knowit
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Post by knowit on Jan 17, 2023 3:01:24 GMT
I think a bit of nuance in this page is the pair's complete lack of any; Jack especially seems like he would know Zimmy can see connections that are real but abstract, for instance. Like, it would be one thing to be cautious or even distrustful of Annie in this scene, but going full on accusatory right out the gate, like they completely believe that Annie betrayed them without any confusion or doubt on their part as all is what seems off more then anything. It's a complete and immediate 180 to how willing they were to trust her before hand when you'd expect maybe a 120 at most.
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Post by jda on Jan 17, 2023 4:44:16 GMT
100 quatloos on J&J either being heavily influenced by something, or not being real at all. 200 shenanicoins say Zimmy just pulled them all on (another) self-flagellation drama. |
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Post by aline on Jan 17, 2023 7:54:30 GMT
They both helped Annie, so even if it was all unintentional they both participated in endangering Zimmy, potentially even getting her killed some time in the future. Emotions are high, Jack is probably still lowkey in love with Zimmy and Annie isn't especially close to either of them. It isn't absurd they would overreact and blame Annie in those circumstances. When people fuck up as a group and start freaking out, things like this happen. If they take the time to think about this calmly they'll probably realize Annie didn't intend to do harm, but right now they're not calm. They're afraid that their friend will die because they decided to trust Annie.
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Post by saardvark on Jan 17, 2023 14:39:34 GMT
As possible evidence of Zimmy influence, note that in panel 6, Jack is starting to get the gray shadows around his eyes, just like when he is under the influence of having been in Zimmingham, and/or affected by Zimmy or spiders from the depths of Zimm space, e.g., www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=702 or www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=737 |
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Post by mordekai on Jan 17, 2023 18:00:41 GMT
This is stupid. Jenny picked the spell and the location... why would they think Annie prepared this? Why are they asking her "what did you think would happen...?" Hey! What did YOU think would happen! That was your own damn idea and your own damn spell!
Maybe Jenny is working for the Court and she's trying to deflect suspicions away by accusing Annie? But what about Jack? He isn't making sense either... is he Court's pawn too...? |
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Post by maxptc on Jan 17, 2023 23:02:08 GMT
This is stupid. Jenny picked the spell and the location... why would they think Annie prepared this? Why are they asking her "what did you think would happen...?" Hey! What did YOU think would happen! That was your own damn idea and your own damn spell!
Maybe Jenny is working for the Court and she's trying to deflect suspicions away by accusing Annie? But what about Jack? He isn't making sense either... is he Court's pawn too...? Annie picked the location of the meeting, Jenny suggested they move outside for privacy, but they are still in the same area Annie suggested. It's not really a stretch for them to think Annie is smart enough to know how whatever location spell this is works. Annie knows all sorts of mystical facts. I don't see why it's so unreasonable for them to think Annie could be intentionally tricking them, aside from us as readers knowing she isn't. Annie unknowingly being used by the Court and them mistaking that for intentional deception just doesn't seem all the crazy to me. Zimmy verse is always a possibility when Zimmy is involved, but Jack and Jenny being the Court agents doesn't make sense, they would have just found Zimmy for the Court. The three of them being used by the Court and not realizing it, with Jack and Jenny blaming Annie based on faulty assumptions seems like the safest bet to me, but we will see where this goes. Would explain why the Court went so open with the plan instead of keeping it hush hush, Annie was gonna look into it. |
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Post by stanlowno4 on Jan 18, 2023 1:53:50 GMT
Made an account just to say what I spotted. We see Jack and Jenny behind Antimony in panel 2 of page 87, yet in panel 3 we see a pair of legs covering in Zimmy's black tendrils and the next panel shows Jack stood pretty much where those legs were. That, coupled with the bizarre behaviour from the two in yesterday's strip leads me to think that it's all a Zimmillusion to try and get the 'truth' out of Antimony.
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Post by Eversist on Jan 18, 2023 5:55:23 GMT
As possible evidence of Zimmy influence, note that in panel 6, Jack is starting to get the gray shadows around his eyes, just like when he is under the influence of having been in Zimmingham, and/or affected by Zimmy or spiders from the depths of Zimm space, e.g., www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=702 or www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=737Eh, Jack's had lines around his eyes the whole chapter. Seems to me just a way to introduce detail to the face (which also helps convey aging). I'm not against the overall theory, though. -- While I agree the about-face is jarring, they don't really know much about Kat and such, so maybe they are really genuinely suspicious... (although I'm still leaning towards possible Zimmy-influence with the rest of you). |
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Post by warrl on Jan 18, 2023 6:11:32 GMT
Let me get this straight now...
Annie asked for help locating Zimmy,
Jenny has a spell that - I quote her - "could find her location."
Jenny and Jack agreed to casting this spell.
Jenny picked where to cast the spell. They knew they were near the star ocean.
Jenny's spell, instead of locating Zimmy, summoned her.
And the possible consequences of this are somehow Annie's fault.
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Post by rafk on Jan 18, 2023 6:47:37 GMT
What is this some switcheroo? Ain't no reason for these two to be acting like weird jerks. It does seem weird. They chose where and how to contact Zimmy too, not Annie. However all things involving Zimmy should not be taken at face value considering the identity switcheroo going on in the strips dealing with the spider problem (among others) plus Jack is known to not be entirely rational where Zimmy is involved. And Zimmy's issue with Kat seems to be based on etheric visions or at least her interpretations of same... Could even be true, just nothing intentional on Kat's part. |
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Post by rafk on Jan 18, 2023 6:50:58 GMT
I'm starting to think Annie is Coyote now Real Annie arriving on the scene and revealing this "Annie" as Loup would be a great swerve although it has too many logic holes to be what's going on. |
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Post by dortieroo on Jan 18, 2023 22:10:05 GMT
The problem I have with Jenny assuming Annie would know enough about how the spell would work to just trust that casting it by the sea would be fine is that it just doesn't make logical sense to me.
Even if Jenny assumed Annie knew in full what the spell entailed and the risks of casting it so close to the ocean, why wouldn't their genuine concern for Zimmy not at least make her ask about that? Like, hey I know I picked this spot but are you *sure* doing this here is a good idea? We all make assumptions about what the people around us do or don't know based on what we know about them / the situation at hand, but if doing something like this could potentially put Zimmy's life at risk, why even take that chance? If she knowingly used it in a dangerous place, at least part of the blame is hers no matter how you slice it. Annie didn't force her hand, and they aren't incapable of just going somewhere else that's further from the ocean if this was meant to be a concern in the first place. At no point does Jenny seem even slightly worried something could go wrong until it does.
To add a further sticking point in that, Annie seems generally unaware of what Jenny's capable of doing or how her magic can find Zimmy. She's asking questions when they meet in the diner like Jenny using a spell to do it wasn't what she was expecting, and even asks how they're going to be doing it before they leave. If I were in Jenny's shoes, I just wouldn't assume Annie knew at all what I'd be doing, much less what locations posed a hazard to what she probably assumed was just magic GPS from how it was described to her previously. Granted, I know a lot of things Jenny isn't privy to as someone just reading, but it still doesn't click for me.
This is a lot of words on a really minor point but this whole chapter is just baffling me, haha. Maybe it's really just as simple as they're both worked up and worried about potentially being used so they're just jumping to the worst conclusions they can think of. I don't think them being suspicious is at all unreasonable, but this accusation just doesn't fly for me.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 19, 2023 2:46:05 GMT
Even if Jenny assumed Annie knew in full what the spell entailed and the risks of casting it so close to the ocean, why wouldn't their genuine concern for Zimmy not at least make her ask about that? Like, hey I know I picked this spot but are you *sure* doing this here is a good idea? We all make assumptions about what the people around us do or don't know based on what we know about them / the situation at hand, but if doing something like this could potentially put Zimmy's life at risk, why even take that chance? If she knowingly used it in a dangerous place, at least part of the blame is hers no matter how you slice it. Annie didn't force her hand, and they aren't incapable of just going somewhere else that's further from the ocean if this was meant to be a concern in the first place. At no point does Jenny seem even slightly worried something could go wrong until it does. Jenny didn't assume any of that until the accusation from Zimmy. She didnt think the spot would be an issue. She didnt think Annie could be using her. She didn't think the spell would be dangerous or a risk. Up until then, Jack and Jenny didn't have any real suspicions of Annie or her motives. They just don't have our knowledge that Annie is always the good person, so when an accusation came they reacted without instantly analyzing things and Annie perfectly. Which is exactly what Jenny assumed until the accusation. That's when the "did I just get duped" brain kicked in. Was it all an act and did Annie just use me? What does she know that I don't? Should I react before I think things through? Yes to all these, even the second question where yes isn't a logical answer. To be fair, its only been a few seconds for them. We get a lot more "think things through logically and fully" time. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 19, 2023 15:20:43 GMT
Then why help her at all with no strings attached or vetting? Why agree that Zimmy needs to be found? They knew how dangerous it is to even try and contact Zimmy, they literally tell her she doesn't want to be found and they shouldn't do it lightly, and Jack agrees with her that they're out of other options. Jenny is also the one who leads them to the ritual place and they acknowledge at the beginning that this is close to the star ocean, but only call it a fucked up idea after the spell ends after Zimmy panics that Annie has betrayed her, as if someone implanted the idea.
It's for sure some Zimmy-induced fuckery altering reality, possibly so Annie loses access to the easiest way to contact her. The other option is "Jack and Jenny are utter morons". Tom's handling of this sort of nuanced conflict with Anthony and Red was clumsy as hell, but it wasn't THIS clumsy.
Having reasons to doubt Annie doesn't mean that Jack firsts instinct should have been "i cant trust her". Just means that after hearing what he heard, it's reasonable for him to think he and Jenny could have been used, and that the location being part of that set up is possible. He didn't have enough reason to refuse to help all together, heck at the start of the interaction he clearly trusted Annie despite having reasons that would make not trusting her reasonable. I disagree with the idea that anyone in comic who dislikes or doesn't trust Annie is an idiot, but I understand it. I just don't think Jack or Jenny or Red did anything unreasonable from there perspective. After hearing what he heard, you say... But, honestly, all Jack and Jenny heard was Zimmy suddenly putting out accusations without any kind of proof, which they immediately believed. Why? They know Zimmy is not omniscient, says lots of things that shouldn't be taken at face value, and is generally surrounded by horror visions 23/7. |
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Post by maxptc on Jan 19, 2023 17:13:24 GMT
Having reasons to doubt Annie doesn't mean that Jack firsts instinct should have been "i cant trust her". Just means that after hearing what he heard, it's reasonable for him to think he and Jenny could have been used, and that the location being part of that set up is possible. He didn't have enough reason to refuse to help all together, heck at the start of the interaction he clearly trusted Annie despite having reasons that would make not trusting her reasonable. I disagree with the idea that anyone in comic who dislikes or doesn't trust Annie is an idiot, but I understand it. I just don't think Jack or Jenny or Red did anything unreasonable from there perspective. After hearing what he heard, you say... But, honestly, all Jack and Jenny heard was Zimmy suddenly putting out accusations without any kind of proof, which they immediately believed. Why? They know Zimmy is not omniscient, says lots of things that shouldn't be taken at face value, and is generally surrounded by horror visions 23/7. I mean, they both kind of have an obsession with Zimmy. Again, I'm not saying it's logical thinking that they take Zimmy at face value when she makes an accusation, just that it is a realistic in the moment response to an accusation, particularly such a serious one. I don't think them automatically dismissing what Zimmy says because of the nature of her condition makes sense, or at least it doesnt make anymore sense then them mistrusting Annie. Maybe after some reflection sure, but in the moment? Why would they? I dont think Zimmy is lying about what is going to happen, she is just wrong about Annie being on the Court's side. Also, unlike Annie, Zimmy hasn't intentionally mislead either of them previously. She did Jack pretty dirty, so him thinking Annie is deceiving him again seems like it would trump the "Zimmy must be wrong" impluse. Honestly them not being suspicious of Annie in the moment would have been more odd in my opinion. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 20, 2023 12:34:47 GMT
I mean, they both kind of have an obsession with Zimmy. Jack yes, but Jenny? |
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Post by maxptc on Jan 20, 2023 15:01:01 GMT
I mean, they both kind of have an obsession with Zimmy. Jack yes, but Jenny? Yes. I thought it was obvious, but maybe its just my read. Look at how Jenny talked about Zimmy earlier this chapter (well all this chapter), and the fact that she's with Jack. They seem to like theorizing and discussing Zimmy and her effects on Jack/the world/how important Zimmy is in general. Lots of people end up sharing a partners hobbies enthusiastically, and Jenny seems like she's in pretty deep. Oh, also I suspect she use to dress as Goth as she did for multiple reasons, with "I wanna look like the horror show girl Jack mentioned" being one of them. But that one is just speculation. |
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Post by drmemory on Jan 21, 2023 5:05:16 GMT
Aside from the behavior, which I agree is so out-of-character that they may well be in a Zimmy scenario... why would Jenny care so much about helping Zimmy anyway? If they are in a Zimmy illusion I have to think it didn't start until at least the point when Jenny cast her spell. She said it was a spell to locate Zimmy precisely, but that isn't what happened really - we didn't get a tracking arrow or anything like that, it went dark and Zimmy and Gamma showed up.
Jack is the one who was obsessed with Zimmy. Jenny asked Jack out, and they are clearly still talking and probably friends now if not still dating, but we've seen no reason at all why Jenny would be so interested in Zimmy's well-being and such. Aside from the possible illusion, I feel like we also missed some important plot development there.
If this is a version of Zimmyland, it's pretty different than we've seen in the past - she usually takes people to a version of her old city, not outdoors. Then again, we've never seen her swallowed up by black goo during the course of a conversation, so who knows what's really going on here.
Also, Zimmy's illusions are often sorta like puppet shows in a sense. We can't assume that everyone we are seeing is there or is really who they appear to be. Remember that one time Zimmy forgot who she was? Good times, good times!
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Post by drmemory on Jan 23, 2023 4:26:46 GMT
Just reviewed this chapter real quick.
1. I still think Jenny is a waitress and they went to her coffee shop.  Not really important to the plot, just interesting.
2. Jenny is an actual witch now, no longer an apprentice. At least she implies it pretty strongly here.
3. Jenny says she can cast a spell to locate Zimmy precisely. As I pointed out previously, that isn't what the spell did.
4. Same page, Jenny says "Let's find somewhere a little less public", and stands up, implying she will lead the way to somewhere like that.
5. Next page, Jenny (still in the lead) says "This'll do", while standing on a cliff over the Star Ocean. She then starts positioning people for the spell.
6. Jenny does something that makes it appear that blood is falling from the sky and wiggles her fingers. Zimmy appears. That is where everything starts going wonky - that page. Before that, it all seems rational, with people acting like themselves.
One more observation - while they were in Jennyland (as distinct from Zimmyland), were they really still near the Star Ocean? Or in a pocket reality or mindscape, like those Zimmy manifests? Or was this indeed one of Zimmy's? I could believe that because of what happens next but it isn't certain.
I still find that black stuff crawling over Zimmy and Gamma to be rather creepy. Stuff has to be pretty creepy to draw attention away from the general creepiness of Zimmy. Maybe it's part of Jenny's spell? The "damn light" comment makes it seem like they are indeed near the Star Ocean but the oozing black stuff makes it seem like they were pulled there involuntarily. Not just located. It's all over Zimmy and Gamma until they leave (or are released?).
The one thing that stands out to me after this re-read is that I no longer trust Jenny. If this isn't a Zimmy scenario playing out, then it's because of whatever Jenny is up to.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 23, 2023 6:47:43 GMT
2. Jenny is an actual witch now, no longer an apprentice. At least she implies it pretty strongly here. I agree that is the impression that Jenny wanted to give Antimony. Her wording made my antenna twitch a little on first read but because there is an easy and innocent potential explanation I didn't think too much about it at the time. Jenny says she isn't exactly still learning, she has learned everything she can here and isn't an apprentice anymore. She also doesn't say she's a full-fledged witch. Maybe that just means her apprenticeship has ended early because the Court is closing up shop. The nephew of a friend of mine quasi-graduated high school during lockdown; everyone in his class was just waived through despite not completing the last three months and for that dude it was a godsend because he was not doing well, academically-speaking. Graduating under those circumstances isn't really something to brag about. It's also possible that there's some sort of final ceremony or internship after the apprenticeship ends but before she's a practicing witch, and she's not supposed to talk about witch-stuff too much with non-witches (not that Antimony asked or appeared even slightly curious). Revisiting this issue after the last few pages of the chapter, I have to add them to the list of stuff Jenny's said that is dodgy. The way Antimony phrased the question, I suppose to gauge the potential reliability of this proposed spell, is, "Are you still learning to be a witch?" What strikes me as funny is that even if Jenny was a full-fledged witch she'd still be a young one and should still have a bunch of things to figure out, so a "yes" followed by a few fast words of explanation would be expected. If she was still an apprentice then just "yes" would do, though Antimony would probably want a bit more reassurance about how well Jenny knew the spell or how easy it would be, or whatever. However, the one thing Jenny made very clear is that she isn't an apprentice any more and the "learned everything I can here" suggests she isn't likely to be one here in the future either. Why would Jenny make it so clear that she wasn't an apprentice but be vague about the rest of her situation with regard to the witching profession? If she didn't complete her apprenticeship but doesn't want Antimony to know for whatever reason, why not lie about it or just omit it? It occurs to me that misrepresenting herself as either a witch or an apprentice witch when she wasn't one could be a serious faux paus... both with witches in general and her former mistress (or coven-leader, or warlock, or however they choose to identify) in particular. There may be some etheric contract or other mechanism involved where they'd know. Witches may be generally secretive but I don't think that Jenny would be forbidden from saying that she'd graduated or was about to graduate with someone who already knew she was a witch... and I don't think she wouldn't want to say her apprenticeship had been ended early or interrupted if things had concluded amicably. That makes me think maybe they didn't. If that's the case it doesn't necessarily mean anything relevant to the story. There are many reasons that an apprenticeship could end early, including personality clashes, other commitments, finances, even vacation plans. It's also not necessarily Antimony's business, and I think Antimony didn't inquire because she didn't really care as long as she got what she needed (though maybe she should). Of course, Jenny then goes on to say some other stuff that seems... inaccurate. I think it's insufficient evidence to say that Jenny has a hidden agenda, as she might have just chosen the spot a little carelessly and then decided to make sure any blame for that was firmly affixed to Antimony, but it's not impossible. God-tier powers are on the table. That's a big temptation. |
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Not really important to the plot, just interesting.