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Post by blahzor on Jun 8, 2024 12:50:40 GMT
all text on this page is how Tom explained her to Magnolia
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Post by lisanela on Jun 8, 2024 14:29:48 GMT
I'm still completely baffled by the idea that anyone would want to abandon their world, family, and friends to go to an unknown place in space where apparently the afterlife cannot exist and there is a risk your ghost will wander forever? Well, a few points: 1. IIRC, no one from the Court has claimed that life on Planet X would be comfortable, or even safe. It would just be a fantastic research venue because it's a completely controlled environment. Since the Court's long-term mission is to benefit "all of man," perhaps they intend to eventually (as in, generations later) return to Earth with their new discoveries. Any suffering along the way is worth that reward. (And hopefully, no ether means no ghosts.) 2. The etheric "afterlife" is pretty shitty anyway; you bum around as a ghost for a few seconds to decades, maybe get devoured by demons, maybe get stuck in a constant flashback of your death, maybe get an admittedly meaningless job at the ROTD, and then a psychopomp grabs you and you lose all your memories and turn into astral fertilizer. I could see preferring to spend eternity as a ghost, especially if there was a possibility of an artificial heaven. 3. I'm not sure the Court believes that your ghost is "you" in the first place. Diego agonized over Jeanne's death at the Annan Waters, but seemed unconcerned about the ongoing torment and servitude of her spirit. To the Court, a ghost may just be an etheric critter that uses a dying human as its template, rather like a pod person. Who cares what happens to pod people? 4. Nothing about the ether necessarily bears on the "real" afterlife envisioned by religious people. If there's a supreme god who creates eternal souls and reincarnates them or sends them to heaven or hell, well, that's gonna happen regardless of the Court futzing around with the ether. Jesus's promise of salvation didn't come with a "unless human scientists figure out how to block my Dad's powers" disclaimer. I'm still completely baffled by the idea that anyone would want to abandon their world, family, and friends to go to an unknown place in space where apparently the afterlife cannot exist and there is a risk your ghost will wander forever? I get that you would want to do it if you're miserable and want to become god but I can't see thousands of people wishing for it - especially when their entire anti-ether plan is based on using etheric people for info (Omega) or energy (Coyote, Zimmy) or even processing (fairies)? Imagine that someone said that they have plans ready to colonize Mars and you can get to join on this one-way scientific mission of taking humanity to its next level. Would you find that enticing? I don't know if that's something I'd be interested in doing but there is a part of me that does find that enticing. Being a part of something bigger than yourself, and preparing humanity for reaching across the galaxies, and going on an adventure. On the other hand, frontier life would come without most of the luxuries we've come to experience from modern day life; it'd be hard to keep up morale. Not to mention all the people one would probably never see again. To get back to your actual question: I also have questioned why someone would agree to it, but for a worthy enough cause people can sign up for a lot. The afterlife thing I imagine is not widely known or pondered upon in the Gunnerverse; the fact that we have a protagonist frequently interacting with psychopomps shifts our perspective. That's a great point re: Diego. The court has been shown time and time again to use etheric beings extensively but also not care about them at all (dismissing Coyote and treating him like an annoyance, naming the fairies with random words..). Maybe they see it as "once you die you become energy, I don't know." or even "Usually you have to meet a wolf or a sexy owl who steals your energy but now you just die and nothing weird happpens!" . They're so upset about not understanding something that living in a world where that thing doesn't exist is worth the risks. Like getting rid of all cats because we don't know why they purr. Or as you said, if they can't understand it fully, they can't master it and advance science with it. I hope for their sake it will just mean they've created our world, although I think our world is better because no sketchy agency has made a machine that predicts everything yet. Personally I think if: 1) I thought it could help mankind 2) The trip wasn't insanely risky (picture a small submarine trying to reach the Titanic) I'd definitely accept to go to Mars X, EXCEPT if they told me something like "we're trying to make a world free of competitive gymnastics and anyone who has ever touched a beam cannot go for fear of contamination". This is where I'd go "mmm this sounds like a cult and I don't want to sign up, I love Simone Biles". I guess this does answer my question though: the idea of "purity" freaks me out but it's easy to convince people they'll be better after getting rid of anything they see as "toxins". |
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Post by silicondream on Jun 8, 2024 20:23:58 GMT
They're so upset about not understanding something that living in a world where that thing doesn't exist is worth the risks. Like getting rid of all cats because we don't know why they purr. I mean, it's not just that; etheric beings cause a lot of harm to humans. If cats were weird and internally incomprehensible and occasionally grew giant-sized and ate you or destroyed your neighborhood or tricked you into killing your daughter or lobotomized and imprisoned you for violating Cat Rules, we probably wouldn't tolerate them much either. It's relatively easy for us to show grace to other creatures in the real world, because we're already the dominant species. And we still don't do it that often. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 10, 2024 6:35:29 GMT
I think I've brought this up before but the really-real world the Court is moving to shouldn't have a naturally developed biosphere as is (probably) depicted here. Even insects have 'pomps; anything complex enough to make a mistake should be able to produce ether (though in teeny tiny amounts). Robots don't, though. I think an organic nervous system might be required; we haven't seen a Death of Rosebushes yet. An ecosystem of plants and fungi and sponges and microorganisms might be ether-free. It's also unclear whether insects could spawn psychopomps by themselves. Perhaps guides like Ketrak were born from human beliefs about what happens to animals after death. Even organisms without nervous systems can have pretty interesting stories. I think Ketrak would still exist even if there never were humans, though I doubt he'd have a name or be able to speak English. I have thoughts on why the robots haven't been of interest to the 'pomps but I'll drag the discussion to the speculation thread. On the contrary, I think they are really scientifically cowardly. They have discovered that there is an element of the cosmos with unknown quantities that evidently has had a profound impact on humanity and the world and rather than embracing this new frontier of exploration they elect to flee, far away from this element's impact. And for what reason? Currently unknown, but an aspect of it is probably that Omega cannot predict anymore. As imaginaryfriend noted, the Court's original purpose was to unify the etheric and physical sciences, but has mostly abandoned that aim in modern times. I don't think the ether scared them, particularly; they've been happy to study, battle and recruit etheric beings. I think they just found that it wasn't very useful for their mission, because there's not very much ordinary humans can do with it. You can't build and operate Anja's computer unless you're Anja. You can't use Diego's arrow without signing a contract with the etheric bureaucracy. You can't move animal souls into human bodies without Coyote's help. For the purpose of making humanity the master of its own destiny, etheric science is a dead end. Kat might be able to change that, but her genius is a superpower unto itself, and it's still an open question whether her more exotic inventions can be understood and replicated by people who aren't techno-goddesses. I don't think calling their motive cowardice or hubris is wrong, but I think petulance might be what got the Court to where it is now. I'm not sure about the ratio of etheric scientists to non but I'm pretty sure there have been more muggles than wizards. Normal humans though they may be from an etheric perspective, they're not normal in the sense that they've been selected for intelligence and scholastic ability. Some etherically-enabled Courtesans have those things also, such as Anja, Don, and Diego, but people with an interesting ability are brought to the Court regardless of intellectual prowess and grades completed. Earlier in the Court history the ratio may have been more in favor of magicians and spell-slingers but as time went on the balance shifted to the muggles as more and more were recruited from all over the world. Imagine the following scenario. There's a lab in the Court where seven normies and three ether-slingers work. Let's say they're all recruited from outside the Court so nobody's a legacy and things are run as a meritocracy. The normies have a higher average IQ and more degrees from prestigious institutions in total. While the etherically-enabled may not be as smart and they have fewer fancy degrees, they can regularly produce better results... sometimes spectacular results, and produce them faster than their muggle peers. They may not be able to explain how they get those results, and if asked they may delve into superstitions and weird religious beliefs, but from a practical standpoint they are often far more useful in getting results like defending the Court or producing goods and services. Over time I think it's just human nature that the normies will band together to change the definition of merit by pissing and shitting all over etheric technology and by extension common sense and practical results. The best way to do that is to label things etheric as being less real and linguistically deconstruct/attack the results, and make sure it stays that way no matter what happens by edging etherically-enabled people out of key positions in the Court. So, results achieved by etheric tech are always tainted and lacking, while those done with perfectly explainable methods are praised even if they don't really achieve much at all. A few generations of that and you've got the Court as it is today, I guess. Additionally, that would suggest that the Court wouldn't want the people they leave behind to start a rival Court that excels in etheric technology so yeah, they're probably planning to collapse the space and dump everyone and everything out somewhere. |
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Post by worldsong on Jun 10, 2024 6:43:16 GMT
Okay - so two things. Maybe three. One - repeated iteration of the idea that Ether makes predictions go buggy. Depending on whether Zimmy and Coyote have Omega's Ether interference problems those prophecies might be nothing burgers. On the ether messing with precognition, I'd speculate that it matters how said precognition works. An important aspect of the story and the setting is that there's no complex but fundamentally solid and measurable mechanism dictating the behaviour of the ether or ether-aligned entities. Shit just works, basically. This would trip up Omega's form of precognition because it's highly scientific in nature. Basically she's Laplace's Demon. Calculations break down when there's a constantly changing variable which can't be measured or pinned down. Coyote and Zimmy are most likely using a more etheric form of precognition, which follows the same rule of "shit just works". Unlike Omega's method they can't explain exactly how it will happen (the advantage of the scientific approach being that you understand the how and the why), but also unlike Omega's approach the undefinable nature of the ether doesn't interfere (the advantage of the etheric approach). |
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Post by Gemminie on Jun 10, 2024 14:09:25 GMT
Catching up here. After explaining that she designed the new world's parameters so the Court could use an algorithm of their own to predict events there without needing her, Omega explains how her predictions work. She likens them to looking at the world from high above, like a map – the physical world is the land, and the Ether is the water. She can't directly see what's going on beneath the water (in the Ether), but she can see its effects on the surface. But she can focus in on every inch of the land. The new world, however, is all land, as it were.
This pretty much confirms that although her talent uses the Ether to operate, she can't actually see into the Ether herself, though she can see the effects it has on the physical world. This means that if they needed to, Annie and Renard could communicate without her overhearing.
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 10, 2024 15:08:02 GMT
By the way, interesting metaphor. So the new world is all land, yes? No water? What was this fluid stuff again that is needed to make life possible on any land?
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Post by Hatredman on Jun 14, 2024 18:50:11 GMT
I also think it's weird to indoctrinate people while they work with so many etheric beings. Maybe there's a special class/suburbs of 100% non etheric people who hate all our protagonists. 1984's Double Think, maybe? Anyway, it was long ago stablished [540] that non-etheric people are indoctrinated in school, at home and socially to hate all freaks. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=540 |
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Post by Hatredman on Jun 14, 2024 18:54:57 GMT
2. The etheric "afterlife" is pretty shitty anyway; you bum around as a ghost for a few seconds to decades, maybe get devoured by demons, maybe get stuck in a constant flashback of your death, maybe get an admittedly meaningless job at the ROTD, and then a psychopomp grabs you and you lose all your memories and turn into astral fertilizer. I could see preferring to spend eternity as a ghost, especially if there was a possibility of an artificial heaven. I wonder about that a lot, for years now! If I lived in a universe that would erase me as a person, an individual, and turn myself into mindless fuel, why would I ever want this "non-afterlife". |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 14, 2024 20:36:41 GMT
2. The etheric "afterlife" is pretty shitty anyway; you bum around as a ghost for a few seconds to decades, maybe get devoured by demons, maybe get stuck in a constant flashback of your death, maybe get an admittedly meaningless job at the ROTD, and then a psychopomp grabs you and you lose all your memories and turn into astral fertilizer. I could see preferring to spend eternity as a ghost, especially if there was a possibility of an artificial heaven. I wonder about that a lot, for years now! If I lived in a universe that would erase me as a person, an individual, and turn myself into mindless fuel, why would I ever want this "non-afterlife". Not everyone gets the same trip into the ether so there's that, but yeah, I should do a deep dive into the ether in the wild spec thread. In addition to all of the other issues we've been talking about for years it seems to want things, at least some of the time, like a big collective un(non?)consciousness. |
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Post by silicondream on Jun 15, 2024 0:34:30 GMT
I also think it's weird to indoctrinate people while they work with so many etheric beings. Maybe there's a special class/suburbs of 100% non etheric people who hate all our protagonists. There certainly are all the built-up areas of the Court near the Star Ocean, which our protagonists didn't even know existed until Loup's attack forced a partial evacuation. The school is on the Forest side, and most of the etheric folks probably live near it. The baseline humans mostly live on the coast, and while they may or may not hate etherics, they probably don't have enough ether-connected family and close friends to be broken up about leaving them behind for Planet Science. Except for weirdos like Jack and Donald. Also, most of the ether-connected Court personnel are there by choice, either because they joined the Court from outside, or because their ancestors sided with the Court when relations broke down with the Forest. They probably agree with the general Court mission of liberating humanity from etheric control, and may see the Court's move to an etherless realm as justified even if they can't personally be a part of it. (Think of all the people working in space programs who will never be astronauts themselves.) Anyway, it was long ago stablished [540] that non-etheric people are indoctrinated in school, at home and socially to hate all freaks. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=540Well, that was one kid being a jerk—presumably typical behavior for him, since Jack's probably his son. And the school staff member who intervened told him to "get out of my sight" and praised Eggles for standing up for his "freak" friends. So I wouldn't say that the school endorsed Hyland Sr.'s attitude at all. I think it probably works like racism in modern Western countries. The system is weighted against certain marginalized groups and most people are resigned to that, but actually taking it to the "I hate [X]!!" level is unacceptable, at least in public. Only robots are treated as complete non-persons. Aata is the most blatantly bigoted adult we've met so far, and even he doesn't openly hate people with etheric abilities…although he despises himself for being unable to swear off using those abilities. I guess ether-users are like drug addicts in his eyes. I wonder about that a lot, for years now! If I lived in a universe that would erase me as a person, an individual, and turn myself into mindless fuel, why would I ever want this "non-afterlife". Most people probably have no idea it works that way…both because they're already dead when it happens, and because the psychopomps appear in the guise of their mythological inspirations. If a culturally appropriate deity shows up and says "come along my child, I'll take you to your family," you'll just figure you're going to heaven or Valhalla or wherever. And then…poof. It's kinda like how we try to slaughter our livestock humanely. There's no need to let them know what's actually happening. (But again, people might go to a "real" afterlife afterwards, just as they might do so in the real world. It's just that no one comes back to talk about it.) |
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Post by Hatredman on Jun 15, 2024 2:15:04 GMT
Well, that was one kid being a jerk Panel 2 tells me that everyone is disgusted. But I agree with you, it is much more structural racism than an official school (or Court) doctrine. The existence of the Shadow Man, though, and the power they have on Court matters and administration, tell me that there is some sort of official ruling on that issue. |
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