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Post by silicondream on Jan 26, 2024 8:04:51 GMT
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 26, 2024 8:16:52 GMT
But is ether emergent or fundamental?
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Post by crater on Jan 26, 2024 8:17:17 GMT
Yeah I took animus from the screaming void and turned it into life or whatever LAUGHING ON LINE whana go get tacos
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Post by Corvo on Jan 26, 2024 8:47:39 GMT
Retroactive ether-fuelled robots coming in 3... 2...
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Post by merry76 on Jan 26, 2024 10:09:19 GMT
That is a VERY strange way to carry someone who is dead. This is what you do to support someone who can still kind of move because he is drunk, beat up or otherwise weak. Once a person is dead, its very uncomfortable to try and grab-support him under the arms (because his legs just drag, and do nothing but add weight).
Ok, maybe the robots are too new at this whole living thing, and now they struggle even more with something that was living and is now freshly dead.
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Post by Tenjen on Jan 26, 2024 10:56:01 GMT
But is ether emergent or fundamental? Its an emergent element that made itself retroactively fundamental, even for eras long before said emergence. |
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Post by blahzor on Jan 26, 2024 10:56:54 GMT
Kat, the make up artist
she made them seem more alive Hollywood style
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 26, 2024 11:33:59 GMT
That is a VERY strange way to carry someone who is dead. This is what you do to support someone who can still kind of move because he is drunk, beat up or otherwise weak. Once a person is dead, its very uncomfortable to try and grab-support him under the arms (because his legs just drag, and do nothing but add weight). Ok, maybe the robots are too new at this whole living thing, and now they struggle even more with something that was living and is now freshly dead. I thought the same thing, but the NP are probably simply not used to carry dead people around. |
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Post by blahzor on Jan 26, 2024 12:19:33 GMT
But is ether emergent or fundamental? the ether is the tires, bismuth is the steel, the earth is the steering wheel, and Kat's computer is retroactively is the frame |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 26, 2024 13:51:33 GMT
It sort of looks like the Noobs are carrying Sam like they're trying to help him to his feet... but it just may be the case that too many Noobs are awkwardly helping so I'm not going to read too much into it yet. But is ether emergent or fundamental? Its an emergent element that made itself retroactively fundamental, even for eras long before said emergence. Very possible. For that to be the case I think there would have to be something about the other fundamental forces that abetted ether coming to be and then coming into being retroactively. It could be something like an absence (a vulnerability, making the ether an exploit?) and I'm not sure if that's a problem or not. It could also be that ether was fundamental but lacking a perceivable manifestation before a certain point... if retroactive causality, time travel and alternate timelines and dimensions are illusory and I can't rule that out. In the latter case we can preserve linear causality, in the former we don't need matter as anything other than another state of ether. My gut says that there these two possibilities could actually be the same thing stated different ways but I haven't figured out how to bridge them yet. |
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morrahadesigns
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Skinamarinky dinky-dink. Skinamarinky doo.
Posts: 222
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Post by morrahadesigns on Jan 26, 2024 14:44:56 GMT
That is a VERY strange way to carry someone who is dead. This is what you do to support someone who can still kind of move because he is drunk, beat up or otherwise weak. Once a person is dead, its very uncomfortable to try and grab-support him under the arms (because his legs just drag, and do nothing but add weight). Ok, maybe the robots are too new at this whole living thing, and now they struggle even more with something that was living and is now freshly dead. I'm guessing that since these are artificial bodies they are heavier than regular human bodies, but since Kat gave them human musculature we have strength variances just like humans do. So maybe they weren't strong enough for just one of them to carry the body, and it felt wrong to just carry him by the hands and feet? It could be an attempt to show respect for their friend that just passed by trying to carry him in a way that isn't the same as they'd treat an animal carcass? It could also have just been a stylistic choice and I am reading way too much into it. |
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morrahadesigns
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Skinamarinky dinky-dink. Skinamarinky doo.
Posts: 222
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Post by morrahadesigns on Jan 26, 2024 14:50:41 GMT
Hey, quick off topic questions. Where is everyone getting their Gunnerkrigg profile pics? I'm using the site on an android phone and I can't get a profile photo to upload or link. Don't know if it's because I'm on a phone or what. Can anyone help me out?
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Post by Gemminie on Jan 26, 2024 16:22:44 GMT
Kat just got done saying that she thinks they should do something to honor and remember Sam, so on this page we see a number of New People gathering around Sam's body and lifting him up. Meanwhile, Kat tells Annie that she doesn't think that The World Is a Dead Thing. She has a point, because the Arbiter's view seems to be that The Part of the World That Is Dead, Is a Dead Thing – whereas in Kat's opinion, the Ether is also a part of the world. From that she segues to her opinion that the robots were already alive before she made them new bodies – but beings like the Arbiter wouldn't have agreed, so all she's really done is change the form of the New People into something the Arbiter, the guides, etc. accept as being alive. And she adds that she's happy with that. Good on you, Kat – take your happiness where you can find it.
It doesn't look as if Annie and Renard are in a hurry to get on their way. Will they leave Kat there, or will Kat go with them? Or will the plan to head for the shore fall by the wayside when something unexpected happens? The plot thread of the mystery dark-haired NP has seemingly been dropped, and in this story, when a thread's been gratuitously brought up and then dropped, that usually means that it'll pop back up as a surprise. Will that happen now, or later? My thought is that it must happen before the action leaves Kat's workshop, because then we'll be leaving all the NP behind.
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Post by ctso74 on Jan 26, 2024 16:57:27 GMT
I wonder if the the neck patch's visibility is for consistency, or if it's hinting at something Etheric? Both?
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Post by wynne on Jan 26, 2024 17:51:41 GMT
Back from the dead to say that I appreciate that Kat is taking her responsibilities as creator of the new people more seriously than, say, Diego. The robots were his "children," but he never really gave them the sort of autonomy and self-determination Kat did. Even when she was younger and thoughtless (by her own admission), she respected Robot as an individual.
You can really tell she's growing up from the way she's taking it seriously, and unlike Diego she doesn't need a senseless tragedy + 30 years of hindsight to admit that she (who is still just a teen!) may have made a mistake.
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Post by AluK on Jan 26, 2024 23:21:17 GMT
Hey, quick off topic questions. Where is everyone getting their Gunnerkrigg profile pics? I'm using the site on an android phone and I can't get a profile photo to upload or link. Don't know if it's because I'm on a phone or what. Can anyone help me out? Some users used to make and post avatars with crops and edits for the most current comics in older threads, but I haven't seen those in a while. Most people likely make theirs, I made mine. If you have anything in mind, just link me the page and I can crop and link it for you. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 27, 2024 0:27:00 GMT
Honestly, I just wish it hadn't taken this many years for someone in the comic to finally cut through all that "Robots aren't technically alive" BS and acknowledge that they just had a different type of life, which happens to not be respected by an arbitrary set of magical rules. That's kinda been bugging me for ages, but I didn't really have any hope of it being resolved in the comic. Also, I think I'll take some cookies now for the Arbiter being biased about the ether, in a way that Kat disagrees with. That's another thing I didn't think would get brought up again, because I assumed that Kat would bring it up directly in conversation with the Arbiter! But hey, now I get surprise cookies. The best kind, even if my prediction was kind of vague. Om nom nom. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 27, 2024 0:39:25 GMT
Hey, quick off topic questions. Where is everyone getting their Gunnerkrigg profile pics? I'm using the site on an android phone and I can't get a profile photo to upload or link. Don't know if it's because I'm on a phone or what. Can anyone help me out? Oh dang, it HAS been a while since the Gunnerkrigg Avatar Thread had any new posts, huh. It used to one of the perennial threads, that was always at or near the top of Discussion! I never really followed it too closely, though (I'm quite happy with this one avatar I made in 2018), so I didn't even notice when it dropped off. Oops.
Don't suppose any more talented Photoshop users want to make a few more avatars out of recent pages, and bump the thread?
EDIT: Hilariously enough, it seems somebody went ahead and did that literally as I was typing this post. Thanks, imaginaryfriend! |
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Post by blahzor on Jan 27, 2024 2:11:23 GMT
I wonder if the the neck patch's visibility is for consistency, or if it's hinting at something Etheric? Both? Zimmy probably doesn't know what it's there subconsciously so the distortion isn't removing it for better believability |
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Post by Angry Individual on Jan 27, 2024 18:55:26 GMT
As sappy as is it, I really resonated with Kat's vibes on this one. Just because someone might consider one thing 'a dead world' might be viewed by another as a world filled with life. Subjective views and all that.
Forces the Arbiter to play the game Everything.
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Post by drmemory on Jan 27, 2024 23:35:45 GMT
That is a VERY strange way to carry someone who is dead. This is what you do to support someone who can still kind of move because he is drunk, beat up or otherwise weak. Once a person is dead, its very uncomfortable to try and grab-support him under the arms (because his legs just drag, and do nothing but add weight). Ok, maybe the robots are too new at this whole living thing, and now they struggle even more with something that was living and is now freshly dead. I thought the same thing, but the NP are probably simply not used to carry dead people around. Maybe they think Kat will put another mind in him? Or maybe they just don't quite get what "death" is for NP. They weren't there for the Arbiter's exposition, after all. Normal robots were dead when powered down, according to that one golem robot - so maybe they are expecting the same here.
Power up Sam, get Sam back.
We know that isn't the case but perhaps they do not.
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Post by drmemory on Jan 27, 2024 23:38:25 GMT
I'm not sure that Kat's opinion is likely to be more correct than that of the Arbiter. It didn't really sound like the Interpreter was describing a creation myth there, more like "this is how it works".
Kat is cool and wicked smart but she does not appear to be a primordial entity, who was there for Creation. Or at least the creation of the Ether.
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morrahadesigns
Full Member
Skinamarinky dinky-dink. Skinamarinky doo.
Posts: 222
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Post by morrahadesigns on Jan 28, 2024 3:26:06 GMT
Hey, quick off topic questions. Where is everyone getting their Gunnerkrigg profile pics? I'm using the site on an android phone and I can't get a profile photo to upload or link. Don't know if it's because I'm on a phone or what. Can anyone help me out? Some users used to make and post avatars with crops and edits for the most current comics in older threads, but I haven't seen those in a while. Most people likely make theirs, I made mine. If you have anything in mind, just link me the page and I can crop and link it for you. Thank you so much, I appreciate that. Here's the page, I'd like the first panel with Antimony reading and Shadow playing paddle ball. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=7 |
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Post by silicondream on Jan 28, 2024 12:47:03 GMT
Cookie to Gemminie for predicting that this was the real Kat, which I certainly wasn't expecting. But does that mean that Kat's still stuck in the distortion? Or does it mean that Annie's hit upon a method for escaping the distortion without waking Zimmy up first? Because that would be…big. But is ether emergent or fundamental? Same as mind ( *EDIT* in the real world), I would hazard. Objectively, it's emergent, because (so far as we know) you've got to smush particles into atoms and atoms into molecules and molecules into cells and cells into tissues in just the right way to get mind. Smash it with a brick, the matter's still there but the mind goes poof. Subjectively, it's fundamental, because you can't ask questions about "emergent or fundamental" without having a mind in the first place. Atoms and molecules and cells and tissues and bricks are just stories we make up to explain what our minds experience. I might lean a little more toward "emergent" in the case of the Ether, because human minds don't seem to require it in ether-depleted areas and robot minds don't seem to interact with it at all. But it takes an exceptional etheric being to recognize that. You can really tell she's growing up from the way she's taking it seriously, and unlike Diego she doesn't need a senseless tragedy + 30 years of hindsight to admit that she (who is still just a teen!) may have made a mistake. Diego was still saying it wasn't his fault on his deathbed, so I'm not sure he ever actually graduated to the "admitting a mistake" part. As sappy as is it, I really resonated with Kat's vibes on this one. Just because someone might consider one thing 'a dead world' might be viewed by another as a world filled with life. Subjective views and all that. Yes, it's a nice illustration of various philosophies of mind. The Arbiter and Interpreter are vitalists, or substance dualists. True mind/life is made of ether, and matter is important only to the degree that it makes the ether possible. Robots don't count because they're not connected to the ether; baseline humans only count because they eventually die and influence it. The rulers of the Court are physicalists and (exceptionally hardline) humanists, I think. All truly living, conscious minds are embodied in biologically human bodies. Nonhuman animals, robots and etheric beings don't qualify. Diego's constant lament is "She died and I did nothing;" he says nothing about her still being there, trapped and suffering. As far as the Founders are concerned, Jeanne was gone the moment her vital functions ceased, and her "ghost" is just an AI made of something particularly exotic. A machine, with no moral weight. Kat's a functionalist, like most AI researchers in the real world. Something's alive if it acts alive, with sufficiently high fidelity; something's sentient if it acts sentient. A lot of individuals within the Court seem to share her attitude to some degree—after all, humans have empathy and tend to apply it to any beings they're personally acquainted with—but social factors keep them from developing that attitude far enough to interfere with Court operations. They compartmentalize, as Paz does when she has no more sympathy for her lab mice than a typical real-world researcher, despite the fact that she has actual conversations with them. I thought the same thing, but the NP are probably simply not used to carry dead people around. Maybe they think Kat will put another mind in him? Or maybe they just don't quite get what "death" is for NP. They weren't there for the Arbiter's exposition, after all. Normal robots were dead when powered down, according to that one golem robot - so maybe they are expecting the same here. Power up Sam, get Sam back. We know that isn't the case but perhaps they do not. I think they know the difference between "dead because powered down" and "dead because the CPU's trashed." There's always been some bit of a robot or a golem that meant irreversible deactivation when it was wrecked; given the significance they place on "proper death," they probably expect that for bio-bodies too. I'm not sure that Kat's opinion is likely to be more correct than that of the Arbiter. It didn't really sound like the Interpreter was describing a creation myth there, more like "this is how it works". The Arbiter is myth, like the other etheric beings, so I doubt whether his "this is how it works" is any more objectively true than the rest of them. He may act more certain about it than Jones or Coyote, but that doesn't make him right. In any case, it doesn't seem like Kat's disagreeing with Saslamel that the Ether had a beginning. She just doesn't think that makes it separate from the material world. "Rocks and stones" had a beginning too. Well, the Interpreter wasn't there for that either. He may be a few thousand years old, but his imagery is definitely taken from relatively modern human cultures.. Even the etherics with their own creation myths, like Coyote, have only extended themselves into the past locally and retroactively. I don't think any of them were around to see the Ether's "real" beginning; they couldn't see it, because they're part of the Ether itself. Jones might be the exception, because she shows up in the fossil record (although that might just be her retroactively-written past), and because even the psychopomps acknowledge her as exceptionally ancient. But Jones is not particularly etherically sensitive, so even if she did live through the creation of the Ether I doubt she was actually able to observe it. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 28, 2024 14:33:56 GMT
I agree with how you describe Kat's approach, btw. I'm a bit more forgiving towards the Court because inorganic minds seemingly just became a thing. TL;DR: Maybe some stuff in the comic isn't what it seems. But is ether emergent or fundamental? Same as mind, I would hazard. Objectively, it's emergent, because (so far as we know) you've got to smush particles into atoms and atoms into molecules and molecules into cells and cells into tissues in just the right way to get mind. Smash it with a brick, the matter's still there but the mind goes poof. Does it? There does appear to be an afterlife in the Gunnerverse, maybe even for tiny insects. Dead people do seem to be able to think and feel in the comic. We can say that's a residue of the mind, which was the plaything of the body which is now dead... but with the ether making things real some dead people seem to enjoy (so to speak) indefinite existence after death. Subjectively, it's fundamental, because you can't ask questions about "emergent or fundamental" without having a mind in the first place. Atoms and molecules and cells and tissues and bricks are just stories we make up to explain what our minds experience. I don't disagree with that but I can also generate a story (I'll call it a hypothesis) that can explain sense experience (stuff in the comic) and it involves an ether that preexisted not only minds but life and maybe even matter. It didn't always look like the ether as it is now, but from the beginning it interacted with everything else that was and it's distinct from a mere medium for "spooky" interactions. Sure, when life happened subjectivity became a fuel; when minds happened that fuel caught fire and spread, generating more stories so that it remains self-sustaining... but we do have examples of entities who do not need sense organs or minds made of matter and that leaves the door wide open for speculation. As I started charting out fundamental interactions and perception in the Gunenrverse it occurred to me that the array of creatures and individuals with etheric abilities in the comic may not be a whim... The Hollow Fairies showed that mind doesn't have to be local with body and suggested some sort of predetermination is at work with them. Parley demonstrates that the ether can make nonsense out of distance. The Norns do the same with time. Coyote added his great secret but also a lot about subjectivity and knowledge problems. Smitty, though unconscious of it, demonstrates interconnectivity over space and time toward the end of order... so is it any stretch of the imagination to think that the ether also brings stories that it wants into being through similar means? That would explain why regular showers and baths don't help Zeta suppress her power, as the water that has been contained and piped would no longer be part of a larger ungoverned nudge, but weather (which was/is/will be part of countless other stories) does. Furthermore, if the ether acts to bring about stories that it wants, doesn't that mean that it creates foils? Some people exist to literally be the stage/backdrop/props in the more significant stories of others? True, they have stories of their own, but they are destined to be brief and often tragic (not everybody's as cool with it as Sam). If that's the case that would explain Aata's anger and why he deviated from the path he was on; it probably isn't just about life being unfair because some people are more powerful than others and some can do etheric stuff while most can't, it's that some people are set up to arguably be fodder so that more grand stories can be told. irl there's a historical bias towards people at the top of hierarchies (royals, generals, other potentates) but in the GCU plot-armor may be a literal thing. ...and if that's the case, and retroactive causality's a thing, just when did this nudging start? Do atoms and molecules behave and form substances they do because of the stories that ether wanted, perhaps? And what if matter is just another state of ether? I might lean a little more toward "emergent" in the case of the Ether, because human minds don't seem to require it in ether-depleted areas and robot minds don't seem to interact with it at all. But it takes an exceptional etheric being to recognize that. I do think emergence is the default position that the reader of the comic is supposed to have and as such I think there's reason to be concerned about humans attempting to found a colony in a completely ether-free environment. If that's even possible it sounds unsafe, though if it's actually an illusion (an etheric pocket-kingdom) maybe it'll be fine. There is room to be skeptical, though. What if the ether isn't as powerful as it seems? What if the alternate dimensions, time travel, and so on is mostly or entirely bunk? Take for example the time Coyote brought the moon down from the sky to impress Antimony. She poked it, and a fingerprint (presumably hers) appeared later on the moon. Solar wind was offered in-comic as an explanation. However, what if Antimony hadn't just poked the moon, but punted it like a Coyotedawg, or even shattered it? Could she actually have blown up the moon? Almost certainly not, because the ether wouldn't have allowed it because it would have crapped on way too many interesting stories, but maybe also because it just flat-out couldn't. We've seen examples (primarily the RotD) of experiences that are stage managed. From the skeptic's position, it's a lot easier for the ether to have the stories it wants if some of the fantastical things in them (maybe most) are actually frauds. Does it really matter to the ether? If you experienced it, it's real to you, right? Additionally the skeptic's position can preserve matter and linear causality so there's that. ...but this is just stuff I'm working through. If anyone can think of thought-experiments that could shed some light on any of these questions I'd be delighted to read them. |
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Post by blahzor on Jan 28, 2024 15:12:30 GMT
the mind is the true body b/c we have plenty of beings switch bodies repeatly and they are still themselves. it's like changing clothes
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Post by AluK on Jan 28, 2024 19:43:06 GMT
Thank you so much, I appreciate that. Here's the page, I'd like the first panel with Antimony reading and Shadow playing paddle ball. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=7There you go!  |
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morrahadesigns
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Posts: 222
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Post by morrahadesigns on Jan 29, 2024 0:25:39 GMT
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Post by guntherkrieg on Jan 29, 2024 8:22:19 GMT
But is ether emergent or fundamental? Yes |
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Post by guntherkrieg on Jan 29, 2024 8:24:16 GMT
I think we can all agree that Siddell has never tried to carry a dead body.
Unless he has and this is his way of throwing us off the sce-- I'M ON TO YOU SIDDELL.
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