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Post by gpvos on Jul 14, 2023 13:41:08 GMT
I think I’m in the minority here, but I don’t think this Coyote is actually dead. Since we saw him at the beginning of this chapter, he’s reacted to everyone (unlike the recorded messages) and doesn’t seem to really be dead anymore. Maybe I’m forgetting key context here, but he no longer seems to be without his strength, either. I'm not sure which "recorded messages" you are talking about. There were two earlier echoes of Coyote; while the first one didn't do that much, it did react to its environment (2222), and the second one was quite powerful (2488). It was Loup who sent a recorded message that could not react to its environment (2107). |
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Post by ctso74 on Jul 14, 2023 13:47:53 GMT
Well, this bites.
As long as her CPU is recoverable, I think she'll be fine. Are about to see what an angry Jerrek looks like?
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Post by bedinsis on Jul 14, 2023 14:35:35 GMT
Aside from his death, I don't recall seeing Coyote disappointed/angry/anything but grin for more than a panel or two at a time. In another thread someone claimed that the Coyote of this chapter bore more of a similarity to Loup than to Coyote, personality-wise, and therefore speculated that this was in fact not Coyote, rather either Loup or Loup's impression of Coyote. What I think is going on is that we've never seen Coyote in a situation where he is not in control, so when we see him in such situations he seems different. Regardless of whether it is Coyote we see here or not. So now we see Coyote in a situation where he is not assured in getting to have the last laugh, so to speak. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 14, 2023 15:00:18 GMT
I'm not seeing the point of worrying so far, not even when we saw Ayilu get a sword through the head and Andrew get a knife into the chest [edit]and Shell being pierced by multiple pointed wood-tentacles[/edit] did anyone die or even end the chapter with as much as a scratch. However, this angry Coyote really seems very different from how we usually know him. Is Kat about to have her Lazerus moment? Did Kat make backups of the robots minds ? As I said in another thread, if one wants to be like humans, then being mortal is part of the deal. I really hope the comic does not go the mind backup route, because a) I just hate when sci-fi stories do this and everyone just acts as if the dead person was just resurrected when really this is someone else, and b) I think it would be super creepy if Kat just casually stored copies of people's minds. Regardless, Kat already had her Lazarus moment years ago. You see how easily she gave life.New experience for Coyote: someone beating the snot out of him and actually winning a fight against the god for once. Not completely new, actually. The Bunyip once punched him so hard he was was sent flying from Australia all the way to Europe.Am disappoint that Jerrek/Loup hasn't developed enough already to stand up to Coyote and save her, though. Did anyone expect Coyote to just attack Lana like that before the last panel of the previous page? And no one is standing next to her when he attacks. I don't think Loup, or anyone else, could have reacted fast enough to save Lana. Otherwise you could just as well ask why Annie or Renard didn't try to use any of their own powers. Well, this bites. As long as her CPU is recoverable, I think she'll be fine. If it's just a mechanical CRUNCH, Lana still has a good chance since her personality is on a chip, which can be quite sturdy, and Kat can make a new body for her. It's likely that Kat has at least saved the parameters for the NP's bodies somewhere. But Coyote being a god and a rather virtual being can also mean that anything eaten is just annihilated or consumed in some magic way. Lana has been a fairly flat character anyway compared to the others, so storywise I can see how she's dispensable. , they're not using CPUs anymore. However I agree that on a meta level Lana feels a lot like a character who was just introduced for the sake of character development for Loup, and would be the most dispensable one to kill off at this point. |
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Post by foresterr on Jul 14, 2023 15:36:06 GMT
Last time I remember Coyote ate someone alive, it was preeetty explicit they were scrunched.. This looks very clean by comparison, maybe it's for a reason. But Coyote being a god and a rather virtual being can also mean that anything eaten is just annihilated or consumed in some magic way. Tbh I think it's mostly up to him. The ol' airbag certainly has enough space inside. I just hate when sci-fi stories do this and everyone just acts as if the dead person was just resurrected when really this is someone elseOh dearie me, I want to get into this sf discussion about mind copying and identity and nature of consciousness so much but this is not the right place for it I guess  Not completely new, actually. The Bunyip once punched him from Australia all the way to Europe. Well, he was laughing all the time back then. He ain't laffin' now. If Tom actually subverts one of my most hated tropes here (of the too-cool-for-life character who can never be defeated; at least Coyote is a trickster, but sometimes these guys are plain evil), I will give him a standing ovation. I hope Coyote has to crawl back to the nether howling in frustration (nether, not ether - because I do believe him both when he says he's dead, and that this is the last time he's going to show up).
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Jul 14, 2023 15:55:38 GMT
I say "alive and kicking inside his mouth, until he can go to a quiet place to spit her back out". Him keeping his teeth together is.... a weird look. |
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 14, 2023 15:56:22 GMT
I have no idea what Coyote expects to happen now, but “Loup just does what he is told” is unlikely to be on the list. Maybe the idea is that Loup will attack mostly-illusory Coyote and actually kill Lana, thus returning on the tracks toward the desired angstplosion? Either way, this only gets more and more fishy. Well on the way to “dissociative Zimmingham trip” grade of fishiness, even. I didn't expect the expected to be expected! Gunnerkrigg strange loops strike again! |
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 14, 2023 16:46:30 GMT
Aaaand with a CRUNCH, Coyote's jaws clamp down on Lana (well, the ground under Lana – it looks as if he's chomped her whole). Obviously Loup/Jerrek is hugely upset about this but doesn't use any god powers. In the background, Annie is looking pretty traumatized as well.
Looking back on Loup, the remnants of his mouthful of dirt falling to the ground, Coyote tells Loup with gritted teeth to use the power he gave him. And he rises up into the air, saying that "we" will find this "so-called divine being."
Yes, Lana could be toast at this point, but I think it's quite telling that Coyote bludgeoned his muzzle into the ground when he chomped Lana, to the point of having extra dirt that falls loose to the ground afterward, and that he speaks through gritted teeth thereafter. Quite possibly Lana is perfectly fine inside Coyote's mouth. He may even be talking to her in there (I'm imagining his tongue turning into a little Coyote head), questioning her about this new god or about her relationship with Loup. After all, he's still got a plan, we still don't know what it is, and there may still be a way to get it back on track. That may involve eventually eating Lana, but I don't think he's actually done that yet.
Why does Coyote need Loup to use his power to find this new god? Probably because this is still Coyote's echo we're dealing with; he doesn't have that power himself. I'm not sure what subset of his power Coyote set aside for this meeting, but he clearly needs the help of the real thing. But what will Loup do? Will he go along with Coyote? Or will he become enraged and attack this pseudo-Coyote? After all, Ysengrin attacked and killed Coyote before. Is this Loup's chance to break free and become his own individual? Or will he meekly acquiesce to this image that isn't even the real Coyote?
Should we be worried about Kat? She may be about to receive some visitors.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 14, 2023 16:50:49 GMT
Should mention that the munching of Lana is also semi-metaphorical but (as far as we know) still results in her being eaten... you can see Coyote's teeth become more realistic just before the attack. Am disappoint that Jerrek/Loup hasn't developed enough already to stand up to Coyote and save her, though. Did anyone expect Coyote to just attack Lana like that before the last panel of the previous page? I knew he'd want to kill her. I was pretty sure that he'd restrain himself because it wouldn't advance his plan and Jerrek was eager to talk about the divine being, so there was no good reason to do so... but I also know that Coyote is... well, a dick. He thinks of people like ants. Lana's existence probably meant even less than an ant to him. And no one is standing next to her when he attacks. I don't Loup or anyone else could have reacted fast enough to save Lana. Otherwise you could just as well ask why Annie or Renard didn't try to use any of their own powers. Antimony I understand not saving Lana. She's been groomed by Coyote and hasn't really seen this side of him before, though she does know that he'd just as soon turn a fool inside out from Khepi, and also from the legends. Renard and "Loup" know exactly what Coyote's like, "Loup" probably better than anyone else. I understand why they didn't save Lana either, as he's a god and they've both been subject to his whims and tricks before, and Ysengrin has had decades of abuse from him. Maybe the speed of the attack fits in here; if Jerrek had more time to contemplate what was about to happen he would have done something, or at least said something. Probably. The abuse might have been so bad over such a long period of time that maybe not, not even for Lana. But I do think they knew it was coming, or was at least very possible. What's different now is that "Loup" has Coyote's powers and Coyote is just sorta borrowing them back. Jerrek might have been able to stop him now when before Ysengrin couldn't do anything to protect himself no matter what was happening. Renard might also have been able to do something if he was closer, but he may be hanging back to see how this plays out. Hopefully "Loup" will at least resist Coyote from now on; Coyote might be able to be in two places at once but I don't think he can have/use his power and also not at the same time. Coyote can take back his power at any point he wants but doing so would mean giving up on this plan that he's spent so much time on. |
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Post by stef1987 on Jul 14, 2023 17:44:31 GMT
Why didn't loup even try to prevent Coyote from doing that?
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Post by mochakimono on Jul 14, 2023 18:21:34 GMT
Why didn't loup even try to prevent Coyote from doing that? I think it happened too quickly for anyone to react; not even Lana had time to try to dodge. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 14, 2023 18:56:43 GMT
I do believe him both when he says he's dead, and that this is the last time he's going to show up. Oh, I also believe him... that he was sincerely believing this when he said it. But as we were just demonstrated, not everything Coyote says is true because sometimes he's simply wrong (see also: Coyote mistaking Annie for Surma). It might turn out he tricked himself into believing he is really dead, just like the time he disguised himself as a dead goose. It is (in my opinion) furthermore very likely that "See you one last time!" does not count anymore, because when he said it he still believed everything would go according to his plan. |
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Post by Per on Jul 14, 2023 19:49:50 GMT
Why didn't loup even try to prevent Coyote from doing that? I think it happened too quickly for anyone to react; not even Lana had time to try to dodge. GM: So, Lana is eaten. What do the rest of you do? Lana's player: Like heck I'm eaten! I get to roll to dodge! GM: It just happened too fast, there was no chance. Now, what - Lana's player: Oh great! I'm dead because you just wanted me to be! Why are we even playing this game if we're not using the rules! *rips up character sheet, storms out, hops into a car and drives off and into a tree* GM: *facepalms* |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 14, 2023 20:19:24 GMT
[random] Not that it matters, probably, but I wonder if there are any Seraphs nearby. They sometimes creep around to watch over the Noobmenz, might have witnessed these events, not sure what they could do about it. [/random]
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Post by ophidiophile on Jul 14, 2023 21:53:33 GMT
Kat and Coyote have never seen each other, and I suspect they can't. They both have strong reality warping etheric presences, and it's possible that there is no place for the other in their individual realities. Kat mentally would reject Coyote as being too chaotic, and Coyote would reject Kat for being able to do stuff he can't (and can't understand, especially now that she is connected to a computer). When they all meet Kat, Loup is going to realize he can see both, making him able to do something Coyote can't.
As for Lana, she's safe. Coyote believes Loup loves Lana, and he's going to keep her around until he figures out how he can use her.
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Post by Angry Individual on Jul 14, 2023 22:08:09 GMT
well tickle me surprised
guess ill have to eat my own words on doubting coyote actually doing anything
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Post by foresterr on Jul 15, 2023 0:13:10 GMT
I do believe him both when he says he's dead, and that this is the last time he's going to show up. Oh, I also believe him... that he was sincerely believing this when he said it. But as we were just demonstrated, not everything Coyote says is true because sometimes he's simply wrong (see also: Coyote mistaking Annie for Surma). It might turn out he tricked himself into believing he is really dead, just like the time he disguised himself as a dead goose. It is (in my opinion) very likely that "See you one last time!" does not count anymore, because when he said it he still believed everything would go according to his plan. Could very well be! I guess a lot hinges on what exactly Coyote meant by describing those appearances as "parts of him, locked away" (more like, parts of him, made indigestible...). Those "parts" don't seem to have much in the way of limitations, tbh, but maybe they still can't revert to being "full" Coyote (I'm not too clear, though, on what the practical difference would be between Coyote coming fully back and part of him refusing to go away). |
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Post by Runningflame on Jul 15, 2023 0:21:17 GMT
I think it happened too quickly for anyone to react; not even Lana had time to try to dodge. GM: So, Lana is eaten. What do the rest of you do? Lana's player: Like heck I'm eaten! I get to roll to dodge! GM: It just happened too fast, there was no chance. Now, what - Lana's player: Oh great! I'm dead because you just wanted me to be! Why are we even playing this game if we're not using the rules! *rips up character sheet, storms out, hops into a car and drives off and into a tree* GM: *facepalms* I like it! But we all know Lana's an NPC. |
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Post by arf on Jul 15, 2023 2:03:15 GMT
Something just occurred to me: Lana's death might encourage Loup to follow her into the afterlife.
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Post by madjack on Jul 15, 2023 6:32:16 GMT
I'm not seeing the point of worrying so far, not even when we saw Ayilu get a sword through the head and Andrew get a knife into the chest did anyone die or even end the chapter with as much as a scratch. However, this angry Coyote really seems very different from how we usually know him. Is Kat about to have her Lazerus moment? Did Kat make backups of the robots minds ? As I said in another thread, if one wants to be like humans, then being mortal is part of the deal. I really hope the comic does not go the mind backup route, because a) I just hate when sci-fi stories do this and everyone just acts as if the dead person was just resurrected when really this is someone else, and b) I think it would be super creepy if Kat just casually stored copies of people's minds. Regardless, Kat already had her Lazarus moment years ago. You see how easily she gave life.Key word here is 'like' humans, though. Both Lana herself and the Seraph robots explicitly describe the New People as 'not human'. They may not have continuity of consciousness but actual backups is a real possibility. Have we seen the NPs sleep? That really would be the perfect time for a brain backup wouldn't it? If it's just a mechanical CRUNCH, Lana still has a good chance since her personality is on a chip, which can be quite sturdy, and Kat can make a new body for her. It's likely that Kat has at least saved the parameters for the NP's bodies somewhere. But Coyote being a god and a rather virtual being can also mean that anything eaten is just annihilated or consumed in some magic way. Lana has been a fairly flat character anyway compared to the others, so storywise I can see how she's dispensable. , they're not using CPUs anymore. However I agree that on a meta level Lana feels a lot like a character who was just introduced for the sake of character development for Loup, and would be the most dispensable one to kill off at this point. While it's not a true fridging (Lana at least got some proper development) it's close enough that quite a few people thought she would be saved from this. It's also not really something we've seen before in this comic where a character is created and killed off just to give impetus and/or inner conflict to another, especially not killing a character that was partially comic relief. It'd be kind of disappointing if that is all her death ended up being, so while we get the reminder that Coyote ain't anyone's bro, it needs to be setting up more than that. Kat bringing her back to life would be one likely example, Annie being the NP psychopomp if it turns out she can't be saved would be another. |
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Post by hnau on Jul 15, 2023 7:45:08 GMT
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Post by blahzor on Jul 15, 2023 8:49:55 GMT
I think I’m in the minority here, but I don’t think this Coyote is actually dead. Since we saw him at the beginning of this chapter, he’s reacted to everyone (unlike the recorded messages) and doesn’t seem to really be dead anymore. Maybe I’m forgetting key context here, but he no longer seems to be without his strength, either. i mean since his power seems to be acquiring power at will, he can never really lose anything |
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Post by blahzor on Jul 15, 2023 8:52:52 GMT
I'm not seeing the point of worrying so far, not even when we saw Ayilu get a sword through the head and Andrew get a knife into the chest did anyone die or even end the chapter with as much as a scratch. However, this angry Coyote really seems very different from how we usually know him. Is Kat about to have her Lazerus moment? Did Kat make backups of the robots minds ? As I said in another thread, if one wants to be like humans, then being mortal is part of the deal. I really hope the comic does not go the mind backup route, because a) I just hate when sci-fi stories do this and everyone just acts as if the dead person was just resurrected when really this is someone else, and b) I think it would be super creepy if Kat just casually stored copies of people's minds. Regardless, Kat already had her Lazarus moment years ago. You see how easily she gave life.i think the "bad" Kat would just make a new copy of Lana, this new one wouldn't. The bigger question is..will a Pyschopomp show up next page for Lana or will they show up and tell Annie she must take them into the ether |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 15, 2023 15:59:09 GMT
Key word here is 'like' humans, though. Both Lana herself and the Seraph robots explicitly describe the New People as 'not human'. They may not have continuity of consciousness but actual backups is a real possibility. Have we seen the NPs sleep? That really would be the perfect time for a brain backup wouldn't it? Yes, they are aware they are not human, but also that they aren't robots anymore. And usually their discussions about evolving included how to be more like humans. For example most of the NP chose a randomized body because humans can't choose the body they are born with either. Or S13 explaining in a sermon why it is so awesome to feel pain, just like humans. And finally, Kat's explicit goal was to turn them into living beings (which was successful, according to the Arbiter). Isn't being able to die one of the fundamental characteristics of living beings? This is also supported by another of S13's sermons, in which he claims the burn piece of lab-grown flesh is the first of them "to die a proper death". I'm sure he'd be even more excited about the first NP to die a proper death by their brain and mind stopping. Something just occurred to me: Lana's death might encourage Loup to follow her into the afterlife. Where you lose your memories even before going through the door, and then are likely dissolved into fuel to keep the world on spinning? Not very encouraging, IMHO. |
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Post by fwip on Jul 16, 2023 1:31:49 GMT
<wildspec>
Coyote is not really dead. He wants to experience death, as foreshadowed by the dead goose/lake story, so he is trying to provoke others into killing him. But for whatever reason it's not sticking, so he keeps coming back, due to the beliefs that created him in the first place. He returns playing the role that those beliefs dictate he must play.
Ysengrin already killed him once. There's no way he doesn't know how eating Loup's girlfriend in front of him is likely to turn out. Annie also has his tooth and may potentially be capable of killing him as well. And who knows what Kat has up her sleeve. So he's pissing off three people potentially capable of killing him - this just seems too reckless to be accidental.
</wildspec>
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Post by liminal on Jul 16, 2023 3:42:42 GMT
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 16, 2023 13:23:25 GMT
A low-hanging fruit, but… COYOTE SMASH CRUNCH
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coyotee
New Member
Don't kill off Coyote
Posts: 1
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Post by coyotee on Jul 16, 2023 17:57:54 GMT
Cookies for the two who went with the "Lana doesn't get out of this" option. (Although 'Mecha-Goddess Arises' is still in contention!) Which power is Coyote referring to? Strength, presumably. I kind of hate Lana so if she doesn't get out of this I'll be so happy. |
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jul 16, 2023 19:00:11 GMT
Something just occurred to me: Lana's death might encourage Loup to follow her into the afterlife. oh, I like this idea. Very Shakespearean. * Loup grabs the giggle blade* "O happy dagger, this is thy sheath!" etc. etc. Coyote then spits out Lana, covered with doggy drool, but otherwise OK. If we follow the formula, Lana would then suicide out. But, since this is Tom, she could then reveal that she's been a Dead Goose's Wife this whole time. |
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Post by Runningflame on Jul 16, 2023 20:39:57 GMT
Cookies for the two who went with the "Lana doesn't get out of this" option. (Although 'Mecha-Goddess Arises' is still in contention!) Which power is Coyote referring to? Strength, presumably. I kind of hate Lana so if she doesn't get out of this I'll be so happy. Username checks out.  (Welcome to the forum!) |
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