Kat the Kreator

[drmemory]

I'm honestly not sure why some people get so stirred up when I talk about Kat owning the NP.  I don't necessarily mean a master/slave situation!  There are other options!

There is a big difference between what Kat did and what the psychopomps do normally.  She is, in a very real sense, their creator.  She designed and created their new bodies.  With the help of Juliette, she designed and created their new minds.  With the help of Diego's arrow and her new contract, she moved their programs into these new bodies and minds, creating new, living beings.

The only other entity we've seen do something sort of comparable is Coyote.  Loup immediately made the association and saw this.  Nobody else has created life, that I've seen.

The contract is the other factor here.  It started as Annie's single-use contract of ownership between her and her toy wolf, which Renard was inhabiting, which in turn is how Annie ended up owning Renard.  Is that a master/slave relationship?  Well, maybe.  It COULD be, but Annie never treated it like that.

So when the Arbiter gave Kat a new contract and allowed the use of the arrow to create a new form of life... what did that contract do?  What changes were made?  Was it still a contract of ownership?  I suspect so, and that's why I keep saying that Kat owns them in a very real sense.  To my knowledge, she's never ordered one to do something against their will, so we don't know.  What if it instead became a Familiar contract, like Annie's?  We haven't seen any evidence either way, and I'm not sure what it would look like if we did.  Frankly, Annie doesn't know what her contract says either, because she never read her damned book!   Arrrgh!

Kat is the creator of each NP.  Kat is the creator of their bodies and gave them better (or at least bigger) minds, and life.  Each of them is bound to her by whatever that darned contract says.  Is it ownership?  Dunno, but it certainly seems possible.

What else could "Keeper of this soul" mean, anyway?  There honestly aren't all that many possible interpretations.  Ownership is one.  If not that, their souls are still bound to Kat.  Which is why I'm suspicious they may end returning to Kat when they die.  Also, we've always seen that she has all those wires and conduits going off into the distance whenever we've seen her mecha form.  Where could they be going but to the NP?

Anyway, I decided to post this just to make it clear why I think what I think.  I like Kat very much and do not think she is particularly evil.  I DO think she is unreasonably powerful, especially with her recent upgrade, but even before that, she already had that mecha form and she scared the hell out of Zimmy.  Which is another sorta bad sign...

If you must worry about something, I suggest worrying less about my theories and more about the arrow.  Has Kat been abusing it, based on the terms of her contract (that she never read)?  What happens to the NP if the arrow is stolen or destroyed?

And as usual, we have Coyote overshadowing everything.  The one true God in the comic.  Did he set all this up?  In how much detail?  Like, did he want Kat to create a new race and become a goddess, or is that all an unforeseen side effect of his plans?

We've also got two unresolved death predictions that I find worrisome:  Annie to kill Loup, and Kat to kill Zimmy.  Neither has been ruled out in any way, and we're about to see the Arbiter and Interpreter confront Kat with a big dose of the supernatural.  Kat still hasn't entirely accepted magic and the ether and the like, and we've seen her have issues with handling stress...

The one good thing is, we now know for sure Lana isn't dead...  Everything else is up in the air.

[jda]

Nov 28, 2023 3:18:51 GMT drmemory said:

I'm honestly not sure why some people get so stirred up when I talk about Kat owning the NP.  I don't necessarily mean a master/slave situation!  There are other options!

There is a big difference between what Kat did and what the psychopomps do normally.  She is, in a very real sense, their creator.  She designed and created their new bodies.  With the help of Juliette, she designed and created their new minds.  With the help of Diego's arrow and her new contract, she moved their programs into these new bodies and minds, creating new, living beings.

The only other entity we've seen do something sort of comparable is Coyote.  Loup immediately made the association and saw this.  Nobody else has created life, that I've seen.

The contract is the other factor here.  It started as Annie's single-use contract of ownership between her and her toy wolf, which Renard was inhabiting, which in turn is how Annie ended up owning Renard.  Is that a master/slave relationship?  Well, maybe.  It COULD be, but Annie never treated it like that.

So when the Arbiter gave Kat a new contract and allowed the use of the arrow to create a new form of life... what did that contract do?  What changes were made?  Was it still a contract of ownership?  I suspect so, and that's why I keep saying that Kat owns them in a very real sense.  To my knowledge, she's never ordered one to do something against their will, so we don't know.  What if it instead became a Familiar contract, like Annie's?  We haven't seen any evidence either way, and I'm not sure what it would look like if we did.  Frankly, Annie doesn't know what her contract says either, because she never read her damned book!   Arrrgh!

Kat is the creator of each NP.  Kat is the creator of their bodies and gave them better (or at least bigger) minds, and life.  Each of them is bound to her by whatever that darned contract says.  Is it ownership?  Dunno, but it certainly seems possible.

What else could "Keeper of this soul" mean, anyway?  There honestly aren't all that many possible interpretations.  Ownership is one.  If not that, their souls are still bound to Kat.  Which is why I'm suspicious they may end returning to Kat when they die.  Also, we've always seen that she has all those wires and conduits going off into the distance whenever we've seen her mecha form.  Where could they be going but to the NP?

Anyway, I decided to post this just to make it clear why I think what I think.  I like Kat very much and do not think she is particularly evil.  I DO think she is unreasonably powerful, especially with her recent upgrade, but even before that, she already had that mecha form and she scared the hell out of Zimmy.  Which is another sorta bad sign...

If you must worry about something, I suggest worrying less about my theories and more about the arrow.  Has Kat been abusing it, based on the terms of her contract (that she never read)?  What happens to the NP if the arrow is stolen or destroyed?

And as usual, we have Coyote overshadowing everything.  The one true God in the comic.  Did he set all this up?  In how much detail?  Like, did he want Kat to create a new race and become a goddess, or is that all an unforeseen side effect of his plans?

We've also got two unresolved death predictions that I find worrisome:  Annie to kill Loup, and Kat to kill Zimmy.  Neither has been ruled out in any way, and we're about to see the Arbiter and Interpreter confront Kat with a big dose of the supernatural.  Kat still hasn't entirely accepted magic and the ether and the like, and we've seen her have issues with handling stress...

The one good thing is, we now know for sure Lana isn't dead...  Everything else is up in the air.

I think Salsa de Miel will try to enforce the terms and conditions that do apply to the EULA Kat accepted, and punish her for attempting to break contract, since she is now the "keeper" of these (new?) souls.

However, given the circumstances (mainly the scariness of Kat's new form), SalusaSecundel would gladly offer her a "new" alternative to "owning", and being "keeper": 

Apotheosing her, changing the Contract to GODNESS.

[pyradonis]

I interpreted "Keeper" in the sense of "caretaker", or "the one responsible for", but it's certainly a choice of words open to...interpretations. I am confident though that the coming pages will explain this part.

BTW, I always saw Annie's and Renard's former relationship as a master/slave one, though I think I am in the minority with that. Annie probably didn't see it as that, but I'm fairly certain Renard initially did ("[N]ow you own me."), and Annie certainly made use of her ability of ordering Renard around in the beginning.

Kat might own the NP's bodies (not their souls, I think, since last time Clippy said a contract of ownership cannot be applied to a living mind) as a far as Etheric bureaucracy is concerned, since she created those... but this raises further questions. I can't imagine parents would own their offspring's bodies, for example, despite creating them, so there needs to be some explanation why it would be different in this case. And if Kat does own the NP's bodies... then the Court must own the bodies of all the former Forest denizens turned human. And if that isn't a bomb waiting to be set off...

[drmemory]

As always, my theories are just my theories. I think this set is based pretty solidly on what we've seen though.

It remains to be seen whether Kat has the same relationship with her NP. But I'm more worried about how she will react to all of this, regardless of the details. Zimmy told us to keep an eye on her, among other things.

[drmemory]

Nov 28, 2023 14:50:56 GMT pyradonis said:

I interpreted "Keeper" in the sense of "caretaker", or "the one responsible for", but it's certainly a choice of words open to...interpretations. I am confident though that the coming pages will explain this part.

BTW, I always saw Annie's and Renard's former relationship as a master/slave one, though I think I am in the minority with that. Annie probably didn't see it as that, but I'm fairly certain Renard initially did ("[N]ow you own me."), and Annie certainly made use of her ability of ordering Renard around in the beginning.

Kat might own the NP's bodies (not their souls, I think, since last time Clippy said a contract of ownership cannot be applied to a living mind) as a far as Etheric bureaucracy is concerned, since she created those... but this raises further questions. I can't imagine parents would own their offspring's bodies, for example, despite creating them, so there needs to be some explanation why it would be different in this case. And if Kat does own the NP's bodies... then the Court must own the bodies of all the former Forest denizens turned human. And if that isn't a bomb waiting to be set off...

I agree that Annie/Renard did indeed have a master/slave relationship before. Hettie even called Renard on this. I also suspect that this is why the Interpreter was sort of tentative about suggesting the new contract - that's a lot of power to give up! But Annie never thought of it that way, so it wasn't an issue for her.

However, I interpreted what Clippy said as an explanation of the problems, not a statement describing something impossible.  They did end up giving her a new contract, after all - it seems possible they may have worried about letting her create her own slave race!  But right now, we don't know whether that's what she did or not.

If I were in this world, I'd be reading everything I got my hands on.  Also exploring the computers, like Jack.  Hopefully with fewer brain spiders, of course.

But if some supernatural being wanted me to sign a contract, or handed me a book about what they just did to my slave/familiar/whatever, you can be sure I'd be studying those documents before doing anything else.  Annie's history of being not-so-good at academics is really biting her in the butt here, but I'm surprised at Kat taking things at face value!  Like, ya ya all this impossible stuff just happened, just show me where to sign, I'm sure it's fine... from a detail-oriented engineer?  She didn't even ask for a copy of the contract!

[drmemory]

Nov 28, 2023 7:24:11 GMT jda said:

I think Salsa de Miel will try to enforce the terms and conditions that do apply to the EULA Kat accepted, and punish her for attempting to break contract, since she is now the "keeper" of these (new?) souls.

However, given the circumstances (mainly the scariness of Kat's new form), SalusaSecundel would gladly offer her a "new" alternative to "owning", and being "keeper": 

Apotheosing her, changing the Contract to GODNESS.

Hmmm.  Maybe.

Based on their prior interaction, I have a hunch that the Interpreter will try to convince her not to do bad things, but ultimately back down.  If he actually has any power to punish, it would be because of the contract, and we don't know what the thing says, so maybe he has more real power in this situation than is obvious?

The thing is, the Arbiter and Interpreter are pretty impatient and unwilling to deal with things that aren't part of their jobs.  I read it as the Arbiter's job being "contract enforcement" and the Interpreter's job as being "talking to lesser beings, and translating (accurately if he feels like it)".  But maybe we'll see a different side of them, and maybe some of the Arbiter's power, if Kat actually violated her contract.

Another possibility is that her contract contains something like "They are your puppies, so you have to take care of them".  That would fit with my belief that Kat actually created new living beings.  She may well have signed up to be their God, if not their Afterlife, and those are responsibilities not easily evaded.  They are HERS in a very real sense (or so I believe).

Where I'm heading with this is that it's possible that Kat's contractual violation may not have happened yet.  Perhaps she will rebel at what the Interpreter has to say (demands that she do), and that is what will cause the violation of Checkov's Contract.

[pyradonis]

Nov 28, 2023 16:17:20 GMT drmemory said:

But if some supernatural being wanted me to sign a contract, or handed me a book about what they just did to my slave/familiar/whatever, you can be sure I'd be studying those documents before doing anything else.  Annie's history of being not-so-good at academics is really biting her in the butt here, but I'm surprised at Kat taking things at face value!  Like, ya ya all this impossible stuff just happened, just show me where to sign, I'm sure it's fine... from a detail-oriented engineer?  She didn't even ask for a copy of the contract!

Yeah, I just thought the same thing. Annie not reading/researching the stuff, sure. But Kat?

[gpvos]

Nov 28, 2023 16:31:15 GMT drmemory said:

The thing is, the Arbiter and Interpreter are pretty impatient and unwilling to deal with things that aren't part of their jobs.  I read it as the Arbiter's job being "contract enforcement" and the Interpreter's job as being "talking to lesser beings, and translating (accurately if he feels like it)".  But maybe we'll see a different side of them, and maybe some of the Arbiter's power, if Kat actually violated her contract.

We might see Saslamel trying to put Kat in jail and failing because of Kat's power, or maybe just because of the distortion.

[drmemory]

Nov 29, 2023 13:24:24 GMT pyradonis said:

Nov 28, 2023 16:17:20 GMT drmemory said:

But if some supernatural being wanted me to sign a contract, or handed me a book about what they just did to my slave/familiar/whatever, you can be sure I'd be studying those documents before doing anything else.  Annie's history of being not-so-good at academics is really biting her in the butt here, but I'm surprised at Kat taking things at face value!  Like, ya ya all this impossible stuff just happened, just show me where to sign, I'm sure it's fine... from a detail-oriented engineer?  She didn't even ask for a copy of the contract!

Yeah, I just thought the same thing. Annie not reading/researching the stuff, sure. But Kat?

Little Miss "One does not get bored in double physics!"?  Ya, neglecting learning things, especially things that could affect her or Annie or her NP, seems out of character.

[silicondream]

Nov 28, 2023 16:17:20 GMT drmemory said:

Nov 28, 2023 14:50:56 GMT pyradonis said:

I interpreted "Keeper" in the sense of "caretaker", or "the one responsible for", but it's certainly a choice of words open to...interpretations. I am confident though that the coming pages will explain this part.

BTW, I always saw Annie's and Renard's former relationship as a master/slave one, though I think I am in the minority with that. Annie probably didn't see it as that, but I'm fairly certain Renard initially did ("[N]ow you own me."), and Annie certainly made use of her ability of ordering Renard around in the beginning.

Kat might own the NP's bodies (not their souls, I think, since last time Clippy said a contract of ownership cannot be applied to a living mind) as a far as Etheric bureaucracy is concerned, since she created those... but this raises further questions. I can't imagine parents would own their offspring's bodies, for example, despite creating them, so there needs to be some explanation why it would be different in this case. And if Kat does own the NP's bodies... then the Court must own the bodies of all the former Forest denizens turned human. And if that isn't a bomb waiting to be set off...

I agree that Annie/Renard did indeed have a master/slave relationship before. Hettie even called Renard on this. I also suspect that this is why the Interpreter was sort of tentative about suggesting the new contract - that's a lot of power to give up! But Annie never thought of it that way, so it wasn't an issue for her.

I don't think Annie actually gave up any power over Renard. According to Clippy, he's still under her control as a familiar. In fact, her power over him is even greater now because it's not dependent on him possessing the wolf doll; he would still belong to her even if he went back to his original fox body.

Clippy does also say that the familiar status "can be relinquished at any time," but since changes to ownership require the consent of the original owner, Renard's still basically Annie's slave until/unless she chooses to free him. As a deeply wounded and guilt-ridden person, he seems to be ok with this, but it'll be interesting to see whether she ever pushes him to try out freedom for a while.

But if some supernatural being wanted me to sign a contract, or handed me a book about what they just did to my slave/familiar/whatever, you can be sure I'd be studying those documents before doing anything else.  Annie's history of being not-so-good at academics is really biting her in the butt here, but I'm surprised at Kat taking things at face value!  Like, ya ya all this impossible stuff just happened, just show me where to sign, I'm sure it's fine... from a detail-oriented engineer?  She didn't even ask for a copy of the contract!

Well, you can be a great engineer and a crappy lawyer at the same time...I assume.

I suspect that Kat simply thought working around Clippy & Saslamel was more efficient than complying with every detail of the contract. Whatever organization they represent doesn't seem very ethical--the fact that there even is a policy for how to properly own another sentient being is pretty darn sketchy--and it's probably not very powerful either, given its failure to retrieve the arrow, rescue Jeanne or punish Diego. So she may as well just use the arrow as she and the NPs see fit, and persuade and/or fight the bureaucrats if they show up again to complain. Worst comes to worst, they throw her in jail, but that's only a risk to her, and Kat's never valued her own safety very much.

Her behavior here is kind of a mirror to Annie's. Annie slacked off academically because she had no respect for the Court's culture and government; she was raised by her mom to be a citizen of the Ether, and as far as she was concerned the Court's just a bunch of meddling jerks who think they own the world. Kat was raised Court, and as far as she was concerned the Etheric bureaucracy's just a bunch of meddling jerks who think they own the world. Each girl became careless and "unruly" when she entered the opposite domain, and each girl needed a parent to step in and guide her toward a more productive and respectful style of behavior in that domain. (You'll notice that Kat didn't start being polite to Etheric officials until Anja was chaperoning her.)

[mturtle7]

Nov 30, 2023 23:57:35 GMT silicondream said:

But if some supernatural being wanted me to sign a contract, or handed me a book about what they just did to my slave/familiar/whatever, you can be sure I'd be studying those documents before doing anything else.  Annie's history of being not-so-good at academics is really biting her in the butt here, but I'm surprised at Kat taking things at face value!  Like, ya ya all this impossible stuff just happened, just show me where to sign, I'm sure it's fine... from a detail-oriented engineer?  She didn't even ask for a copy of the contract!

Well, you can be a great engineer and a crappy lawyer at the same time...I assume.

I suspect that Kat simply thought working around Clippy & Saslamel was more efficient than complying with every detail of the contract. Whatever organization they represent doesn't seem very ethical--the fact that there even is a policy for how to properly own another sentient being is pretty darn sketchy--and it's probably not very powerful either, given its failure to retrieve the arrow, rescue Jeanne or punish Diego. So she may as well just use the arrow as she and the NPs see fit, and persuade and/or fight the bureaucrats if they show up again to complain. Worst comes to worst, they throw her in jail, but that's only a risk to her, and Kat's never valued her own safety very much.

Her behavior here is kind of a mirror to Annie's. Annie slacked off academically because she had no respect for the Court's culture and government; she was raised by her mom to be a citizen of the Ether, and as far as she was concerned the Court's just a bunch of meddling jerks who think they own the world. Kat was raised Court, and as far as she was concerned the Etheric bureaucracy's just a bunch of meddling jerks who think they own the world. Each girl became careless and "unruly" when she entered the opposite domain, and each girl needed a parent to step in and guide her toward a more productive and respectful style of behavior in that domain. (You'll notice that Kat didn't start being polite to Etheric officials until Anja was chaperoning her.)

As an engineer who has worked with other engineers, I can confirm that being "detail-oriented" when it comes to programming & engineering does not necessarily translate to being "detail-oriented" when reading legal contracts. If anything, it actually makes us WORSE at reading legal stuff thoroughly, because we're so good at abstracting away information we're told not to worry about. Like, when an engineer is handed a project with 20000 lines of existing code, they're never going to bother trying to understand or even skim the whole thing, they're just going to read the parts they're told are relevant, and then they'll just mess around with that until they get the results they want. So if a skilled engineer is handed a contract, and told that all the details are taken care of, they just need to sign this thing before they can get back to work...well, Kat's response is actually fairly typical.

[drmemory]

Remember that time when Kat had her friends implant a chip in her neck and it booted her from her body entirely? I wonder if that counted as "death" by the standards of those in the Gunnerverse who care about such things?

It probably wouldn't relieve her of any contractual obligations anyway. Just curious. It would be one more thing she has in common with Coyote.

[blahzor]

Dec 12, 2023 17:08:26 GMT drmemory said:

Remember that time when Kat had her friends implant a chip in her neck and it booted her from her body entirely? I wonder if that counted as "death" by the standards of those in the Gunnerverse who care about such things?

It probably wouldn't relieve her of any contractual obligations anyway. Just curious. It would be one more thing she has in common with Coyote.

Probably treated like Rey. Transferring out of body but your body is still there to go back to one day until Lupe destroyed it

[Storel]

Dec 5, 2023 3:26:45 GMT mturtle7 said:

As an engineer who has worked with other engineers, I can confirm that being "detail-oriented" when it comes to programming & engineering does not necessarily translate to being "detail-oriented" when reading legal contracts. If anything, it actually makes us WORSE at reading legal stuff thoroughly, because we're so good at abstracting away information we're told not to worry about. Like, when an engineer is handed a project with 20000 lines of existing code, they're never going to bother trying to understand or even skim the whole thing, they're just going to read the parts they're told are relevant, and then they'll just mess around with that until they get the results they want. So if a skilled engineer is handed a contract, and told that all the details are taken care of, they just need to sign this thing before they can get back to work...well, Kat's response is actually fairly typical.

Also, we know Kat likes playing video games and computer games, so she's gotten used to software installations popping up an EULA (End User License Agreement) for you to read and accept. Even if you try to read one of those the first time you encounter one, you discover that it's so long, convoluted, and boooooring that you just scroll quickly to the bottom and click "Accept" -- and you do that every time after without even trying to read it first. The contract they gave Kat even had an "Accept" button at the bottom... almost as if they were hoping expecting she'd follow ingrained habits and just click it without reading. Sneaky!