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Post by blahzor on Mar 5, 2024 17:22:00 GMT
oh just realized Robot is looking MIGHTY like kat's computer the last time we physically saw it. before she hid it. What is like my old theory Robot knew this event was going to happen and went to where the computer was and connected to it to get this form and basically merge with it
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Post by drmemory on Mar 6, 2024 2:10:46 GMT
OK, so this is definitely Distortion-related, right? Robot's (This Isn't Even My) Final Form is just some sort of etheric madness brought to life, like MechaKat. I think so, yeah. Everyone's at their worst in Zimmyngham; it's house rules. This isn't Robot's true form, it's a nightmare about Robot's true form based on somebody's worst fears--possibly, his own. That depends on whether you think Kat's true form is the mecha one or the human one. Kat only shows up in her angelic form in the ether and in the distortion... It would be interesting to know what Robot looks like to Zimmy though. |
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Post by silicondream on Mar 6, 2024 9:25:54 GMT
I think so, yeah. Everyone's at their worst in Zimmyngham; it's house rules. This isn't Robot's true form, it's a nightmare about Robot's true form based on somebody's worst fears--possibly, his own. That depends on whether you think Kat's true form is the mecha one or the human one. Kat only shows up in her angelic form in the ether and in the distortion... It would be interesting to know what Robot looks like to Zimmy though. Key phrase there: "in the ether and in the distortion." Kat has appeared as the Machine Angel outside of Zimmy's distortions as well, so it's reasonable to consider it one of her true forms. (She can have more than one, of course, just like Annie and the goddogs.) Robot's never appeared like this before, and he's in a world where things are rarely what they seen, so I strongly doubt this is any sort of unfiltered truth. To compare, this wasn't Renard's true form either; it was just a screwed up mishmash of his fox self, the body he was currently inhabiting, and trademark Zimmyngham horror. Elements of truth, distorted in the worst possible direction. |
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Post by justcurious on Mar 6, 2024 10:25:11 GMT
Our mysterious new person talks like either Gamma or Shell. What she knows suggests either Loup or Gamma. So, I'm going with Gamma. Some bits of her behaviour don't fit that howe
But Tom retains his ability to pull surprises. And Robot's current form is one of them.
But as others have suggested this is probably the chapter where Robot's past actions come home to roost just as Annie's school cheating did earlier.
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Post by drmemory on Mar 7, 2024 2:22:54 GMT
That depends on whether you think Kat's true form is the mecha one or the human one. Kat only shows up in her angelic form in the ether and in the distortion... It would be interesting to know what Robot looks like to Zimmy though. Key phrase there: "in the ether and in the distortion." Kat has appeared as the Machine Angel outside of Zimmy's distortions as well, so it's reasonable to consider it one of her true forms. (She can have more than one, of course, just like Annie and the goddogs.) Robot's never appeared like this before, and he's in a world where things are rarely what they seen, so I strongly doubt this is any sort of unfiltered truth. To compare, this wasn't Renard's true form either; it was just a screwed up mishmash of his fox self, the body he was currently inhabiting, and trademark Zimmyngham horror. Elements of truth, distorted in the worst possible direction. When did we see mechaKat outside of both the ether and a distortion? When Annie saw her during the Jean thing, they were in the ether. When Paz saw her at the end of the boat thing, they were just leaving a distortion. When she was summoned by the Arbiter recently, they were in a distortion. I'm not saying you are incorrect, I just can't think of where else she's been seen in that form.
Of course she always looks like that to Zimmy, but she is special. 
As for the sad-looking bedraggled possible Renard in the page you linked, it was never stated that it was actually Renard. Maybe?
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Post by Hatredman on Mar 7, 2024 15:06:05 GMT
When did we see mechaKat outside of both the ether and a distortion? Silicondream never said "outside the ether". |
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Post by drmemory on Mar 7, 2024 19:38:27 GMT
When did we see mechaKat outside of both the ether and a distortion? Silicondream never said "outside the ether". I said that we've only seen mechaKat in the ether and in a distortion. silicondream said we've seen her outside of Zimmy's distortions, which does not contradict what I said, though I am not sure I understand why he said what he said.
I have not stated an opinion on which form I think is the true form. I would not be too surprised to learn that the mecha stuff was armor, but it may also be her true form. Not yet revealed! Incidentally, the Arbiter incident sort of makes me lean towards the armor theory, as it almost looks like it peeled away when she arrived in Arbiter space. She didn't look like that last time she and Annie were in there with the Arbiter and the Interpreter either. If it's armor or something along those lines, there is no true form - there is just how she is attired.
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Post by silicondream on Mar 7, 2024 22:21:27 GMT
Silicondream never said "outside the ether". I said that we've only seen mechaKat in the ether and in a distortion. silicondream said we've seen her outside of Zimmy's distortions, which does not contradict what I said, though I am not sure I understand why he said what he said. I have not stated an opinion on which form I think is the true form. I would not be too surprised to learn that the mecha stuff was armor, but it may also be her true form. Not yet revealed! Incidentally, the Arbiter incident sort of makes me lean towards the armor theory, as it almost looks like it peeled away when she arrived in Arbiter space. She didn't look like that last time she and Annie were in there with the Arbiter and the Interpreter either. If it's armor or something along those lines, there is no true form - there is just how she is attired.
I wasn't contradicting you; I was arguing that Robot's current form is less likely to be a "true" one than Kat's angel-form, because the former has only been seen within a distortion, but the latter has also been seen in the Ether when Zimmy was uninvolved. And I was also saying that I don't think there's a single true form for anyone; that was Coyote's lesson here. Kat is mecha from some vantage points and a girl from others; Annie is a flame from some vantage points and a girl from others. They're both true. (My preferred pronouns are "they" or "she," btw.) Someone asked about it on Formspring, mentioning the resemblance to Renard, and Tom responded that it was a "future distortion," which I took to be affirmation. And, I mean, it's a giant fox-headed Sivo-colored thing with a spike through one limb. I can't imagine who else it could be. |
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Post by Hatredman on Mar 8, 2024 3:26:04 GMT
I can't imagine who else it could be. Well, Boxbot of course! |
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Post by silicondream on Mar 8, 2024 8:22:46 GMT
I can't imagine who else it could be. Well, Boxbot of course! That is a terrible thing to say. What did giant zombie cyborg fox-creature ever do to you? |
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Post by drmemory on Mar 9, 2024 5:54:11 GMT
I said that we've only seen mechaKat in the ether and in a distortion. silicondream said we've seen her outside of Zimmy's distortions, which does not contradict what I said, though I am not sure I understand why he said what he said. I have not stated an opinion on which form I think is the true form. I would not be too surprised to learn that the mecha stuff was armor, but it may also be her true form. Not yet revealed! Incidentally, the Arbiter incident sort of makes me lean towards the armor theory, as it almost looks like it peeled away when she arrived in Arbiter space. She didn't look like that last time she and Annie were in there with the Arbiter and the Interpreter either. If it's armor or something along those lines, there is no true form - there is just how she is attired.
I wasn't contradicting you; I was arguing that Robot's current form is less likely to be a "true" one than Kat's angel-form, because the former has only been seen within a distortion, but the latter has also been seen in the Ether when Zimmy was uninvolved. And I was also saying that I don't think there's a single true form for anyone; that was Coyote's lesson here. Kat is mecha from some vantage points and a girl from others; Annie is a flame from some vantage points and a girl from others. They're both true. (My preferred pronouns are "they" or "she," btw.) Someone asked about it on Formspring, mentioning the resemblance to Renard, and Tom responded that it was a "future distortion," which I took to be affirmation. And, I mean, it's a giant fox-headed Sivo-colored thing with a spike through one limb. I can't imagine who else it could be. Sorry about the pronouns. I'm a boring old "he". Old in every sense of the word - old enough to default to "he" for unknown gender. I'm not used to the 39 genders Facebook supports or however many it is these days and don't really think about it. Definitely no offense meant! That being said, I will remember your preference if my aging brain cells cooperate, and try to avoid pronouns on the forum in general.
As for the true form thing... hmmm. Coyote is the only one we've seen who is totally fluid. Renard is able to shift to some extent, and Annie does seem to have a fire elemental form as well as a human form, and perhaps some in between. Robots seem to have only two - the way they look in meatspace and the way they look in a distortion. I haven't really thought much about which appearance is "real" but the Seraphs seem to think Robot's current Giant Mecha Bird (GMB) appearance is "real". They call it his "true form".
Kat is a bit of a puzzle. She is clearly special. We saw her in her mecha form (or wearing her mecha armor?) long ago, before she made the birb, when she entered the ether using her arrow (as opposed to Diego's arrow). She also started being called the Angel even earlier than that. That all makes me think that the mecha form is her true form, for some value of true, and that the robots have always been aware of it. I bet that they (and S13) won't even be surprised if she manifests it in the distortion. She doesn't always look like that in distortions tho - not now and not on the boat except for when Paz saw her. Special!
Not everyone looks the same in the ether as in a distortion. The NP look the same in the current distortion as they do out in meatspace, but when Annie looks at them in the ether they look quite different. Therefore, Zimmy's distortions are not the same as being in the ether. I wonder what class this distortion is on the Court's scale?
Here we have a Seraph saying that Subject Zeta (Zimmy) will perform a Level 6 Etheric Distortion on request. But then they had to use their Etheric Syphons to actually make it happen, so that was a sort of misleading statement. I'm sure they anticipated Zimmy being about as cooperative as she was.
Anyway, I bring this up because it's evidence that the Court, or at least the Seraphs, understand the distortions and their relation to the ether far better than we do.
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Post by drmemory on Mar 9, 2024 5:57:30 GMT
Editorial Note: If I could see into the ether (like Annie), I'd be constantly checking out everything and everyone new I encountered to see what they looked like in the ether! It would be too interesting to pass up, and sometimes maybe quite important!
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Post by Hatredman on Mar 9, 2024 14:22:52 GMT
Therefore, Zimmy's distortions are not the same as being in the ether. I wonder what class this distortion is on the Court's scale? Here we have a Seraph saying that Subject Zeta (Zimmy) will perform a Level 6 Etheric Distortion on request. But then they had to use their Etheric Syphons to actually make it happen, so that was a sort of misleading statement. I'm sure they anticipated Zimmy being about as cooperative as she was. Anyway, I bring this up because it's evidence that the Court, or at least the Seraphs, understand the distortions and their relation to the ether far better than we do. You make a very interesting point. Yes, it seems that the court indeed knows a lot more about these distortions. Wild speculation: Diego also did know a lot, that's what the Arrow does. |
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Post by drmemory on Mar 9, 2024 20:49:39 GMT
Therefore, Zimmy's distortions are not the same as being in the ether. I wonder what class this distortion is on the Court's scale? Here we have a Seraph saying that Subject Zeta (Zimmy) will perform a Level 6 Etheric Distortion on request. But then they had to use their Etheric Syphons to actually make it happen, so that was a sort of misleading statement. I'm sure they anticipated Zimmy being about as cooperative as she was. Anyway, I bring this up because it's evidence that the Court, or at least the Seraphs, understand the distortions and their relation to the ether far better than we do. You make a very interesting point. Yes, it seems that the court indeed knows a lot more about these distortions. Wild speculation: Diego also did know a lot, that's what the Arrow does. I've been trying to resist bringing up Diego, as it's bad enough I keep bringing up my other pet theories. But yes, I agree, Diego understood a lot more about the ether and the energy thereof than we do, and may well have understood distortions. Or at the least, would understand a distortion when he saw one!
Diego is ultimately the source of much of Kat's more esoteric knowledge, and was the first that we know of to use the ether to power golems, among other things. Too bad he lost his ethical center and did what he did to Jean and her lover.
As for Diego's knowledge, he understood the ether well enough to use it as an energy source and made some living or nearly living creations. The arrow is especially scary - that's a device (probably not alive) that could affect living beings and capture their souls after death. Kat's mini-arrow let her enter the ether and when she did that, appear in her mecha form, and that thing was directly based on Diego's knowledge (his notes and the arrow) if I remember right. I can't remember any other instance of someone creating a device that could affect souls and powering it using etheric energy. My wild spec is that you have to be alive to manipulate etheric energy in that manner. The only ones we have seen move souls around like that are Coyote with his totems, Diego with his arrow, and Kat with her NP. I wonder if the computer she uses to move NP into newly manufactured bodies, giving them life, is powered by Diego's arrow?
Given what I said above about what Coyote, Diego and Kat have in common: Coyote is clearly a god. Kat is also a divine being in a sense - created life, etc. So what the heck was Diego? It's probably not important right this minute, for the current plot, but echos of his knowledge and actions are all over the place.
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Post by silicondream on Mar 9, 2024 23:40:22 GMT
Sorry about the pronouns. No worries at all! Just thought I'd mention it since it came up. I won't be offended if you forget. Coyote used Ysengrin as his example of multiple selves, so I don't think it's about physical shape-shifting. Ysengrin has a physical self (old, sick wolf), an etheric self (perfect glowy wolf), and a social self (proud priest-general in wooden armor). Annie, at least, does not see one of those as obviously more "true" than the others. Kat, likewise, would be physically a girl, etherically an Angel, and socially...a super-scientist or 1337 gamer, I suppose. They have high-speed data transfer capabilities, so I would suspect they have the equivalent of online avatars as well. Even if they're just a name and a passcode. We'll have to find out, but again I think that's probably just part of the current nightmare. The real Seraphs would either know about Robot's actual preferred form, or would assume he just wants to look like another New Person. It would be very surprising if he's been telling the other Seraphs that he hopes to become a literal winged pile o' shellfish. Less misleading than culture-dependent, perhaps. Court robots have no freedom themselves, so they have no way to understand "requests" as truly voluntary. And since they don't have a human understanding of pain, the Seraphs may not have initially realized how unpleasant it would be for Zimmy. Well, the Court admitted Zimmy for a reason in the first place. It would be odd if they didn't understand a great deal about her powers by now, since they're so interested in studying her and they've got outside thinkers like Jones on the case. But yes, I agree, Diego understood a lot more about the ether and the energy thereof than we do, and may well have understood distortions. Or at the least, would understand a distortion when he saw one! I think his era's Court may have understood the entire Forest as a distortion; that might be part of why they cut down all the trees on their side. He was obviously ethically conflicted about that, but I think it's more that his resentment towards Jeanne aligned with his fear of Sir Young and his loyalty to the Court. It's Formsprung that the sacrifice did actually need to be Jeanne; the whole project would not have worked otherwise. I don't think that the Founders were amoral. Like Aata, their commitment to helping humanity overrode most concerns about civil rights or nonhuman welfare. Even after his death and facing whatever came next, Young was absolutely confident that he'd done the right thing. Diego lived through a time period in which the Forest and Court had not yet split from each other, and the Court itself relied more heavily on etheric technology, which probably made it easier to gain such an understanding. I believe Tom has commented that the Court started to devalue etheric tech later on, when conventional technology had advanced enough to make it mostly obsolete. Ironically, Diego's own creations may have been responsible for this, since the robots who now manage Court infrastructure do not rely on the ether. Tony made one from his own hand, with guidance from those mysterious demonic beings. Perhaps Diego communicated with them as well; no doubt they would have enjoyed manipulating him into murdering Jeanne and leaving him crippled with guilt, as they tried to do with Tony and Annie. It was connected to her computer when she reincarnated Arthur, and unless she's managed to replicate the arrow's technology it would still be an essential component at the present time. Also, I believe her contract with Saslamel is arrow-specific, so if it applies to the New People as a whole she probably used the arrow for all of them. He probably has as much claim to divinity as Kat does, even if the ether hasn't recognized it until now. The robots venerate him as their original Creator and Kat's predecessor, and now that New People are dying they'll carry those beliefs into the ether. That said, the etheric bureaucracy was probably not as impressed by Diego as they are by Kat, since golem creation was already a known thing and golems are traditionally considered soulless. Plus, of course, the arrow pissed them off. So Diego would just be a rogue sorcerer as far as they're concerned. |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 11, 2024 21:48:38 GMT
Given what I said above about what Coyote, Diego and Kat have in common: Coyote is clearly a god. Kat is also a divine being in a sense - created life, etc. So what the heck was Diego? It's probably not important right this minute, for the current plot, but echos of his knowledge and actions are all over the place. The robots see him as their "esteemed creator" or "father", however they have never called him something akin to a divine being, even though he could probably claim that title. One deity formed their bodies, the other breathed life into them is probably a theme in more than one creation myth. Although I personally feel (and I'm too tired right now to think about if it makes any sense) he could also be in a way a sort of equivalent to Prometheus, bringing Etheric energy instead of fire. Or something like that. |
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