time before was a nightmare for Zimmy and she wants to avoid that it happens.
Btw, I think that unchecked utilitarism which doesn't protect minorities is a shitty way for leading a country. |
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Post by Hatredman on Jul 13, 2024 18:58:23 GMT
If there's enough of them, the risk to them is sufficiently high, and the expected decrease in Zimmy's quality of life is sufficiently low, then under utilitarianism it kinda does. Not trying to be funny or ornery but I felt really sick reading this. |
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Post by silicondream on Aug 3, 2024 11:11:42 GMT
Getting jobs outside the Court should be, frankly, not very difficult. Tech companies and governments worldwide would fight over these people. Furthermore the Court has ties to at least the British government (as evidenced in helping out in wartime, being allowed to recruit students, openly sending its operatives into public hospitals to look for a specific kid). The Court could probably organize shiny new British passports and highly paid jobs at government-funded research institutions faster than you can say "skill shortage". The Court leadership might be able to do that, if it chose—although I suspect the sheer size of the Court would make it difficult regardless. (Total annual immigration into the UK is a little over a million people, and that could almost double if the Court has the population of a largeish city. That's a big ask no matter how much influence the Court has with the British government.) But the Court isn't a democracy, and if a chunk of the general population is seeking to flee to another human nation, they probably can't rely on the support of their leadership. Especially because the Court's emigration plan requires an information blackout as far as the rest of Earth is concerned. And again, if the goal is to protect themselves from the Forest creatures, moving to the UK wouldn't particularly help anyway. I don't think the Border Force can do much against Loup. The distortion in "Find Yourself" didn't seem very nightmarish for her, nor did the one in "The Torn Sea" once she was actually inside it. Zimmy generally suffers at the moment a distortion is triggered, but after that she's no worse than normal provided Gamma's nearby. And the current distortion is a lot nicer than past ones, which may reflect an improved mood on Zimmy's part. There are plenty of utilitarian arguments for protecting minorities: that their per capita suffering during a social conflict is usually much more severe than that of the majority; that diversity benefits society as a whole; that civil rights are easier to advocate, teach and defend when they're universal; that the discomfort of the majority can be solved by time and education, while the suffering of the minority cannot; and so forth. Conversely, there are plenty of deontological arguments against giving minorities exceptional protections, such as hate crime laws, affirmative action, and targeted social services. The few studies I've read on the topic suggest that social liberalism is positively correlated with utilitarianism, although right-wing authoritarianism is negatively correlated with deontology. Make of that what you will. If there's enough of them, the risk to them is sufficiently high, and the expected decrease in Zimmy's quality of life is sufficiently low, then under utilitarianism it kinda does. Not trying to be funny or ornery but I felt really sick reading this. That seems natural. Almost every public policy decision requires the sacrifice of somebody's welfare, but I don't think the sacrifice is ever something to be happy about. |
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