[2962] "So, you show your true colours."

[imaginaryfriend]

As suspected, Omega doesn't really care about Zeta's opinion on what should be done with Zeta. A life full of utility against one's will, what was the word for that again..?

btw "Colours" is not a typo, I believe it to be a UK-ism.

[Elysium]

The choice is yours.
NO NOT THAT CHOICE!

[hoob]

"If you'd seen what I've seen, how bad the economy is when I don't force them into a cotton field, you would agree."

What would go wrong for who, exactly? Omega's once again clearly laying out her worldview that people are only valuable based on their utility, but this time saying that they should be forced into performing it.

Edit: My heart hurts for Omega. There's something tragic and hard to accept when you've suffered alone in your life and manage to 'turn it into something' and see other people get the support through the suffering. It chips away at the blinders to your suffering and forces you to confront the awful fact that your life could have been - but crucially wasn't - spared that suffering.
Feels like it takes away from the meaning you've built out of coping with the suffering.

I hope they can save Zimmy and change Omega's mind.

[gpvos]

Them's fighting words!

[agasa]

Rey once again shows why he's among my favourite characters; he says it like it is, she's being an a*hole.

[silicondream]

I always knew Renard was a Cyndi Lauper fan.

Omega establishes pretty clearly here that she's not just selfish or a psychopath. She values Zimmy's life in the same way she values her own; it's just that freedom of choice is not a particularly important factor in her valuation. And that's understandable, given how long her view is. The choice is over in a moment; the consequences last forever.

And Zimmy does make a great sacrificial lamb, from a utilitarian POV. She's a shit girlfriend and a walking public health threat. She's helped people maybe five times in the entire comic, and all of those were either people she directly benefits from or because Gamma pressured her to do something nice for a change. She's not even happy, most of the time. If she can be turned into a significant force for good, at the price of making her already crappy life a bit crappier, isn't that worth it? Maybe she'll learn to appreciate her new role, just like Omega does.

But as hoob says, it's a weakness in Omega's argument that she won't elaborate on the beneficial results of Zimmy's sacrifice. Were some of those tree elves on the verge of suicide until they got their old home back? Isn't there at least one toddler she can point to who avoided falling down a flight of stairs because the distortion happened? She really isn't trying very hard to be persuasive, especially with Annie as her audience.

In some ways it's surprising that Renard reacts so strongly to Omega's position. After all, his free choices led to terrible crimes, and he seems to be happy in a life where Annie can override his free will whenever she wants. But perhaps he thinks that people deserve to be free until their actions prove otherwise.

Last thought: Omega's value system is almost identical to that of the robots/New People. Utility and experience are their life goals as well. That suggests that the New People may be the proper inheritors of the earthly Court once all the human supremacists have left for the stars. (It was always a bit ironic that the robots exemplified Court values better than their human masters did.) If Omega sticks around, her pragmatism could balance Kat's left-libertarianism and make for a very successful society—but if she can't compromise on the freedom thing, she's likely to become Kat's arch-enemy instead.

[nikita]

So Zimmy generates etheric energy but can't dissipate it. Rain does the trick. It washes her energy away. The now "enriched" rain water gets collected and ends up in the lake with the Power Station. The station extracts that etheric energy from the water.

I can't help but wonder if the court would have been able to produce "depleted" water that Zimmy could shower in every day. Lessening her suffering, speeding up their project. Win-win. But Zimmy said that showers don't help. So maybe the court did not connect the dots or refused to modify her shower or can't in fact produce sufficiently depleted water. It would definitely make sense to shower everyone else in etheric water if the goal of the court is to enhance everyone's abilities.

So... Omega may or may not be correct in suggesting that the Court could have turned her curse into an asset.

[ghostiet]

Omega this, Omega that - what I'm waiting for at the edge of my seat is Anthony's reaction. Dude looks like he's either gonna pull off the greatest upset in history by showing some heart or nail the absolute most ill-timed case of "she's got a point".

[silicondream]

BTW, while people keep bringing up Omelas, there are plenty of mythological parallels to Zimmy's plight as well. Ymir, Tiamat, the Titans, the fallen angels...lots of cases where chaotic forces had to be butchered or enslaved or otherwise made to serve a human-friendly universe, because they would never have done so willingly.

[Geekette]

So basically Omega's argument comes down to "Mother knows best", huh?

Perhaps Annie should leave the room so that Anthony and Omega can have a... spirited discussion on childrearing. I believe Tony's already had some experience with this route and come out the other side.

[morrahadesigns]

"What can go wrong when people don't do what they should."
Well, that's literally life. We're not gifted with foresight for a reason. It would either lead to a complete crippling of our ability to do anything because of all the ripples of outcome we'd see (like our introduction to Omega), or we would become like Omega is now, and favor puppetry over free will.
Neither is a desirable outcome in my opinion.

[ctso74]

Rey always gets the best mic drops.
A person with foresight may be a poor judge of free will's value.

[Gotolei]

Zimmy has opinions on this sort of thing.

[pyradonis]

Jul 3, 2024 10:12:10 GMT nikita said:

So Zimmy generates etheric energy but can't dissipate it. Rain does the trick. It washes her energy away. The now "enriched" rain water gets collected and ends up in the lake with the Power Station. The station extracts that etheric energy from the water.

I can't help but wonder if the court would have been able to produce "depleted" water that Zimmy could shower in every day. Lessening her suffering, speeding up their project. Win-win. But Zimmy said that showers don't help. So maybe the court did not connect the dots or refused to modify her shower or can't in fact produce sufficiently depleted water. It would definitely make sense to shower everyone else in etheric water if the goal of the court is to enhance everyone's abilities.

So... Omega may or may not be correct in suggesting that the Court could have turned her curse into an asset.

If I'm not mistaken, it's only water containing Ether that helps Zimmy. The rain in "Power Station" didn't help her specifically because said power station had depleted the water. In "Spring Heeled", the rain did help because Jones had ordered the collected Etheric energy to be released.

[lisanela]

I know she has suffered and has a peculiar view of the (etherless)world because of her powers but honestly I hope Zimmy eats her.

[batsugars]

It's really sweet how hard Annie is fighting for Zimmy. From day one Annie has been someone who relates to people and creatures who are misunderstood and disliked - Shadow and Robot, Basil the minotaur, Renard, Ysengrin, Jeanne. And while her friends eventually warmed up to these characters, even Kat thinks of Zimmy as "that crazy girl from Chester who really hates me." So it's very kind and noble of Annie to not forget about Zimmy and stand up for her while so much else is going on.

[nikita]

Jul 3, 2024 15:31:05 GMT pyradonis said:

If I'm not mistaken, it's only water containing Ether that helps Zimmy. The rain in "Power Station" didn't help her specifically because said power station had depleted the water. In "Spring Heeled", the rain did help because Jones had ordered the collected Etheric energy to be released.

Oh, you're right. There goes that theory.

[Corvo]

"We are in the same place", says someone living in a penthouse made of tormented souls, to one of these souls.

[hp]

Jul 3, 2024 16:28:29 GMT nikita said:

Jul 3, 2024 15:31:05 GMT pyradonis said:

If I'm not mistaken, it's only water containing Ether that helps Zimmy. The rain in "Power Station" didn't help her specifically because said power station had depleted the water. In "Spring Heeled", the rain did help because Jones had ordered the collected Etheric energy to be released.

Oh, you're right. There goes that theory.

But you have a point. If regular rain does the trick, I wonder why her regular shower wouldn't work then?

Maybe water only absorbs ether from the sky or something during its cycle, but in that case couldn't they build a rainwater cistern connected to a shower?

It can't just be the water's mechanical action pushing ether from the sky into Zimmy's direction, because in that case artificial rain would probably work.

Why would ether in the water do the trick on her tho, since as per Omega Zimmy is an ether generator? Wouldn't depleted water make more sense (to absorb the ether in her)? Is it like a snowfall provoking an avalanche?

If they are able to drain ether, wouldn't it be easier for them to do some device for Zimmy she could unload from time to time?

nikita do we have any indication that the lake station is filtering just ether that got into the water from zimmy, or is it headcanon?

People say reminiscing about the particularities of sci-fi/ fantasy mechanicals is boring and missing the forest for the trees, but I guess overthinking that kind of thing (among others) is inevitable when we're following a comic for so much time, 3 pages a week lmao

[hp]

Jones, who is a being with knowledge gathered since the beginning of times and is privy to the Court's workings, compares Zimmy to the ether absorbing lake station. Omega, who supposedly knows everything, says she's an ether generator. Wonder which is true?

Jones also says rain helping Zimmy is probably due to the natural presence of ether in water

[hoob]

Guys, rain just feels different from a shower, and not because it's mechancially or physiologically different. There's something magical or mythical about the environment just dumping on you in a way that a shower just can't approximate. It's about feeling a connection to nature or to larger forces at work whether you ascribe them deific power or just "that's the high pressure system from the news"

[puntino]

Jul 3, 2024 7:08:11 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

btw "Colours" is not a typo, I believe it to be a UK-ism.

Yes, quite like armour and armor.

The thing is that a shower is man-made, so its purpose and meaning is already tarnished by humans.

I'm very curious as to why Annie is still humouring Omega, at this point. Is Omega's help really this crucial for her to get to Zimmy? How does winning this argument help with anything? At this point, Annie wouldnt be able to trust Omega at all, whether she had a change of heart or not. To Omega, the ends justify the means, so straight up lying would mean nothing to her.

[arf]

The conflict between foresight and free will goes on.

Maybe if Omega, Jones, and the Norns were locked in a room...

[TBeholder]

«Certain things will be done. You will comply willingly, your compliance will be forced, or we will act without you.»

Jul 3, 2024 10:11:43 GMT silicondream said:

She values Zimmy's life in the same way she values her own; it's just that freedom of choice is not a particularly important factor in her valuation. And that's understandable, given how long her view is. The choice is over in a moment; the consequences last forever.

Or her grasp of the very concept may be very tenuous, considering what and how she sees.

Jul 3, 2024 10:11:43 GMT silicondream said:

In some ways it's surprising that Renard reacts so strongly to Omega's position. After all, his free choices led to terrible crimes, and he seems to be happy in a life where Annie can override his free will whenever she wants. But perhaps he thinks that people deserve to be free until their actions prove otherwise.

The flip side is that Renard did own up and accept the consequences. Which ironically may be his only option for much the same reason as with Omega: his existence was always shaped this way. Magical contracts are a part of the way the world rolls for him much like “thrown stones fall down” for humans.

[maxptc]

This seems really morally murky to me. The extreme utilitarianism is very understandable, doesnt make Omega a good person or anything like that but I really get it. I don't think the Court loyalist are right storyline wise to fear magic as much as they do, but my understanding of the Court's postion is "holy smokes, magic is unfair and terribly op, makes nothing but chaos and the gods are going to kill us, and its all confirmed by a seer". So I think (without Annie having altered the time line of course), they might have been right at one point, which is what I take from Omega hinting at horrible things. What is any one life to them in that situation, even if it's the best life or their own life if we politely but possibly incorrectly assume the Court are genuinely for this cause and not doing an evil secert plot. This trolly problem isn't just complicated by some players knowing the outcome of saving which surviors, but also by fact that the situation was manipulated in such a way that what bad faith act against Zimmy was even done? "Offer the tortured orphan a home, leave her alone as much as she likes while trying to educate her and wait for God to abosob her and that will spawn the best timeline"? I bet they left the last part out for the vast majority.

I mean obviously I don't want them to kill or endlessly torture Zimmy but understanding what Omega is has made it hard for me to think the Court as much more then a bunch of intelligent dopes with various levels of emotional illiteracy but good intentions. Not that it excuses them.

[drmemory]

What Omega is saying and doing here isn't all that different from what Annie often says and does. She's basically being a helpful busybody, doing what she thinks is best for people and for the greatest number of people.

See Jeanne storyline for an example. Annie didn't ask what Jeanne wanted to do - she assumed she knew what was best and rallied the Scoobies to help her do it. One could also certainly say that having Jeanne not murdering everyone that happened by was for the greater good for the greater number of people, so that fits as well

Annie would have a much stronger position here if she were to track down Zimmy and see how she is doing with her excess ether being siphoned off, and actually asked her what she wanted to have done. Omega's position is only an issue if she is knowingly doing harm. BTW, she isn't showing her true colours - she's been quite consistent in what she has said to date.  You may not LIKE it or agree with it but you can't say she's hiding things or lying!

[Gemini Jim]

Meg's argument actually starts out sort of well. From her POV, she was given two really bad "choices" in life, and her decision led to a nigh-immortal lifetime as a prediction machine.

But it falls apart when she's talking about Zimmy. Zimmy hasn't just been given a Hobson's Choice, because it's not even clear whether she knows if she has a choice to make.

(* for example, if Meg reveals that Zim has a fraction of Meg's predictive power or something along those lines... "she's my daughter/ clone")

Even if Zimmy does know, Meg is basically saying Zim needs to jump or be pushed - which is completely different from Meg's situation.

[silicondream]

Jul 3, 2024 13:19:54 GMT morrahadesigns said:

"What can go wrong when people don't do what they should."
Well, that's literally life. We're not gifted with foresight for a reason.

Actually, I'd say that natural selection has worked hard to give us as much foresight as possible; that's what these big ol' brains are for. Humans are almost unsurpassed at their ability to predict and manipulate the behavior of other organisms…especially other humans. By the standards of most animals, we're already incredible prophets.

If we could have Omega's ability, we probably would have. We're just not lucky enough to be magic.

Jul 3, 2024 13:34:55 GMT ctso74 said:

A person with foresight may be a poor judge of free will's value.

I would think she'd be more likely to be an unusually good one. Omega certainly has personal experience with error and uncertainty—her powers were never unlimited, and Annie's rescue has been a hard limit on her foresight for over a century. So I imagine that she knows what making a blind choice feels like, at least. She just also knows, in detail, from myriad human examples, how the process of choice works and what the consequences are.

Jul 3, 2024 22:33:14 GMT TBeholder said:

Jul 3, 2024 10:11:43 GMT silicondream said:

She values Zimmy's life in the same way she values her own; it's just that freedom of choice is not a particularly important factor in her valuation. And that's understandable, given how long her view is. The choice is over in a moment; the consequences last forever.

Or her grasp of the very concept may be very tenuous, considering what and how she sees.

Perhaps, though to judge from the past 2500 years of unresolved philosophical argumentation, none of us have a very solid grasp of the concept.

The flip side is that Renard did own up and accept the consequences. Which ironically may be his only option for much the same reason as with Omega: his existence was always shaped this way. Magical contracts are a part of the way the world rolls for him much like “thrown stones fall down” for humans.

That's probably true; I've always thought Renard was swayed to possess Daniel by Surma's invoking his demonic "Reynardine" lore, and Coyote described Ysengrin's frustration at being constrained by his legendary sources. Renard may see human-style free will as all the more precious because he doesn't possess it himself.

[imaginaryfriend]

Couple things:

As a function of being in tune with the ether the way she is/was, Omega is fundamentally unable to deny the consequences of actions. She probably has a great deal of contempt for people who live as if their actions do not have consequences or chronically fob the consequences of their own actions off onto others. She may also have some envy for the latter if they think that way because they were coddled.

For the same reason Omega probably dislikes priorities set according to short-term time preferences. She may feel that people who screw themselves over the long run are unfit to make decisions for themselves.

If her connection to the ether remains broken, assuming she's telling the truth about that and not just preempting any request for aid ending the distortion, she is now without her predictive powers and can now experience things like everyone else does. Assuming her fangirling is legit she is already forgoing long-term benefits by creating a less-positive-than-necessary impression of herself by indulging herself, and may be continuing that trend with how she's flakking for the Court. If Omega can honestly reflect, she may change or moderate her opinions.

[basser]

Possibly hot take: our intro chapter to Omega features her leading people around a literal thought maze by means of behaving in a certain way and saying certain things to get them to do what she wants.

Now we've got Omega adopting a comically stereotypical "look at me I'm a immortal cyborg lady and feelings are for chumps" persona, and she appears to be aiming to pack in every viewpoint known to push Annie into impulsive rage mode. After having straight-up told Annie that all the terrible impulsive decisions she makes are great, actually. Key to destabilizing the Court's magic Big Data machine, even.

So like I'm not tryna say Omega the literal cyborg prediction machine might be playing an incredibly predicable character's emotions like a fiddle, but...