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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 11, 2024 7:04:55 GMT
The other Seraphs aren't happy with Robot. I wonder if it's only because of this form that he's taken in the distortion. [edit] Presumably they're viewing this as some sort of abomination. I'm withholding judgement since it might not be his final form. [/edit] |
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Post by arf on Mar 11, 2024 7:11:21 GMT
Annie: "Robot... are you OK?" Seraphimic object: "HELLOOOO!" |
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Post by rafk on Mar 11, 2024 7:39:27 GMT
Even for Gunnerkrigg and even for Zimmingham within Gunnerkrigg this is fisking weird.
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Post by silicondream on Mar 11, 2024 9:51:05 GMT
I suppose it depends on whether that balcony had a lip she could stand on, but it looks like Annie dropped 10+ feet without breaking stride. Good thing she's wearing flats. The other Seraphs aren't happy with Robot. I wonder if it's only because of this form that he's taken in the distortion. [edit] Presumably they're viewing this as some sort of abomination. I'm withholding judgement since it might not be his final form. [/edit] I continue to think this is all Robot's nightmare given form. The "Seraphs" are just voicing his guilt and shame, which align with Zimmy's own mindset and so are amplified by the distortion. The real Seraphs started out believing their exile was "worth it," and it's unlikely that they've changed their minds now that Kat's work has saved the robots from extinction and created the New People. All the 'bots are designed and socialized for self-sacrifice. I don't think the real Seraphs give a damn about abominations, either. They weren't fazed by the Ship's zombie-cyber-whale form in The Torn Sea, nor by the Dover Demon. Biological horror isn't a big thing for robots. |
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Post by guntherkrieg on Mar 11, 2024 9:56:01 GMT
I suppose it depends on whether that balcony had a lip she could stand on, but it looks like Annie dropped 10+ feet without breaking stride. Good thing she's wearing flats. The other Seraphs aren't happy with Robot. I wonder if it's only because of this form that he's taken in the distortion. [edit] Presumably they're viewing this as some sort of abomination. I'm withholding judgement since it might not be his final form. [/edit] I continue to think this is all Robot's nightmare given form. The "Seraphs" are just voicing his guilt and shame, which align with Zimmy's own mindset and so are amplified by the distortion. The real Seraphs started out believing their exile was "worth it," and it's unlikely that they've changed their minds now that Kat's work has saved the robots from extinction and created the New People. All the 'bots are designed and socialized for self-sacrifice. I don't think the real Seraphs give a damn about abominations, either. They weren't fazed by the Ship's zombie-cyber-whale form in The Torn Sea, nor by the Dover Demon. Biological horror isn't a big thing for robots. Yeah, I think you're right. This reeks of magic-powered self-loathing. With the Seraphs still being droids, I wonder if they're more susceptible to Zimmingham manipulation. |
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Post by csj on Mar 11, 2024 12:19:11 GMT
about to scrape off a few barnacles
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Post by mochakimono on Mar 11, 2024 12:35:01 GMT
They look like baby pigeons with barnacles for eyes. Grotesque. I love it.
I initially misunderstood "he" here to mean "Carver" and thought for a wild second we were getting another instance of entities mistaking Antimony for her father, and then another wild second spent wondering when Dr. Carver had led any robots into exile. Of course I see now that I misread, but what a twist it would be if her father had some secret, direct personal involvement with the robot cult.
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Post by ctso74 on Mar 11, 2024 13:15:30 GMT
Real or not, those Seraphs are really trying to rub it in. Is Annie about to pop Robot's form?
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 11, 2024 14:47:27 GMT
After telling the MNP she'll deal with her later, Annie hops down off the balcony into the courtyard. The Seraphs seem to notice her now (I mean, they obviously notice her, because at least two of them address her as "Subject Carver." What I mean is they apparently haven't noticed she was there before.) She walks toward them, the ends of her hair lighting up in flame. She's seemingly preparing to apply some fire to the situation, or perhaps only if necessary.
The Seraphs then tell Annie that Robot is a deceiver, that he led them into exile and is a liar. So they haven't been cavorting around him in exultation but in outrage. Annie stops in front of Robot and looks up at him, her hands balled into fists. Is she mad at Robot? Or is she ready to zap any of the Seraphs who try to come at her? Or is she suspicious that this isn't actually Robot? Maybe she suspects that Robot's being influenced by something (I mean, my theory is that Robot started being taken over by S1 the moment Kat inserted his CPU into the S1 chassis, and it's only gotten worse since then ... maybe the original Robot is still in there, but whatever programming transferred from S1 has taken over)? Or maybe MNP and the Seraphs are lying/wrong and this isn't Robot at all? Does Annie see or realize something that's not being shown to us?
The Seraphs keep calling Robot's distortion form his "true" form, meaning, I suppose, that they consider their bird-skeleton form to be their "true" form. It sounds as if they see the world produced by an etheric distortion to be more "real" or fundamental in some way than the ordinary physical world. But it seems they expected Robot's form to be the same as theirs in this distortion. They seem to have a problem with the fact that it isn't, not to mention that his manipulations have gotten them exiled from the Angel's presence while he's only gotten closer to her.
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 11, 2024 17:39:45 GMT
She's seemingly preparing to apply some fire to the situation, or perhaps only if necessary. Tom's comment implies that it's a preemptive warning to the Seraphs. I suppose it depends on whether that balcony had a lip she could stand on, but it looks like Annie dropped 10+ feet without breaking stride. Good thing she's wearing flats. The other Seraphs aren't happy with Robot. I wonder if it's only because of this form that he's taken in the distortion. [edit] Presumably they're viewing this as some sort of abomination. I'm withholding judgement since it might not be his final form. [/edit] I continue to think this is all Robot's nightmare given form. The "Seraphs" are just voicing his guilt and shame, which align with Zimmy's own mindset and so are amplified by the distortion. The real Seraphs started out believing their exile was "worth it," and it's unlikely that they've changed their minds now that Kat's work has saved the robots from extinction and created the New People. All the 'bots are designed and socialized for self-sacrifice. I don't think the real Seraphs give a damn about abominations, either. They weren't fazed by the Ship's zombie-cyber-whale form in The Torn Sea, nor by the Dover Demon. Biological horror isn't a big thing for robots. I agree insofar as that IF these Seraphs are illusions, then S13 is the only possible candidate for a mind to pull them from. But that is only possible assuming a non-living mind can even influence the distortion like that. Also, did S13 ever even see the other Seraphs turn into these bird forms? And if you think the Seraphs are still convinced everything was "worth it", why shouldn't S13? As far as he knows he has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams. His prophecy has come true and the Angel has indeed ushered in a new era of existence for robotkind.
[edit]Biological horror might not be a big thing for robots, but they could still see something specific in that specific form. For all we know, S13 could have taken the form of "The Betrayer" from robot mythology.[/edit]
Furthermore, and I know this is pure meta-level analysis, but so far in this chapter it has been quite clear if a being that turned up was someone's memory or not. This distortion doesn't have to follow any of the old one's patterns anyway since Loup and Coyote-fragment are involved. We'll see. |
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Post by dramastix on Mar 11, 2024 19:02:28 GMT
I suppose it depends on whether that balcony had a lip she could stand on, but it looks like Annie dropped 10+ feet without breaking stride. Good thing she's wearing flats. Running on the assumption that she ether-lifted herself down to the ground, à la Spring Heeled or Annie in the Forest. Still quite a jump though. |
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Post by Gemini Jim on Mar 11, 2024 19:10:27 GMT
With Mecha Kat, Annie tried to talk her through it, although she powered up in the end to get Kat out of her metal shell. Here, her expression and hair suggest that she's fresh out of F- to give. Although I imagine dealing with annoying raven-haired imposter NPC and the looney seraphs might have something to do with it. This has to be all Distortion related, but I don't know if Talking no Jutsu will be enough this time, or if she'll go straight to "flame on." Incidentally, the Robot from the bridge was definitely a fake, right? Because it would be interesting if Robot remembered the whole bridge incident... |
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Post by drmemory on Mar 11, 2024 20:49:28 GMT
Which part of Robot's true form is his head? It almost looks like he has three of them but my leading candidates for heads lack eyes and other openings/sensory organs.
Not my only worry - I think those things that people are calling barnacles may actually be eggs.
Creepy.
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Post by novia on Mar 11, 2024 21:29:06 GMT
Incidentally, the Robot from the bridge was definitely a fake, right? Because it would be interesting if Robot remembered the whole bridge incident... Everyone talks about the Robot from the bridge, but no one talks about the Robot from the bridge. |
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Post by arf on Mar 12, 2024 0:18:32 GMT
Which part of Robot's true form is his head? It almost looks like he has three of them but my leading candidates for heads lack eyes and other openings/sensory organs. Not my only worry - I think those things that people are calling barnacles may actually be eggs. Creepy. The form Robot is given here has echoes of his 'angelic' form in 'She Gave Us An Ocean' and some of the trippier biblical descriptions of Seraphims (eyes and wheels) |
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Post by mochakimono on Mar 12, 2024 9:27:22 GMT
The form Robot is given here has echoes of his 'angelic' form in 'She Gave Us An Ocean' and some of the trippier biblical descriptions of Seraphims (eyes and wheels) Minor nitpick - Seraphim are the ones with six wings (frequently obscuring the face or body), and Ophanim are the ones made of wheels and eyes. But otherwise yeah. |
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Post by silicondream on Mar 12, 2024 13:15:24 GMT
I agree insofar as that IF these Seraphs are illusions, then S13 is the only possible candidate for a mind to pull them from. Well, I don't think that's true; the distorted Seraphs in The Torn Sea were witnessed close-up by Kat, and from a distance by Annie and about a hundred robots, many of whom are probably New People now. The distortion could be drawing on the memories of those folks. I don't think anyone except Robot is likely to be worried about the Seraphs unmasking and condemning him, though. I think it must be able to, because the Ship AI appeared as an incomplete whale before Kat even started working on it. The whale was its dream form, not something any of the humans were thinking about. Probably? He would have seen them from a distance when they were flying over the gang, and perhaps he saw them revert at the end, because he was in the ballroom with Shadow by the time Kat destroyed the whale body. Also, the Seraphs could have shared their own memories with him, or simply told him about their transformation. Or any of the other witnesses could have. However he learned of it, I imagine it would have stuck in his mind, given his obsession with robot transition. But the other Seraphs don't get to share in that era, and that's because they carried out his scheme. They can take comfort in their martyrdom; he has to live with the secret that he was responsible for it. Kat exiled his brothers and he did nothing. Also, Robot's not a typical Seraph; he's emotionally close to non-robots, committed to individual autonomy, and governs his people without force. But he chose to compromise all those things in The Torn Sea, betraying his human friends and taking the students hostage. Even if he still thinks that he did what was necessary, there's probably a lot of guilt and shame there. Eh, if robots saw marine life or lots of wings as evil, then Kat's team wouldn't have set up their transition tutorial as a virtual ocean with a six-winged guide, and the Ship wouldn't have dreamed of becoming a whale so he could hook up with a giant crustacean. If anything, robots probably think wings are great because the S-models have them and the Tic-Toc is sacred. And while it would be kind of awesome if robots had a devil that specifically looked like a barnacle colony, I'm not sure why they would. Their greatest mythical evil is Sir Young, and he's not particularly barnaclish, in reality or in the golems' bullfighting show. To me, the winged barnacles seem like a mashup of Robot's dream form with the Ship's (failed) dream form. Well, on that same level, I would point out that multiple Zimmyngham scenes have started by presenting clearly fake characters like the Nobodies or a hybrid Zimmy avatar, then revealing more subtle fakeouts to advance the plot or escalate the drama. The fakes would be far less disturbing if they were consistently obvious. IIRC it's the first distortion to actually kill someone, too. I just didn't think she could generate enough telekinetic force to make much difference in a drop like that. Maybe she cushioned her fall with thermal updrafts, like assorted fiery superheroes. |
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 12, 2024 17:26:52 GMT
I continue to think this is all Robot's nightmare given form. The "Seraphs" are just voicing his guilt and shame, which align with Zimmy's own mindset and so are amplified by the distortion. Quite possibly. The real Seraphs started out believing their exile was "worth it," and it's unlikely that they've changed their minds now that Kat's work has saved the robots from extinction and created the New People. S13 is but another Seraph, who instead of policing other robots and waiting for a gift from the sky chose a bold “heretical” path of questing for the wonder… which was rewarded by discovering Kat and then Jeanne’s shrine — thus proven correct, as far as anyone involved is concerned. You accept that S13 can feel guilty about leaving the Seraph holding the bag like this. So why would they believe they did everything perfectly without any doubts in any step? And after they chased themselves into this dead-end, why can’t they blame S13… whom they were following, after all? All the 'bots are designed and socialized for self-sacrifice. How so? |
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Post by silicondream on Mar 13, 2024 2:38:23 GMT
S13 is but another Seraph, who instead of policing other robots and waiting for a gift from the sky chose a bold “heretical” path of questing for the wonder… which was rewarded by discovering Kat and then Jeanne’s shrine — thus proven correct, as far as anyone involved is concerned. You accept that S13 can feel guilty about leaving the Seraph holding the bag like this. So why would they believe they did everything perfectly without any doubts in any step? Because The Torn Sea scheme is more or less business as usual for the other Seraphs, but counter to Robot's usual way of doing things; because the other Seraphs aren't actually friends with Kat and the gang, hence would feel less guilty about threatening and coercing them; and because the other Seraphs were already judged by Kat, hence have an outlet for any guilt they may be feeling. Robot has no one to judge him but himself. I think most robots are likely to feel worse about leaving someone else with the bag than about being left with it themselves. They really don't like shirking their responsibilities. I also suspect that Zimmyngham is more likely to feed off self-hatred than hatred of others, because self-hatred is Zimmy's main schtick. I think Robot would blame himself mostly for the methods they used, not the results. The other Seraphs were probably more comfortable with those methods, since they regularly coerce others through force and have no close relationships outside their brotherhood. They weren't betraying their principles or their friends, as Robot was. All the 'bots are designed and socialized for self-sacrifice. How so? They live to work for others, no? Their golem ancestors committed suicide because turning their corpses into a monument was the only way they could still serve their dead creator, and they created robots as a race to serve humans for perpetuity. Even as New People they seem to have little sense of self-preservation, although they grieve for one another at death. |
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 13, 2024 4:49:27 GMT
So why would they believe they did everything perfectly without any doubts in any step? Because The Torn Sea scheme is more or less business as usual for the other Seraphs, but counter to Robot's usual way of doing things; because the other Seraphs aren't actually friends with Kat and the gang, hence would feel less guilty about threatening and coercing them; And then we see this. They meddling did require an intervention… But how much did they deviate from the way of their new prophet, if at all? and because the other Seraphs were already judged by Kat, hence have an outlet for any guilt they may be feeling. Robot has no one to judge him but himself. Usually, yes. This situation is anomalous. It may or may not matter that this time S13 is distorted too. Also, we have seen some former robots rub it in. I think most robots are likely to feel worse about leaving someone else with the bag than about being left with it themselves. They really don't like shirking their responsibilities. [...] They live to work for others, no? Their golem ancestors committed suicide because turning their corpses into a monument was the only way they could still serve their dead creator, and they created robots as a race to serve humans for perpetuity. Even as New People they seem to have little sense of self-preservation, although they grieve for one another at death. They certainly feel strongly about having a purpose, and stick to it. Beyond this? I’m not so sure. And specifically Seraphs are unusual in their functions and views. And purpose. Which they may or may not be able to follow in the current situation. «Earning the privilege» may or may not matter to them in itself or as means for something else. We still don’t know. I also suspect that Zimmyngham is more likely to feed off self-hatred than hatred of others, because self-hatred is Zimmy's main schtick. That’s a good point. |
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Post by OGRuddawg on Mar 13, 2024 12:39:42 GMT
With Mecha Kat, Annie tried to talk her through it, although she powered up in the end to get Kat out of her metal shell. Here, her expression and hair suggest that she's fresh out of F- to give. Although I imagine dealing with annoying raven-haired imposter NPC and the looney seraphs might have something to do with it. This has to be all Distortion related, but I don't know if Talking no Jutsu will be enough this time, or if she'll go straight to "flame on." Incidentally, the Robot from the bridge was definitely a fake, right? Because it would be interesting if Robot remembered the whole bridge incident... In that scene, Robot was under the control of a malicious, unnamed Shadow Man. After Kat puts his chip in the docking station, S13 saw what his body was doing but was unable to stop it. Presumably, S13 does remember that whole debacle. I don't think he feels particularly guilty about that, since he found out shortly after his chip was put in the docking station that Annie ended up okay. If anything, he seems to have some level of respect for Annie since she was the first to give her a choice. Annie shows a pretty concerned look towards Robot's distorted form, so I think she's mostly fed up with the distractions from helping Robot or getting to the root of the distortion problem. Robot's prophet position with the robots/Numen might be why the distortion is affecting him so much more than the Numen and the Seraphs. The other reason might be his hybrid status. He's basically as close as Kat got to a Numen body but without going through the transformation to full Numan. Or it could be both... |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 13, 2024 15:46:33 GMT
I agree insofar as that IF these Seraphs are illusions, then S13 is the only possible candidate for a mind to pull them from. Well, I don't think that's true; the distorted Seraphs in The Torn Sea were witnessed close-up by Kat, and from a distance by Annie and about a hundred robots, many of whom are probably New People now. The distortion could be drawing on the memories of those folks. I don't think anyone except Robot is likely to be worried about the Seraphs unmasking and condemning him, though. Sure, many others saw them. What I meant was that no one except the real Seraphs and S13 himself know about the connection between them regarding the Torn Sea incident. All memory figures (which were identified as such) so far did what they had done in the memory they were pulled from - memory-S13 shoved Annie off the bridge, memory-Jeanne attacked with murderous intent, memory-Annie and memory-Ysengrin chased a moss ogre away. They all more or less followed a script set by what the respective real being remembered. If these Seraphs turn out to be memory-formed as well, this would be an obvious deviation from what was shown before. Fair point, they can at least influence what happens to themselves to an extent. Though I wonder how the ship and the Seraphs could even know that beforehand. Did they get their metallic hands on Court test results? Oh I'm quite sure he was told about their transformation, but these Seraphs look exactly like they did back then, you can't get such an exact image from a verbal description. I admit he could have been in the ballroom when they reverted though, it's a bit unclear who was where at this moment. Kat is not one to hold a grudge though... Despite saying she never wanted to see them again, in the time after Loup's first attack she again allowed them to hang out around her workshop. Personally I think at one point Kat would have offered the transition to the Seraphs as well. At this point you can counter that if those Seraphs are real, they should be aware of this as well and yet are angry at having been led into exile, so... I dunno, maybe someone is being unreasonable, maybe "exile" for someone means something else than for us... Humans from Western cultures also don't see horns or hooves or other humanoids as evil, but a humanoid with horns and a hoof and red skin suddenly becomes the quintessential evil. Also, the chapter is called "Devil's Due", so having Robot Devil turn up wouldn't be totally surprising either. Hm, you're certainly right there. This, by the way, is also a problem for this whole arc. IMHO Tom has overplayed his hand with all these illusions and fakeouts. It's really hard getting captivated by several chapters in which you can't really know if ANY of the characters in it are real.
All the 'bots are designed and socialized for self-sacrifice. How so? They live to work for others, no? Their golem ancestors committed suicide because turning their corpses into a monument was the only way they could still serve their dead creator, and they created robots as a race to serve humans for perpetuity. Even as New People they seem to have little sense of self-preservation, although they grieve for one another at death. We haven't really seen any implication in the comic that the Seraphs live to work for others, they've always been following their own agenda. Also the Golem Kat woke up first denies that they desire to be in servitude to humans. They desire to be active and to be useful (also S13 said "It's good to be useful." regarding his old body having been transformed into paperclips). That helping humans fulfills these desires for most of them is more like a lucky coincidence, but the Seraphs specifically seem to see their usefulness in other avenues. And the New People don't seem to have any inclination for working for the Court anyway, they seem to be satisfied working for their own community + the Angel and the Angel's friends. |
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Post by silicondream on Mar 13, 2024 17:53:10 GMT
Because The Torn Sea scheme is more or less business as usual for the other Seraphs, but counter to Robot's usual way of doing things; because the other Seraphs aren't actually friends with Kat and the gang, hence would feel less guilty about threatening and coercing them; And then we see this. They meddling did require an intervention… But how much did they deviate from the way of their new prophet, if at all? I don't think they deviated from his instructions, but I think that giving those instructions would have bothered him more than carrying them out bothered the other Seraphs. As Lana mentioned, Robot's typically a "nice guy;" his brothers are less so. Yeah, but Lana's like 99th percentile on sass for a New Person, let alone a robot. Only the laser cows can out-sass her. I could imagine the other Seraphs rubbing it in if they thought Robot was being transformed by an angelic curse or something, but they know more about the distortions than most, so I don't think they'd make that mistake. Also, the real Seraphs would prioritize finding and guiding any NPs caught in the distortion. They haven't stopped trying to do their jobs since they were exiled, and they'd know this isn't a safe place. |
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