[2848] CRUNCH

[madjack]

This guy doesn't look friendly.



But where have we seen one of them before?

[blahzor]

NP Elf blushing

[Igniz]

a) It's a fake, just a memory or an illusion.
b) He comes in peace, possibly even looking for help.

[arf]

A hint to move on?

[arf]

The trees are bendy... *and* crunchy!

[blahzor]

how long has Tom had the twitter avatar Mort?

[lonestarf1]

Oct 11, 2023 13:27:01 GMT blahzor said:

how long has Tom had the twitter avatar Mort?

If I had to guess, since October 1st, 2023. The Gunnerkrigg twitter is run by "Mort" every October.

[gpvos]

It is just looking for Annie. After all, she speaks its language.

[yogaflame]

I initially read the last panel as the ogre shouting his name like a Pokemon, and I think I'm going to stick with that interpretation.

[rabbit]

The Forest can be a dangerous place: Know before you go!

Common Ogre Types

Mass Ogre - Talks in Church. How rude.

Miss Ogre - Nearsighted. If encountered, keep your distance.

Muss Ogre - Not really dangerous, just tousles your hair like your great aunt does. Even though you are now TWENTY-SEVEN. YEARS. OLD.

Morse Ogre - Tappita tap tap tappy tap.

Møøse Ogre - Only found in Canada. Mind you, møøse bites Kan be pretty nasti...

Moss Ogre - Dangerous. Can only be defeated by fire elementals and the Rolling Stones.

[ctso74]

Oct 11, 2023 16:26:35 GMT rabbit said:

Møøse Ogre - Only found in Canada. Mind you, møøse bites Kan be pretty nasti...

Nice Dwarf Fortress reference, but a Moose Ogre sounds terrifying. It would be terrifyingly large and even more aggressive in the fall. Shudder.

[Gemminie]

Renard was just telling Annie about how much the Tree Elves feel at home here. But in this page's first frame, the speaker is unclear. It's probably one of the Tree Elves, though, because they're remarking about how easy it is for those of their people who have learned the wood-shaping talent to use it on the trees around here. We see two such Tree Elves using this ability on trees. We then see one of the Tree Elves saying to another that it wouldn't take long to put up a house in this way, while in the background one of the New People is having a conversation with another of the Tree People, and another New Person is standing around.

But then there's a THUD. And with a CRUNCH, a quite large humanoid creature comes this way, breaking through some trees to get here. One of the Tree Elves identifies it as a Moss Ogre. It's very tall, muscular, and seemingly gray-skinned. Has quite an underbite.

Back in "Crash Course" Annie confronts a creature that Ysengrin (in "Meetings and Re-Meetings") identifies as a Moss Ogre. And here's one again, just after Annie arrives. How likely is it for a Moss Ogre to come wandering by just as Annie gets here? She remarked that this place feels familiar to her, and we've already met some sort of Ysengrin avatar. Is this all just constructed out of Annie's memories? And if so, who's doing the constructing, and for what purpose?

As for what happens immediately afterward, will Annie step forward and attack the Moss Ogre with fire? Will that work, or will this one have come prepared? Will Annie realize that this is basically like when the Enterprise-D's holodeck put a bunch of Sherlock Holmes stories in a blender for Data's benefit? Or is the Moss Ogre here for some other reason? Maybe he's here to talk. "Hey, Forest medium, yer s'posedta tell us when there's gonna be a new Forest and such. What gives?"

But I don't think so. I don't recall seeing any Moss Ogres among the Forest denizens Annie rescued. I suppose this one might have survived and dug its own way to the surface. Perhaps it's been hiding out in the ruins ever since, and nobody's seen it until now, and it hasn't attacked anyone in all that time. Doesn't that seem unlikely? Or is it an apparition or creation of the Ether, constructed from Annie's memory? So, as I'm sure many of us are wondering, has Annie actually traveled to this place, or has it just been created, and she's still standing in exactly the same spot as ever?

[bicarbonat]

[therapist voice] And is that moss ogre actually a moss ogre? Or does it represent something else? Let's dig deeper [flicks Bic lighter]

[jasmijn]

Oh hey, it's that guy! (A moss ogre)

[pyradonis]

Everyone's talking about the moss ogre, meanwhile I am just awake much too late in the night and asking myself if this is the first time we've seen a tree elf with a beard.

[Runningflame]

Oct 11, 2023 7:42:56 GMT Igniz said:

a) It's a fake, just a memory or an illusion.

"He's a fake, and he doesn't know the territory!"
- The Music Man

[drmemory]

Just as a reminder, we don't really know for sure whether anyone we're seeing is both real and really who they look like.

Is Annie there? Yes, but we've seen Zimmy get confused and think she's Annie before.

Is Renard there? Maybe. Annie was holding on to him when they entered, so if she is real and really Annie, he's probably real and really Renard also.

Are the NP real? Maybe, but I don't recognize any of them. Annie seemed to think they were real but looked different in the ether. Who knows what that means?

Are the tree elves real? I don't recognize them either, and I don't remember any of the ones in the tree elf city calling her "court". Only the teens in the previous Zimmy/Annie/Tree Elf episode, and Annie got them to stop doing that.

For both the NP and tree elves, not recognizing them is not definitive. There are a LOT of each. Hundreds?

Is the Moss Ogre real? Hmmm. The only other time we saw one of those, Ysengrin was training Annie, and she burned a Moss Ogre down to the bone. So this could have something to do with that memory.

It looks to me like we're seeing vignettes cobbled together from memories, but I don't know whether Coyote is doing it on purpose or not. We've seen elements of Zimmy's memory (giant spider monster) and a bunch of elements that could have come from Loup, Ysengrin, Coyote, or Annie. I haven't noticed anything that seems like it's from Renard's memory yet, but he lived in the forest and certainly encountered tree elves and such, so we can't rule him out as a possible source either.

Best guess: Annie and Renard and Kat are real. This is largely based on the radio and the conversations using the radio. No idea on the rest.

[Runningflame]

Oct 12, 2023 0:25:37 GMT pyradonis said:

Everyone's talking about the moss ogre, meanwhile I am just awake much too late in the night and asking myself if this is the first time we've seen a tree elf with a beard.

Looks like this guy in panel 1 has a goatee. It is pretty rare, though. I thought I remembered Khepi's husband Mark having one, but it turns out he's just got a prominent chin.

[pyradonis]

Oct 12, 2023 1:10:26 GMT Runningflame said:

Oct 12, 2023 0:25:37 GMT pyradonis said:

Everyone's talking about the moss ogre, meanwhile I am just awake much too late in the night and asking myself if this is the first time we've seen a tree elf with a beard.

Looks like this guy in panel 1 has a goatee. It is pretty rare, though. I thought I remembered Khepi's husband Mark having one, but it turns out he's just got a prominent chin.

Good find! And I now remembered that Jeanne's boyfriend had some green fuzz on his chin.

[TBeholder]

Oct 11, 2023 7:42:56 GMT Igniz said:

a) It's a fake, just a memory or an illusion.
b) He comes in peace, possibly even looking for help.

Or just moves through, running from something that scares even him.

[Gemminie]

Oct 12, 2023 1:03:18 GMT drmemory said:

Just as a reminder, we don't really know for sure whether anyone we're seeing is both real and really who they look like.

Is Annie there? Yes, but we've seen Zimmy get confused and think she's Annie before.

Is Renard there? Maybe. Annie was holding on to him when they entered, so if she is real and really Annie, he's probably real and really Renard also.

Are the NP real? Maybe, but I don't recognize any of them. Annie seemed to think they were real but looked different in the ether. Who knows what that means?

Are the tree elves real? I don't recognize them either, and I don't remember any of the ones in the tree elf city calling her "court". Only the teens in the previous Zimmy/Annie/Tree Elf episode, and Annie got them to stop doing that.

For both the NP and tree elves, not recognizing them is not definitive. There are a LOT of each. Hundreds?

Is the Moss Ogre real? Hmmm. The only other time we saw one of those, Ysengrin was training Annie, and she burned a Moss Ogre down to the bone. So this could have something to do with that memory.

It looks to me like we're seeing vignettes cobbled together from memories, but I don't know whether Coyote is doing it on purpose or not. We've seen elements of Zimmy's memory (giant spider monster) and a bunch of elements that could have come from Loup, Ysengrin, Coyote, or Annie. I haven't noticed anything that seems like it's from Renard's memory yet, but he lived in the forest and certainly encountered tree elves and such, so we can't rule him out as a possible source either.

Best guess: Annie and Renard and Kat are real. This is largely based on the radio and the conversations using the radio. No idea on the rest.

Although it's true that Tom has played fakeouts on us before, he doesn't seem to use the same trick more than once. Also, it's narratively unsatisfying to readers who find out that nothing they've just read/seen is actually real – so nothing, none of it, has had any consequences, the characters we thought were there didn't experience it and won't remember it, and this will have no impact or even effect on the world? What did I just waste my time reading this for, then? This reminds me of that "Year of Hell" 2-part episode of Star Trek: Voyager, which caused me to quit watching that show – supposedly a year of meaningful, consequential decisions, and then at the end it was all wiped out by time travel, so it never happened and nobody remembers it except the viewers. Or the season of Doctor Who with the flesh creatures that could duplicate anyone, so suddenly nobody knew who was real.

My guess? Tom's not doing that to us again, because he used that trick before. He's up to something, but not that. Annie, Renard, the New People (or at least some of them), the Tree People, and maybe even the Moss Ogre are all real. That instance of Ysengrin probably wasn't real, considering he's known to be dead, but then again, he could've been some sort of projection of the part of Loup who is still Ysengrin. It's probable that there are Coyote tricks going on, and Coyote's had access to all of Ysengrin's memories (if indeed this is Coyote and not just part of Loup that thinks it's Coyote, in which case that part would also have access to Ysengrin's memories), but exactly what he's trying to do is, as usual, unclear.

[drmemory]

Oct 13, 2023 17:11:04 GMT Gemminie said:

Oct 12, 2023 1:03:18 GMT drmemory said:

Just as a reminder, we don't really know for sure whether anyone we're seeing is both real and really who they look like.

Is Annie there? Yes, but we've seen Zimmy get confused and think she's Annie before.

Is Renard there? Maybe. Annie was holding on to him when they entered, so if she is real and really Annie, he's probably real and really Renard also.

Are the NP real? Maybe, but I don't recognize any of them. Annie seemed to think they were real but looked different in the ether. Who knows what that means?

Are the tree elves real? I don't recognize them either, and I don't remember any of the ones in the tree elf city calling her "court". Only the teens in the previous Zimmy/Annie/Tree Elf episode, and Annie got them to stop doing that.

For both the NP and tree elves, not recognizing them is not definitive. There are a LOT of each. Hundreds?

Is the Moss Ogre real? Hmmm. The only other time we saw one of those, Ysengrin was training Annie, and she burned a Moss Ogre down to the bone. So this could have something to do with that memory.

It looks to me like we're seeing vignettes cobbled together from memories, but I don't know whether Coyote is doing it on purpose or not. We've seen elements of Zimmy's memory (giant spider monster) and a bunch of elements that could have come from Loup, Ysengrin, Coyote, or Annie. I haven't noticed anything that seems like it's from Renard's memory yet, but he lived in the forest and certainly encountered tree elves and such, so we can't rule him out as a possible source either.

Best guess: Annie and Renard and Kat are real. This is largely based on the radio and the conversations using the radio. No idea on the rest.

Although it's true that Tom has played fakeouts on us before, he doesn't seem to use the same trick more than once. Also, it's narratively unsatisfying to readers who find out that nothing they've just read/seen is actually real – so nothing, none of it, has had any consequences, the characters we thought were there didn't experience it and won't remember it, and this will have no impact or even effect on the world? What did I just waste my time reading this for, then? This reminds me of that "Year of Hell" 2-part episode of Star Trek: Voyager, which caused me to quit watching that show – supposedly a year of meaningful, consequential decisions, and then at the end it was all wiped out by time travel, so it never happened and nobody remembers it except the viewers. Or the season of Doctor Who with the flesh creatures that could duplicate anyone, so suddenly nobody knew who was real.

My guess? Tom's not doing that to us again, because he used that trick before. He's up to something, but not that. Annie, Renard, the New People (or at least some of them), the Tree People, and maybe even the Moss Ogre are all real. That instance of Ysengrin probably wasn't real, considering he's known to be dead, but then again, he could've been some sort of projection of the part of Loup who is still Ysengrin. It's probable that there are Coyote tricks going on, and Coyote's had access to all of Ysengrin's memories (if indeed this is Coyote and not just part of Loup that thinks it's Coyote, in which case that part would also have access to Ysengrin's memories), but exactly what he's trying to do is, as usual, unclear.

I agree that Tom probably won't repeat a trick, but don't agree that this means everything we are seeing is real.  We have seen that what goes on in Zimmy's worlds can't be taken literally several times.  I'm fairly sure we're seeing scenes constructed from elements taken from memories, rather than the creation of a desert and a giant Ysengrin and a forest, for example.

As part of this, I'm skeptical about whether all of the people we are seeing are real.  My guess is that they are more like... extras.  Even if the NP and elves are really who they appear to be, which is possible because it's certain some of each were caught in the huge globe of darkness when Zimmy's Coyote-fueled power spread over the court, that doesn't mean that the Coyote Ground Hog and the giant Ysengrin and the Moss ogre and friend and the somewhat Annie-like fire elemental are who they appear to be.  Or even that they are real people, rather than constructs there to flesh out the scenes.  Extras, in a movie sense.

[todd]

Oct 13, 2023 17:11:04 GMT Gemminie said:

]Although it's true that Tom has played fakeouts on us before, he doesn't seem to use the same trick more than once. Also, it's narratively unsatisfying to readers who find out that nothing they've just read/seen is actually real – so nothing, none of it, has had any consequences, the characters we thought were there didn't experience it and won't remember it, and this will have no impact or even effect on the world? What did I just waste my time reading this for, then? This reminds me of that "Year of Hell" 2-part episode of Star Trek: Voyager, which caused me to quit watching that show – supposedly a year of meaningful, consequential decisions, and then at the end it was all wiped out by time travel, so it never happened and nobody remembers it except the viewers. Or the season of Doctor Who with the flesh creatures that could duplicate anyone, so suddenly nobody knew who was real.

My guess? Tom's not doing that to us again, because he used that trick before. He's up to something, but not that. Annie, Renard, the New People (or at least some of them), the Tree People, and maybe even the Moss Ogre are all real. That instance of Ysengrin probably wasn't real, considering he's known to be dead, but then again, he could've been some sort of projection of the part of Loup who is still Ysengrin. It's probable that there are Coyote tricks going on, and Coyote's had access to all of Ysengrin's memories (if indeed this is Coyote and not just part of Loup that thinks it's Coyote, in which case that part would also have access to Ysengrin's memories), but exactly what he's trying to do is, as usual, unclear.

I share with you the response to "It was all a dream". Of course, the past "it was all an illusion of Zimmy's" did have consequences of a sort - in revealing more about Zimmy and her inner turmoil. For all we know, Tom might culminate this part of the story with a revelation that the Court, Gilltie Wood, and everyone in them (Annie, Kat, Reynardine, Coyote, Ysengrin, etc.) except for Zimmy and Gamma weren't real, that Gamma was reading a "weird school"-type book to Zimmy in an attempt to calm her but that Zimmy's abilities brought it to life while merging it with her own past, and that it leads to Zimmy confronting some dark secret from her past (maybe her powers doing something horrible to her family which sent her fleeing, guilt-stricken and devastated, out onto the streets where Gamma found her), and dealing with it - with the regular cast winking out of existence in the process, with a tone of "It was all really Zimmy's story, not Annie's or the Court's". I hope Tom won't take that route, but it's just possible.