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Post by Vuk(Wolf) on Jan 5, 2024 10:44:58 GMT
I don't want to downplay Kat, but she essentially made them organic bodies, but Diego made their brains.
They are capable of critical thinking because of him, they were able to learn and adapt over years. The man did more for their "humanity" than Kat.
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Post by AluK on Jan 5, 2024 11:29:35 GMT
Diego's work was foundational, but without Kat's they would only ever be appliances. Their minds barely buckets to hold their functions.
She actually made them living beings, capable of growth, change and, ultimately, death. She made them an ocean.
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Post by silicondream on Jan 5, 2024 13:22:26 GMT
I don't want to downplay Kat, but she essentially made them organic bodies, but Diego made their brains. They are capable of critical thinking because of him, they were able to learn and adapt over years. The man did more for their "humanity" than Kat. Well, there's certainly lots of people that deserve some credit. Diego made the golems, the golems made the robots, the robots made evolved versions of themselves, and Kat, Tony, Juliette and Robot made them into New People. The golems' collective creative powers are almost as impressive as Diego's, considering that they had to invent completely new and non-etheric propulsion and operating systems for their robot descendants. They were the first ones to create a sentient robot instead of a sentient semimagical thingy. Also, the robots invented their own culture, social structure, etc. Diego didn't give them that stuff; the golems were just dysfunctional children who lived to glorify a narcissist father. But only Kat's standing here right now, so yay Kat! Note also that Juliette designed their current brains. Nothing in them is Diego-crafted at this point. If we're comparing Kat and her team to Diego, Kat's team accomplished more from an etheric POV because the New People can start adding to and shaping the ether when they die. (The etheric bureaucracy clearly gives no fucks about robots, no matter how well they think and how much they feel. This is because they're self-serving assclowns.) From a psychological and ethical POV, Diego created a race of very smart and diligent slaves. Kat gave them freedom, physically and mentally, as well as a much vaster range of emotions and perceptions. If Lana is any indication, they're capable of far more intentional change and growth than they were as robots. Even Robot, I think, doesn't have much free will yet. He's still basically a Seraph, and follows a Seraph's behavioral code; he's simply better at it because he's more imaginative and emotionally perceptive. Lana, on the other hand, is capable of abandoning both her old librarian job and her New Person duties and eloping with Jerrek because fuck it, she loves him and that's suddenly more important than anything else. I would say that Kat is a greater scientist/engineer than Diego, both because she's accomplished all this stuff before she's old enough to drink, and because her work is fuelled by a far more complete understanding of personhood than Diego ever had. |
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Post by blahzor on Jan 5, 2024 17:40:37 GMT
I don't want to downplay Kat, but she essentially made them organic bodies, but Diego made their brains. They are capable of critical thinking because of him, they were able to learn and adapt over years. The man did more for their "humanity" than Kat. she read their unreadable code, she creaetd the process to transfer them into the bio brains she got help with. she created their bodies. and she did it within 2 years |
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jan 5, 2024 18:38:17 GMT
well, no less than Isaac Newton famously said that he saw far by "standing on the shoulders of giants." And Stephen Hawking also borrowed the phrase.
Even Shakespeare borrowed ideas from older writers.
So Kat would certainly be in good company, if she wants to humblebrag. And there's nothing wrong with that.
But as long as I'm throwing out old saws, it's also true that "the student has surpassed the master."
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Post by drmemory on Jan 5, 2024 20:16:04 GMT
Kat designed their bodies. She figured out the whole "muscle" thing. She also was able to read their code (to an extent) and she was the one that figured out how Diego's technology/magic worked, to power them. Last but not least, she reverse engineered the arrow, and made her own, and used it to enable the mind transfers. So she certainly deserves most of the credit! Oh, she also is the one who the powers-that-be hold responsible! She is the one that got a new contract out of the Arbiter, and she is the one who they say is responsible for their souls. So even without all of her discoveries and tech work, they are certainly hers now, in a very real and contractually binding sense. Juliette did some stuff too, and Robot and other robots and golems helped a lot with parts of the work. But ultimately, that was all engineering and/or manufacturing. Kat did the NRE - the novel work of creation. That being said, Kat isn't the one that claims credit for all of this - Robot S13 is the one who started the whole "She is the Angel" thing. She was actually pretty shy and embarrassed by this, especially at first. I'm curious about how recent events will affect her view of this. She now knows for sure that they are alive and that she is responsible for their souls. That has to affect a person. I'd imagine her armor or whatever it is will also be a topic of conversation soon... In any case, I've always said she owned them, and now the Arbiter backs that up. Officially. Hard to say what the rest of the fine print says, but it seems clear that she is in a very real sense their god and/or owner. I wouldn't begrudge her getting credit here, especially now that it's becoming clear that it came with responsibilities.
Kat worked really hard at this. Without Kat, there would be no NP. She didn't plan it all out in advance though. That was Robot.
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Post by lurkerbot on Jan 6, 2024 23:31:00 GMT
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Post by silicondream on Jan 7, 2024 5:01:51 GMT
She was the first to give Robot a choice--and a major one, since robots are never allowed to leave the Court.* But I would imagine that those (very few) robots who've managed to have a peer relationship with a human were offered choices before that. Which is exactly why the Court discourages such relationships. The Seraphs appear to operate somewhat independently of the Court, and can at least disobey orders from low- and mid-rank human officials. They also managed to avoid the installation of the shield protocol that stalled all the other robot CPUs. However, I doubt they experience this as freedom of choice; they're simply following higher directives set down by Diego, the golems, and/or the masters of the Court. *speaking of which...how was Robot allowed to leave the Court on Annie's say-so, when no other robot has ever managed to escape? Are the Seraphs just so good at avoiding Court surveillance that he could do it even while missing most of his memories? Or does the Court not care about robots escaping in the Forest direction because it assumes they'll be destroyed? |
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Hatredman
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Scarper, Montgomery!
Posts: 162
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Post by Hatredman on Jan 10, 2024 3:04:25 GMT
Well... She gave him a choice as an afterthought, or not even that. Antimony just wanted "a robotic walking device which will provide you [Shadow 2] with transit across the bridge". She didn't expect S13 to be its own person, have a personality, and be so chatty. |
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Post by blahzor on Jan 10, 2024 6:22:13 GMT
See kids when a mom and a mom meet up and develop a long lasting relationship. One will give choice the other will give super strong adaptive bodies, souls, and freedom and that's how you were born Kids: but that doesn't explain anything! |
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Post by silicondream on Jan 10, 2024 11:44:52 GMT
Well... She gave him a choice as an afterthought, or not even that. Antimony just wanted "a robotic walking device which will provide you [Shadow 2] with transit across the bridge". She didn't expect S13 to be its own person, have a personality, and be so chatty. "You can stay in the death forest filled with superpowered magical beings who hate technology if you want" Not that she knew any of that, of course.
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Post by lurkerbot on Jan 11, 2024 0:14:44 GMT
Well... She gave him a choice as an afterthought, or not even that. Oh, agreed! It was a minor thing to her, but S13 evidently gave this choice much more significance than she intended. I don't know that S13 would have started its progression otherwise, despite the claim that S13 had a longstanding history of atypical behavior for a robot. |
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Hatredman
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Posts: 162
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Post by Hatredman on Jan 11, 2024 1:14:41 GMT
He was always a difficult child, that one. And he ended befriending a misfit criminal, no good would result from that.
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Hatredman
Full Member
Scarper, Montgomery!
Posts: 162
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Post by Hatredman on Jan 11, 2024 1:14:58 GMT
QUOTING INSTEAD OF EDITING.
I feel stupid.
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