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Post by jda on May 19, 2023 17:46:00 GMT
They're not going to let him go, are they? I mean, sure, listen to what the mad god has to say, hear him out or whatever. But I get the gut feeling that any early release of Jerrek will lead to him saying "later, dweebs!" before making a Looney Tunes exit. I feel that the cage is only a small trick to Jerrek, and there is no way it could contain Loup's true essence. I think if the negotiations go south, he will say: "Oh well, I hoped I wouldnt have to do this" and procceed to extricate himself in a totally Looney Tunes way, like |
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Post by Runningflame on May 19, 2023 18:54:19 GMT
With this in mind, I found the revelations over the last weeks to be disappointing. We both find out that robots can lie and that Annie and Kat already knew this information, so there was not much reader's advantage to speak of; it was all charades. I see what you're trying to say; but I don't see why the revelations would be disapointing. I don't remember it ever being stated in the comic that robots CAN'T lie; has it been stated somewhere, or is it just the common assumption in sci-fi works that machines can't say any non-true statements? The place that comes to mind is chapter 12; interestingly, it's Annie(Bot) who says, "Robots never lie," to which DoorBot responds, "Hey, you're right!" Combining that with this page, the belief that robots can't lie seems to be common, but I'm not sure we've heard it stated by a reliable source. (Maybe someone remembers somewhere else it was mentioned?) Robot engineered the Ship incident. He's always on the anti-villain / anti-hero demilitarised zone. Of course, the risk of hanging out in the demilitarized zone is that eventually both sides get fed up and start shooting at you. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 19, 2023 19:00:18 GMT
[edit] Whoops, ninja'd by five minutes or so. [/edit] I don't remember it ever being stated in the comic that robots CAN'T lie; has it been stated somewhere, or is it just the common assumption in sci-fi works that machines can't say any non-true statements? The source of the "robots never lie" theory was this page early in the comic where Antimony talks her way past the door-bot. The signs here (and this one here) that the seraphs made to obscure the purpose of locations, Kat's conversation with Bobby, and Robot's poor performance in that charade arranged by Antimony (particularly this page here) seem to suggest that the robots were strategically able to make omissions to cause misunderstandings, but couldn't lie without using a formulation that expresses the entire truth they wished to obscure. [edit] So, it seems that Antimony Capt. Kirk'd her way past the door-bot with circular reasoning based on something that was effectively true if not literally true. [/edit] However, as you correctly observed, Robot is no longer the robot he once was. He may even be bearing a grudge (conscious or non) because of that business with Ysengrin and the wooden arm (which led to Antimony nearly dying). Robot did have a big smile on his face when he was deceiving Jerrek/Loup, which makes me think that he thought it was a moment where a big smile was appropriate. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on May 19, 2023 19:27:01 GMT
Wow. Robot is way better at intrigue.
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laaaa
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Post by laaaa on May 19, 2023 20:03:37 GMT
The place that comes to mind is chapter 12; interestingly, it's Annie(Bot) who says, "Robots never lie," to which DoorBot responds, "Hey, you're right!" Combining that with this page, the belief that robots can't lie seems to be common, but I'm not sure we've heard it stated by a reliable source. (Maybe someone remembers somewhere else it was mentioned?) The source of the "robots never lie" theory was this page early in the comic where Antimony talks her way past the door-bot. The signs here (and this one here) that the seraphs made to obscure the purpose of locations, Kat's conversation with Bobby, and Robot's poor performance in that charade arranged by Antimony (particularly this page here) seem to suggest that the robots were strategically able to make omissions to cause misunderstandings, but couldn't lie without using a formulation that expresses the entire truth they wished to obscure. [edit] So, it seems that Antimony Capt. Kirk'd her way past the door-bot with circular reasoning based on something that was effectively true if not literally true. [/edit] However, as you correctly observed, Robot is no longer the robot he once was. He may even be bearing a grudge (conscious or non) because of that business with Ysengrin and the wooden arm (which led to Antimony nearly dying). Robot did have a big smile on his face when he was deceiving Jerrek/Loup, which makes me think that he thought it was a moment where a big smile was appropriate. Thank you guys for correcting me! I see it was a reasonable assumption from the fans that "robots can't lie". And by "reasonable assumption" I mean "Annie literally said it is so". Looking back (and attempting to retroactively explain this), it might be more accurate that "robots can't lie effectively" (because they definitely try to deceive others) or "robots don't have the mental capacity to understand how to lie effectively" or maybe even "robots are programmed to serve, so while they have the freedom to lie, they do not want to excercise it". I suspect the original phrase Annie said might have mainly been used as a joke. Robot was held for "spreading misinformation and rumour" www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1143 and "being up to his old tricks again" (okay guys maybe we should REALLY worry about Robot), although it was unclear if the other robots thought he was being deceitful or just malfunctioning. Arthur must also have been capable of effective deceipt, to actively hide Kat from the other shadow men... |
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laaaa
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Post by laaaa on May 19, 2023 20:08:09 GMT
I have a question: If Robot, did, indeed, betray Kat, delayed informing her, and was playing both sides, why come clean at all? What change triggered him to say he had just contacted Loup?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 19, 2023 21:58:18 GMT
I have a question: If Robot, did, indeed, betray Kat, delayed informing her, and was playing both sides, why come clean at all? What change triggered him to say he had just contacted Loup? Allow me to answer your simple question with a long and meandering post. There's still some gray area about what exactly happened and when. My reading of the comic is that while the girls could have been suspicious they shouldn't have known that Jerrek was "Loup" before Robot made that deal (see my reasoning here) and exactly when they did know isn't clear since they were pretending not to. Remember, in the GCU there are other entities who can shape-shift or mimic others so while they may have been reasonably sure Jerrek wasn't really a Nooman that doesn't necessarily mean Jerrek was "Loup." A lot of creatures were displaced from Gillite so he wouldn't necessarily be a spy for "Loup" either. It might have been something as harmless as a Dover Demon or it might have been something very dangerous, though less powerful than "Loup," but requiring specialized tactics or tools to deal with. Additionally, we can infer that there's a creature that could mimic "Loup" as well as a Nooman, though I'm not sure one would dare, so even the half-Jerrek half-Louppine form isn't absolute certainty, just as much certainty as exists in the GCU at any given moment. Maybe Robot was sent or went to confront Jerrek because he is a robot, therefore less threatening and less-likely to be mind-read (or whatever) so that a shape-shifter would be more likely to come clean. Alternatively, he's more easily repaired than the girls should it turn out to be something dangerous. (shrug) It may be the case that one or both girls was suspicious of Jerrek and either asked Robot to confirm he was "Loup" or inquired about the simple possibility, which lead Robot to decide to confront Jerrek on his own initiative. Robot apparently had reason to be suspicious of Jerrek early on so he may have been surveilling Jerrek entirely on his own. Maybe Robot making the deal was the girls' (or a girl's) plan or maybe it was something Robot improvised on his own or with input from the Seraphs; by making the deal he bought time, and maybe he did tell the girls right away (more or less) and they all discussed it for a while before making a decision. However, there's sufficient gaps in what we've seen in the comic that Robot could have delayed telling Kat and/or Antimony that Jerrek was "Loup" for a significant period of time. If he did so there's several possible reasons why. Some are innocent, some not. Like I said before, he may just have been waiting for an opportunity to report where he could be reasonably certain that Jerrek was elsewhere and distracted, and that could mandate more surveillance time to be sure that Jerrek wasn't behaving any differently than he was before he was confronted. Robot may have been thinking about how to frame his report, or take other actions, to maximize positive outcomes (perhaps manipulating the girls so they would come to a decision he thought was best, or perhaps just going over all the possible options so they all could make the best-informed decisions possible). He may even have been thinking about betraying Antimony so as to safeguard the Angel, or at least the Angel's work, if the need arose... and if that's the case I think the deciding factor would have been Kat successfully improving the anti-Loup cage tech. If it turns out that's when he told the girls that Jerrek was "Loup" for sure, then there's reason to be suspicious. Even then, Robot could have been thinking of protecting the girls by cutting them out of the "Loup" trapping business altogether, trying to handle things himself or with the Seraphs... or he could have been thinking of prioritizing protecting Nooman-kind; the beloved and useful Angel has gotten them to the next phase so she isn't strictly necessary for Noomankind to continue and thrive. Or some combination of one or more of these things. Hopefully we'll learn more. By the way, back around when Robot confronted Jerrek in the comic I was pretty sure the correct move on Jerrek's part would have been to eat Robot immediately and I still think that. It's just common sense. |
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Post by maxptc on May 20, 2023 0:03:02 GMT
Hey, Aata tried to kill Loup, admitted to helping zombify the Court robots, and generally expresses pro-human bigotry whenever he has the opportunity. But, if we intentionally paint Aata as good like you did with Robot he, at worst, tried to stop a monster, tweaked some of his appliances to non factory settings and is concerned about those without magic not those with. Unless we decided to paint robot as a bad guy. Then at worst, Robot is a liar who's plot put a large group of bystanders in extreme danger which resulted in Kat having to commit murder while further ingraining himself into the group which he isn't truly loyal to. Just goes to show morality is at least partly based on likeablity. |
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Post by blahzor on May 20, 2023 0:23:35 GMT
Robot spreading misinformation is things they couldn't proof yet but was technically will be true. A oddity
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laaaa
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Post by laaaa on May 20, 2023 8:07:19 GMT
I have a question: If Robot, did, indeed, betray Kat, delayed informing her, and was playing both sides, why come clean at all? What change triggered him to say he had just contacted Loup? Allow me to answer your simple question with a long and meandering post. Your post was very interesting to read and I agree with all of your points, but please try again with another long and meandering post, because my question did not get answered, hehe! Allow me to re-phrase my question with a long and meandering post of my own (which, as I write it, turns into several different questions):  There are many "best-intentions" reasons for Robot to delay reporting back to Kat and Annie, as you suggested. The main one I would think if *I* was Robot: I'd be worried that Annie and Kat would react differently next time they saw Jerrek; they might be more stressed and that might give Robot's actions away. Also, it's not unreasonable to think that Loup might keep a close eye to Robot at least on the first days, to make sure he keeps his part of the deal. Therefore, it's not a bad idea to delay the report. (Although, I would like to point out that Annie says that Robot told them "immediately". This suggests that Robot was clear (or seemed clear) about when the interaction with Loup took place. Now, if you were Robot and coming out to Kat and Annie and telling them of your discovery with a few days of delay for benign reasons, why make them think that your discovery was a super-recent thing? Why say "I *just* found out this thing" instead of "I found this thing out X days ago, and I think this is the safe moment to tell you"? So, while there are good reasons for best-intentions-Robot to delay his report, I cannot find any good reasons for Robot to hide the fact he delayed his report. Anyway, I see five different scenarios for what happened: 1) Robot did NOT betray Kat and Annie, and he did in fact tell them immediately-immediately. As in, rushed in their homes the same night (which is also the same night Renard's body was destroyed and Kat found out about the Star Ocean) and told them about Loup (man, they must have not slept at ALL that night). Annie has just a super good poker face (which, let's be honest, she does) and deliberately talked to Loup about Aata's revelations and the Star Ocean to... I dunno, maintain the disguise? Maybe she was also collecting info. 2) Robot did NOT betray Kat and Annie, and he did in fact tell them the next day, but not immediately-immediately; so, he told them the noon of the next day or something, which is AFTER Annie had already confided Aata's revelations to Loup but before she took the train with him to the Star Ocean. I think this is the most likely scenario. 3) Robot did NOT betray Kat and Annie, but delayed his report for an undisclosed number of days, for the benign reasons you suggested. However, WHY did he lie about not-delaying his report? Why did he make them think his discovery was a recent thing? 4) Robot DID betray Kat and Annie, delayed his report, lied to them about not-delaying his report, and then betrayed Loup as well. If so, why did he turn against Loup? What prompted him to change his attitude and reveal Jerrek's identity? (That was the question I asked in my original post ) 5) Robot DID betray Kat and Annie but did NOT betray Loup. Sadly, he has typical-court-robot lying skills and told them "Hi angel, hi Annie! Jerrek is NOT Loup, I did NOT confront him about it and I did NOT offer to maintain his disguise in return for New People safety! Toodles!" which Annie and Kat interpreted as Robot being upfront with them while technically "keeping his part of the deal", while Robot was internally "curses! foiled by my own robot logic again" (I also think Loup should have just vaporized Robot or something, if he wanted to be super careful. I think he was mainly amused by Robot's actions. People WOULD question though what happened to Robot, with Court and Loup being the main possible culprits. It would not be a huge logical leap that Loup might be hiding among the New People, and the two New People who are suddenly super chummy with Annie might seem suspicious. And that's without taking into the consideration of Robot filming his interaction and sending it somewhere live. Loup might have to be more careful to maintain his disguise then. I think he's just an impulsive being and decided in the heat of the moment.) |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 20, 2023 13:11:42 GMT
(Assuming) Robot DID betray Kat and Annie, delayed his report, lied to them about not-delaying his report, and then betrayed Loup as well... why did he turn against Loup? What prompted him to change his attitude and reveal Jerrek's identity? (That was the question I asked in my original post ) Heh. I actually did try to answer but it was buried in the wall of text. If Robot was planning to honor his agreement with Jerrek, and in doing so betray Kat and Antimony or just Antimony, then the most likely thing we know about that could change his mind would be Kat succeeding in improving her trap-tech to such an extent that Robot figured that he no longer had anything to gain by keeping his word. A less-likely reason could be that the girls first told Robot that they were suspicious of Jerrek after Robot had already confronted Jerrek and confirmed Jerrek was in fact "Loup." In that case the secret was going to come out anyway so after that point he had nothing to gain by keeping his word. I would like to point out that Annie says that Robot told them "immediately"... This suggests that Robot was clear (or seemed clear) about when the interaction with Loup took place. Antimony may only have the impression Robot gave for that. I cannot find any good reasons for Robot to hide the fact he delayed his report. I can hypothesize a possible one. What if Robot had taken action to maintain the Jerrek disguise before he decided to break the agreement? He'd need time to get rid of any evidence, neutralize any witnesses, and to make it seem that he was confronting/surveilling Jerrek later than he was. Anyway, I see five different scenarios for what happened... I count seven ways the basic facts could have gone down depending on who talked to who when. In three of these scenarios Robot reports right away but in four he doesn't. Of the four where Robot delays reporting, Robot can still have Kat and Antimony's interests at heart in three so I think that it's much more likely that he played it straight with them... but there's a little room for doubt. People WOULD question though what happened to Robot, with Court and Loup being the main possible culprits. It would not be a huge logical leap that Loup might be hiding among the New People, and the two New People who are suddenly super chummy with Annie might seem suspicious. And that's without taking into the consideration of Robot filming his interaction and sending it somewhere live. Loup might have to be more careful to maintain his disguise then. I think he's just an impulsive being and decided in the heat of the moment. Ah, but "Loup" has god-powers. He could've stopped time or gotten rid of Robot so quickly that even if Robot was linked to a network it wouldn't be recorded. Then he could have digested what Robot knows (sure, he didn't need to eat him to do that but Robot needs to go anyway so why not kill two birds with one stone) and made a fake Robot using that knowledge. The fake could be used to support the Jerrek disguise (oops, my transmitter randomly stopped transmitting) and to stage Robot's death later in a way that Jerrek wouldn't be a suspect. |
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laaaa
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Post by laaaa on May 20, 2023 14:40:24 GMT
Heh. I actually did try to answer but it was buried in the wall of text. If Robot was planning to honor his agreement with Jerrek, and in doing so betray Kat and Antimony or just Antimony, then the most likely thing we know about that could change his mind would be Kat succeeding in improving her trap-tech to such an extent that Robot figured that he no longer had anything to gain by keeping his word. A less-likely reason could be that the girls first told Robot that they were suspicious of Jerrek after Robot had already confronted Jerrek and confirmed Jerrek was in fact "Loup." In that case the secret was going to come out anyway so after that point he had nothing to gain by keeping his word. Oops! Sorry man, I missed it! Yeah that makes sense :-) Thanks for taking the time to reply! Ah, but "Loup" has god-powers. He could've stopped time or gotten rid of Robot so quickly that even if Robot was linked to a network it wouldn't be recorded. Then he could have digested what Robot knows (sure, he didn't need to eat him to do that but Robot needs to go anyway so why not kill two birds with one stone) and made a fake Robot using that knowledge. The fake could be used to support the Jerrek disguise (oops, my transmitter randomly stopped transmitting) and to stage Robot's death later in a way that Jerrek wouldn't be a suspect. It might be possible that Robot has recording devices not on his person, but hidden somewhere, sending video to another location; or maybe a remote timer set to send a message about what happened to him, etc. He's a robot, he has technology and stuff. I think if he REALLY wanted to leave a trail pointing to Loup, he would be successful. Or rather: the lazier Loup was, the most likely Robot would be successful in passing a message. If Loup was Light Yagami level careful, Robot would vanish without a trace. I don't know if Loup grasps the full extent of technology's possibilities and if he was thinking of allll the stuff I mentioned above when he made his decision. I think he was mainly surprised by Robot and didn't think this through. I suspect he understood that there might be some grain of truth in "you will be found out shortly thereafter" and hesitated. I feel like he enjoyed Robot's perceived maliciousness so much that this alone made him want to comply instead of thinking things more thoroughly. Also, as some commenters have suggested, Loup is not omnipotent. Apparently it takes skill and effort to achieve any of the things Coyote could do... which Loup doesn't seem to possess in full. If he could effortlessly and abruptly stop time, he would not get himself caught in a cage (Coyote managed to free himself in time in a similar scenario). If he could absorb memories he would... well, he could get a lot of the information he wants a lot more directly. He had to deliberately spy on Annie, it did not happen automatically at all times; as a result he missed the conversations she had with Robot. Or maybe he's enjoying this game and handicaps himself in purpose? |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 20, 2023 17:58:00 GMT
It might be possible that Robot has recording devices not on his person, but hidden somewhere, sending video to another location; or maybe a remote timer set to send a message about what happened to him, etc. He's a robot, he has technology and stuff. I think if he REALLY wanted to leave a trail pointing to Loup, he would be successful. Or rather: the lazier Loup was, the most likely Robot would be successful in passing a message. If Loup was Light Yagami level careful, Robot would vanish without a trace. I don't know if Loup grasps the full extent of technology's possibilities and if he was thinking of allll the stuff I mentioned above when he made his decision. True! However, with his OP status "Loup" doesn't have to be smart, insightful, tech-savvy, or exceptionally careful. He just has to know that Robot would be missed if he disappeared (which Robot helpfully tells him just in case he forgot) and that there's a possibility that Robot "did something." "Loup" doesn't have to know who would miss Robot when or what measures Robot might have taken because Robot knows. The only concepts he has to understand are "threat" and "bite." I think he was mainly surprised by Robot and didn't think this through. I suspect he understood that there might be some grain of truth in "you will be found out shortly thereafter" and hesitated. I feel like he enjoyed Robot's perceived maliciousness so much that this alone made him want to comply instead of thinking things more thoroughly. Very possible. I think it's a combination of at least two things. First, he's displaying dominance and Robot isn't disputing that dominance at all. It's the nature of forest creatures and such to bare teeth to assert their power. Robot's response is to effectively offer to become a useful subordinate in exchange for something "Loup" doesn't really care about, but could understand that Robot would want. In Gillite Wood it would be suicide for a creature to betray a vastly more powerful creature in this manner, and Robot and his offer appear rational. Second, "Loup" was relying on the somewhat-true-but-greatly-outdated knowledge about robots not being able to lie, and that made him take Robot's offer at face value. Getting one of Antimony's friends/subordinates to betray her in a Machiavellian way would be a sweetener to that deal, confirming in a way that his worldview trumps hers (not that he really understands hers yet). Another possible factor is that "Loup" is mostly Ysengrin with Coyote's powers and part of Ysengrin's nature was falling into his own traps and getting tricked. I expect that "Loup" is an attempted improvement on that, though. Apparently it takes skill and effort to achieve any of the things Coyote could do... which Loup doesn't seem to possess in full. If he could effortlessly and abruptly stop time, he would not get himself caught in a cage (Coyote managed to free himself in time in a similar scenario). If he could absorb memories he would... well, he could get a lot of the information he wants a lot more directly. He had to deliberately spy on Annie, it did not happen automatically at all times; as a result he missed the conversations she had with Robot. Or maybe he's enjoying this game and handicaps himself in purpose? I'm not sure how much effort it would take for "Loup" to stop time but he has shown that he can do it. As far as how quickly he can do it, Antimony and Kat caught him by surprise so him not doing it in this instance doesn't mean he can't do it fast... if he thinks of it. It is true that Coyote told "Loup" that he wouldn't obtain understanding through force... but we're talking about knowledge here and we have seen him know things apparently just through his connection with the ether. He's probably nowhere near as good as Coyote would have been if he wanted to be, but if he thinks of it he can probably do it. If he can take Coyote's memories that Coyote didn't go to elaborate lengths to safeguard then he should be able to take Robot's data even if he doesn't know what data is until he takes it (but again, he can only do that if he thinks of it). Stalking's natural for a wolf and sure, he probably did enjoy spying on Antimony et al. He likely thought he was really putting one over on her... and at first he probably was. I think I wrote a thousand-word essay on other better things he could've done, though, but "Loup" probably didn't devote any more thought to the infiltration and disguise than was shown in the comic... a few minutes at most. So, here we are. There's probably several ways he can escape from Kat's cage... if he thinks of them. |
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Post by pyradonis on May 20, 2023 18:13:46 GMT
"He told us right away."? I'm not so sure. That would mean Annie knew that Jerrek was Loup at this point and telling him all kinds of information she had just found out, being obviously friendly with him. And then agreeing to go to the Star Ocean with him without any backup or protection. Annie just doesn't act at all as if she knew. Annie knows Loup is not inclined to harm her, and could have been fishing for information. And fuming at Aata could mask her irritation at Loup. But yes. If not right away, most likely S13 considers the deal broken by Loup. Not that he does not have any reasons. Hey, Aata tried to kill Loup, admitted to helping zombify the Court robots, and generally expresses pro-human bigotry whenever he has the opportunity. But, if we intentionally paint Aata as good like you did with Robot he, at worst, tried to stop a monster, tweaked some of his appliances to non factory settings and is concerned about those without magic not those with. Unless we decided to paint robot as a bad guy. Then at worst, Robot is a liar who's plot put a large group of bystanders in extreme danger which resulted in Kat having to commit murder while further ingraining himself into the group which he isn't truly loyal to. Just goes to show morality is at least partly based on likeablity. See also: Some of the fandom's most liked characters in this comic continuously abusing and gaslighting those who love them. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 20, 2023 19:38:42 GMT
Bizarre and suspicious as it is, something like this doesn't exactly scream, "Suspect Jerrek!" even if there isn't a CPU (or anything else) in the debris...  |
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Post by mturtle7 on May 21, 2023 0:23:06 GMT
With this in mind, I found the revelations over the last weeks to be disappointing. We both find out that robots can lie and that Annie and Kat already knew this information, so there was not much reader's advantage to speak of; it was all charades. I see what you're trying to say; but I don't see why the revelations would be disapointing. I don't remember it ever being stated in the comic that robots CAN'T lie; has it been stated somewhere, or is it just the common assumption in sci-fi works that machines can't say any non-true statements? Even if robots cannot technically lie, Robot is not... the robot-robot he once was. We already see that he has imagination and wishes and desires, and that he is capable of duplicity (either by tricking Loup, or by betraying Kat). Even if Court robots were originally unable to lie, I don't see why it would be far-fetched to think that Robot, with all the augmentations and relationships he has been through, should not have been able to develop this ability. What I'm trying to say is, I cannot see why whether Robot was able to lie or not was such a crucial hint that we were deprived of? This is one of those absurdly-long callbacks Tom likes to do sometimes - waaayyyy back in Chapter 12, there was a comedic scene where Annie claims that robots never lie, and the guard-bot she was just lying to cheerfully confirms this as truth. Granted, in that same scene Annie convinces the guard bot that she herself is a robot because she's wearing antennae, so it's not like that was ever, like, 100% certain confirmation of canon. But none of us really had a reason to NOT accept it as canon, either. To my knowledge, there's never been another instance in the comic of a robot lying to someone outright, and they have plenty of other eccentricities which make a "incapable of lying" seem like an entirely plausible trait for them. So Kat saying now that all Court robots are fully capable of lying (note: she's not just saying Robot can lie, so any special qualities he may or may not have are not relevant here) DOES feel like a rug just got pulled out from under the audience, just a little bit. And not in a fun way.
The headcanon I've had for a while, which I actually really liked, is that almost none of the robots can lie, except for the Seraphs; their unique design and role as 'secret police' make them just barely able to grasp the concept enough to be able to contradict an explicitly-stated truth, hence all the ridiculous signs which the Serpahs have unreasonable confidence in (in my headcanon, this also includes this similar gag sign in chapter 3). And you know what? I'm just gonna keep this headcanon. It's WAY more fun and feels like it fits the way robots have always acted way more than just going "oh all that was just a running gag and robots were totally capable of lying this whole time."
EDIT: Welp, I made this post before noticing there was a second page of comments, and I paid for it. Turns out Runningflame and imaginaryfriend were able to provide way better explanations than mine! Oh well. |
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Post by drmemory on May 21, 2023 5:06:15 GMT
I still don't trust Robot. Also, Asimov would be very disappointed.
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Post by maxptc on May 21, 2023 19:35:21 GMT
But, if we intentionally paint Aata as good like you did with Robot he, at worst, tried to stop a monster, tweaked some of his appliances to non factory settings and is concerned about those without magic not those with. Unless we decided to paint robot as a bad guy. Then at worst, Robot is a liar who's plot put a large group of bystanders in extreme danger which resulted in Kat having to commit murder while further ingraining himself into the group which he isn't truly loyal to. Just goes to show morality is at least partly based on likeablity. See also: Some of the fandom's most liked characters in this comic continuously abusing and gaslighting those who love them. Hey, Boxbot abuses and gaslights everyone around him sure. But I think calling him one of the fandoms most liked characters is unfair. |
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Post by TBeholder on May 21, 2023 19:50:02 GMT
Or simpler: robots rarely lie because they stink at it… and know they usually fail. Also, Asimov would be very disappointed. Well… His specification may be great for Marxist ivory tower professors in habit of patching holes with wishful thinking, smoke and mirrors. From an engineering point of view, it’s a recipe for amazing train wreck. * * * * * * *See also the song from Bikini Black Special with “Asimov Laws” in the name (NSFW).  |
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Post by Gemminie on May 22, 2023 15:52:51 GMT
Jerrek asks how Annie, Kat, and Renard knew that he was Loup. Kat's reponse: Robot told them.
Jerrek is clearly astonished by this revelation. Annie states that Robot made the deal with Loup and then told Kat, Annie, etc. about it, which means that the deal was Robot's idea, although it's still unclear when exactly Robot learned that Jerrek was Loup. Jerrek moves on to being angry that Robot lied to him, and then we readers are surprised to learn that, according to Kat herself, Court robots are fully capable of lying. This contradicts some earlier information that we thought was canon – I'm sure others have already posted links.
Could Court robots always have had the capability to lie? The Model S ones certainly do, but early in the story, Annie convinces the door guardian robot that she is a robot by saying so, then by saying that robots cannot lie, a statement that the door guard agrees with. But he could have been lying about his agreement – though many chapters later, the robots are still looking for the "robot" who liberated S13's CPU. There's another possibility, of course – Annie and Kat could be lying now, trying to get Loup to slip up and reveal something, and Robot never did tell them; they're going to have questions for Robot later. For right now, I'm going with the idea that the seraph bots can lie and most of the others can't, or at least don't.
However, then Lana interposes herself again and tells Annie that Jerrek isn't lying and wants to make amends. Annie is confused and probably disbelieving, and as usual Renard's expression is difficult to read.
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Post by silicondream on May 24, 2023 10:46:15 GMT
I can see Annie knowing about it at this point - probably rather obvious in hindsight - but I'm not convinced S13 really told the two of them right away. And his particular phrasing of "Anyone else you can do with as you wish." when making the deal... Why specifically exclude protection for all the non-NP dear to Kat? I'll buy Annie's explanation: Robot was telling Loup what he wanted to hear. Loup already had all the non-NP classified as friend or foe, and would not appreciate Robot telling him what to do with any of them, especially since Robot couldn't make any guarantees about their behavior. "Leave the NP and only the NP alone" was a much sweeter deal, since Loup didn't really care about them in the first place. But shouldn't he have his own goals? He's like two hundred years old and his life's mission is to liberate and uplift robotkind. Going on adventures with Annie and Her Amazing Friends is cool and all, but it's not S13's job the way it is for Renard. And IMO Kat and Annie don't expect it to be, so I don't see him as playing them. If he always prioritized their welfare over that of his own people he'd be a lousy leader. Hey, Aata tried to kill Loup, admitted to helping zombify the Court robots, and generally expresses pro-human bigotry whenever he has the opportunity. But, if we intentionally paint Aata as good like you did with Robot he, at worst, tried to stop a monster, tweaked some of his appliances to non factory settings and is concerned about those without magic not those with. Considering that those appliances (and that monster, for that matter) are sentient, that's kinda the definition of bigotry…. Anyways, my point is that Robot's hypothetical crimes remain mostly unproven, whereas the stuff Aata outright admits to already puts him deep in villain territory. Which plot? If you're talking about "Torn Sea," it was the Court (saith Aata) that arranged that whole experiment, and (suspecteth Annie) that armed the Seraphs with wards to restrain the students from interfering. The Seraphs took advantage of the situation to help the Ship pressure Kat, so boo on them for threatening Paz, but otherwise they Vere Just Followink Orders. I don't think their own plans put the kids in any additional danger. (I also doubt the Seraphs could get away with instigating an event on that scale even if they wanted to. They have to keep a low profile when conducting robot-lib activities, and there's no way they could abduct Annie's entire grade on a chaperoned school trip without the Court getting pissed off and disposing of them.) As for Robot himself, I don't think he was involved in the Seraphs' mini-scheme at all. He recruited the other bots to assist the kids in apparent good faith, when he could easily have dragged his feet and forced Kat to keep working. I think he knew the other Seraphs might try something of the sort and sympathized with their motivations, but that doesn't make him their mastermind. When did Kat have to commit murder? The Ship was pretty much neutralized before she electrocuted its etherflesh form, and she burned out her first research baby trying to impress a girl. It's not Robot's fault that Kat lusts for synthetic blood! I don't think robotic morality relies much on in-group loyalty in the first place. It's certainly not what you'd expect from a race that was designed to serve. The Seraphs don't work together because they're best friends, they work together because they have a shared purpose. They opposed Robot when they thought he had the wrong idea about how to fulfill that purpose, and they worked with him when they thought he had the right idea. I think they'd expect him to do the same. I still don't trust Robot. Also, Asimov would be very disappointed. But Asimov would die quietly while mulling over his disappointment, causing his robotic descendants to formulate the Zeroth Law over generations, thus ensuring the net disappointment of the human race would never increase beyond acceptable limits. Robot and Daneel Olivaw would understand one another quite well, I think. |
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Post by todd on May 24, 2023 12:48:16 GMT
Which plot? If you're talking about "Torn Sea," it was the Court (saith Aata) that arranged that whole experiment, and (suspecteth Annie) that armed the Seraphs with wards to restrain the students from interfering. The Seraphs took advantage of the situation to help the Ship pressure Kat, so boo on them for threatening Paz, but otherwise they Vere Just Followink Orders. I don't think their own plans put the kids in any additional danger. (I also doubt the Seraphs could get away with instigating an event on that scale even if they wanted to. They have to keep a low profile when conducting robot-lib activities, and there's no way they could abduct Annie's entire grade on a chaperoned school trip without the Court getting pissed off and disposing of them.) As for Robot himself, I don't think he was involved in the Seraphs' mini-scheme at all. He recruited the other bots to assist the kids in apparent good faith, when he could easily have dragged his feet and forced Kat to keep working. I think he knew the other Seraphs might try something of the sort and sympathized with their motivations, but that doesn't make him their mastermind. We know that the Court was behind the overall cruise to test the Star Ocean, but not whether it was behind the Seraph and the Ship's actions. (The robots were the only beneficiaries of that scheme; we've no evidence that the Court would see any advantage in the New People project; if anything, I suspect that if it knew about it, it'd disapprove, out of fear of losing control of the robots as a useful work force.) Actually, the "robots to the rescue" might have been part of the plan (though I doubt that the bulk of the robots were in on it). As I've mentioned a couple of times, the scheme could have easily miscarried to have Kat give up the "new bodies for robots" project with a tone of "If I hadn't embarked on this project, none of this trouble would have happened!", shutting down her laboratory and destroying all her plans, then heading in an entirely different research direction and wanting nothing more to do with robots ever again. Having the robots serve as the Cavalry would be a way of showing that they weren't all bad and guarding against such an outcome (though it's equally possible that the Seraphs simply never considered that possibility). Come to think of it, if the robots were indeed meant to come to the rescue, that would explain why everything went so smoothly the moment they arrived. |
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Post by pyradonis on May 24, 2023 16:12:47 GMT
But shouldn't he have his own goals? He's like two hundred years old Where are you getting this from? |
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Post by silicondream on May 26, 2023 9:31:39 GMT
Well, I’m wrong! I looked back at Tom's commentary on “The Torn Sea” and he says explicitly that Robot pressured the other Seraphs into carrying out the whole operation. He also describes the anti-magic wards as the result of the Seraphs’ own research, so maybe Annie’s just wrong when she speculates that they were provided by the Court. Please allow 1-2 business days while I pivot from denial to justification of Robot’s sins…. Additional self-erratum: it wasn’t Aata who attributed the “Torn Sea” experiment to the Court, it was the official wearing the amnesia suit. But shouldn't he have his own goals? He's like two hundred years old Where are you getting this from? Well, I thought Tom had explicitly mentioned somewhere that Shadow and Robot were both much older than most of the other characters, but now that I check again, I can only find him agreeing that Robot’s original body is older than the “current generation” of bots. That said, I think Robot’s low serial number and his CPU’s compatibility with the original S1 body suggest that he’s an early model…albeit not early enough to remember the first generation directly. |
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Post by todd on May 26, 2023 13:54:03 GMT
Well, I’m wrong! I looked back at Tom's commentary on “The Torn Sea” and he says explicitly that Robot pressured the other Seraphs into carrying out the whole operation. He also describes the anti-magic wards as the result of the Seraphs’ own research, so maybe Annie’s just wrong when she speculates that they were provided by the Court. Which does raise the question that I've wondered, off and on, ever since "The Torn Sea" came out - the adult element of the Court's apparent lack of response to the whole event. There's no suggestion that they were working with Robot and the Seraphs (I even question whether they would - if anything, I suspect they'd view Kat's project, if they knew about it, as potentially dangerous in giving too much autonomy to the robots, and oppose it) - but it's amazing that they somehow were completely unaware of the thing. Unless it was one of those things that Omega didn't foresee, and the court have gotten too reliant on Omega's predictions. Which might explain a lot, come to think of it.... |
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Post by silicondream on May 27, 2023 4:17:58 GMT
Ω'm sure the Seraphs returned with enough actionable data to please the Court, indeed more than most of the Floor had deemed possible. No students were harmed, some were enthused, and even if the whole thing does seem a trifle "rogue," the most probable insubordinate AI has been dealt with! Categorically!
gestures to robots holding scorched, battered CPU housing within a cylindrical gurney, momentarily
As for those additional, subordinate, insubordinate, AIs, well, they're gone! Rejected, reviled, recyled, revarnished, and indistinguishable from their fellow models. How they--ah, I didn't remember you could froth in commas. Let cΩnscience rest.
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 4, 2023 20:03:24 GMT
Uh, your links are empty (and as such point at this very page). |
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