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Post by drmemory on Oct 10, 2022 19:21:54 GMT
Sorry for the multiple posts. I've noticed that if I put too much stuff, especially different topics, in one, they either get ignored or skimmed. Which is fair!
Anyway. The centerpiece of the Treatise is Annie and Kat. A couple of observations...
Kat's sigil is that of the Creator. Makes sense. Annie's sigil is Afterlife Guide! Is that really her main thing now? Huh.
Obviously, Renard loves her at this point. Not just lust and obsession as he had for Surma. Awwww...
Lots of fire and the sun in Annie's part, including on Renard, her companion and familiar. More of a nature goddess than anything, despite the fire heritage.
Kat's part, of course, is moon-themed, which is normal for her. The interesting this is this - is her companion her computer? Or maybe all computers? Paz being shown single, looking out over the ocean, is consistent with this idea as well. She IS sort of a techno-goddess and really looks the part here.
And, of course, the Bismuth sigil is in the center of it all. Annie and Kat are clearly central to the future of the court and the forest both. Now that we know that the very trees and dirt, as well as the buildings, are all made of Bismuthium (Bismuthite?) we can see how interwoven their fates must be.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 11, 2022 0:20:18 GMT
Singles and Couples: I don't think most of the Treatise sides tell a story, like the top and bottom rows. Just my opinion. Still, there is information there, and maybe some hints about the future. We have several singles - people who end up alone? Shadow 2, Idra, Paz, Eglamore, and Tony. Most (all?) have hints about their personalities. Some obvious, some not (such as Shadow 2's toga - or is it a shroud?). We have several couples. Zimmy and Gamma, Shell and Aata, Parley and Smitty. The singles and couples seem to be pretty much on the correct sides - the left is the forest, the right the court. Except... are they? Shadow 2 grew up in the court, supposedly, and Zimmy and Gamma don't really belong in the forest, surely? The animals and the family of elves on the forest side certainly seem right, but those seem... odd. perhaps is more the ether side and the Court/science-ruled side? possibly explainable exceptions: Aata is on the Court side despite having etheric powers rather by choice, the arrow is powerfully etheric, but warped by the Court (Diego) for their own purposes.... they owned it, and controlled it (and now Kat does). Zimms and Gamms are of the Court, but outcasts there and predominantly etheric in nature. Eggs and Parley have etheric tattoos, and Parley and Smitts have some etheric abilities, but are Court by choice and orientation. The star ocean is etheric, but again, like the arrow, Court manufactured and owned. |
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Post by Runningflame on Oct 11, 2022 0:31:03 GMT
The first thing I thought of when I saw the layout was the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. It's not a perfect match (either in shape or in thematic arrangement), but I'm quite sure it's an inspiration. |
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Post by saardvark on Oct 11, 2022 0:44:40 GMT
Some random thoughts:
With Kat being "Court/science" and Annie being Forest/etheric, the two sides plus Kat or Annie make kind of a blocky Yin-Yang symbol.
A meeting/joining together (and detente? peace? even alliance?) of Forest and Court is played out from right (Forest) and left (Court) along the bottom.
Forest god Loup = fusion of Coyote and Ys (lower left) meets the Court part way by incarnating as NP Jerrek (lower center) and falling in love with ....
NP Lana (lower center) who loves him back. She arises from robots (lower right) fused with the Angel's (Kat's) biotech through an etheric catalyst (arrow transfer device, just above)
with an assist from S13 (in Angel form, also figuratively representing Kat's "Angel", lower right).
At the top (less certain of this...) you've got the etheric realm (top left - there was an earlier representation of Kat breaking into these "celestial [etheric] spheres")
and at top right you have the Court's scientific application this ether realm, turning it into or using it as the star ocean transport medium to a new world (which I'm presuming is
represented at top center)... so again, the Forest/ether and Court/science sort of working together (though its more the Court *using* the ether) to achieve a goal.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 11, 2022 0:48:58 GMT
Kat and Annie are often associated with the Moon and the Sun. Has there ever been a discussion about whether Annie leaving her fingerprint on the moon has any significance?  It has probably been thunk by someone before, but it could just be a metaphor for the strong influence Annie has on Kat - she has "left her mark" so to speak! The Norns attest to Annie's significance to Kat's trajectory.... |
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Post by warrl on Oct 11, 2022 1:58:43 GMT
The singles and couples seem to be pretty much on the correct sides - the left is the forest, the right the court. Except... are they? Shadow 2 grew up in the court, supposedly, and Zimmy and Gamma don't really belong in the forest, surely? The animals and the family of elves on the forest side certainly seem right, but those seem... odd. With the non-etheric Court leadership deciding to take its football technology and techno-minions and go home off to another world (or so they claim), I think there'll be some realignment among those who stay behind. So maybe everyone is on the correct sides... |
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Post by blahzor on Oct 11, 2022 2:03:48 GMT
The singles and couples seem to be pretty much on the correct sides - the left is the forest, the right the court. Except... are they? Shadow 2 grew up in the court, supposedly, and Zimmy and Gamma don't really belong in the forest, surely? The animals and the family of elves on the forest side certainly seem right, but those seem... odd. With the non-etheric Court leadership deciding to take its football technology and techno-minions and go home off to another world (or so they claim), I think there'll be some realignment among those who stay behind. So maybe everyone is on the correct sides... If the oppressor Court people are gone the sides are more blurred. Maybe this Lana thing changes Loup if he survives. If he doesn't and before whatever Coyote planned afterwards people go back to the forest to try and rebuild and this is the new power structure |
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 11, 2022 11:51:09 GMT
Kat's sigil is that of the Creator. Makes sense. Annie's sigil is Afterlife Guide! Is that really her main thing now? Huh. I think the "crown" stands for the fire spirit. When she transformed into the fire elemental form and tried to attack Loup, he stopped her which was symbolized by him holding the "crown". He also looked at it when speaking of "this side of you".
Which leaves the question which one is the Afterlife Guide sigil then. Going by process of elimination it would then be the Antimony symbol. (The Gillitie symbol is obvious.) There is precedent for this, considering the alchemical symbol for Lead also stands for the role of Protector of the Court. |
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Post by therationaldove on Oct 11, 2022 12:50:24 GMT
Beautiful! But I'm left wondering: where's Jones? She's been in some of the other Treatises. Maybe because she didn't feature much in this volume? (But she might have featured more than Shadow has) We last saw Jones here on the last page of the Mind Cage chapter. Compare that to Shadow 2, who hasn't been seen since New Contract back in Volume 8. I suspect his inclusion in this treatise is hinting to future events rather than referencing past ones and the fact that he is positioned opposite to Paz has some implications regarding his relationship with Robot. I hope we see him again soon. The longer we go without seeing Shadow, the more I worry for the guy. Jones' exclusion is very interesting to me, though. It also reminds me that we don't know what Jones thinks about this whole "hopping to a new planet" plan. Did she know about it? Was she kept in the dark? Will she be invited to travel to this new world? Moving further outwards to the right, past the robots and golems, we have S13 in his angelic form. In parallel to Coyote. I find this disturbing but appropriate. Finally, moving upwards, we have the artifacts of power. Above Coyote, we have his tooth. Above Robot, we have the arrow. Scary! Yeah this treatise is definitely implying that Robot will continue down a darker path. We've already seen that he is willing to help a creature like Loup, so who knows what other shenanigans he will get up to. We still don't really know what his end goal is other than helping Kat's work, but to what end? Who knows. And him being positioned close to Diego's arrow is indeed very scary. The first thing I thought of when I saw the layout was the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. It's not a perfect match (either in shape or in thematic arrangement), but I'm quite sure it's an inspiration. I didn't think about the Sistine Chapel, but you might be on to something. The triangular shapes of the panels make more sense if you think of the layout as a ceiling.
I'm also wondering if there is any significance to the fact that the tooth and the arrow are oriented towards Annie. If there is, then that's also pretty ominous. Especially the arrow, since that's a weapon that we have been assured is definitely, totally in good hands, we promise.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 11, 2022 14:53:05 GMT
Kat's sigil is that of the Creator. Makes sense. Annie's sigil is Afterlife Guide! Is that really her main thing now? Huh. I think the "crown" stands for the fire spirit. When she transformed into the fire elemental form and tried to attack Loup, he stopped her which was symbolized by him holding the "crown". He also looked at it when speaking of "this side of you".
Which leaves the question which one is the Afterlife Guide sigil then. Going by process of elimination it would then be the Antimony symbol. (The Gillitie symbol is obvious.) There is precedent for this, considering the alchemical symbol for Lead also stands for the role of Protector of the Court. and conveniently the central stem of the antimony symbol is a stretched ankh (as if you pulled down on the ankh crosslet and stretched out a stem). The ankh is of course a symbol for (eternal) life in ancient Egypt, associated with Osiris (lord of death and the underworld), etc.... and so perfect for an afterlife guide. |
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Post by hnau on Oct 11, 2022 19:55:50 GMT
Kat and Annie are often associated with the Moon and the Sun. Has there ever been a discussion about whether Annie leaving her fingerprint on the moon has any significance? It has probably been thunk by someone before, but it could just be a metaphor for the strong influence Annie has on Kat - she has "left her mark" so to speak! The Norns attest to Annie's significance to Kat's trajectory.... It also proves that celestial bodies can be reached through etheric means, so it could be foreshadowing for the Star Ocean, or any future connections to the New Court. |
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Post by drmemory on Oct 12, 2022 3:55:56 GMT
I think the "crown" stands for the fire spirit. When she transformed into the fire elemental form and tried to attack Loup, he stopped her which was symbolized by him holding the "crown". He also looked at it when speaking of "this side of you".
Which leaves the question which one is the Afterlife Guide sigil then. Going by process of elimination it would then be the Antimony symbol. (The Gillitie symbol is obvious.) There is precedent for this, considering the alchemical symbol for Lead also stands for the role of Protector of the Court. and conveniently the central stem of the antimony symbol is a stretched ankh (as if you pulled down on the ankh crosslet and stretched out a stem). The ankh is of course a symbol for (eternal) life in ancient Egypt, associated with Osiris (lord of death and the underworld), etc.... and so perfect for an afterlife guide. I've always believed the Antimony symbol on that page was her personal symbol. Renard basically has it branded on him, as we first saw in the science fair hall, and the RoTD guy only names two roles - Gilitee Medium and Afterlife Guide. You can go all the way back here to see that is her personal symbol. Her mother also gave her a necklace with the same symbol. The crown was added later, as was her role as a guide. I just don't believe Surma sold her to the guides at birth, nor that her name means "Afterlife Guide".
Obviously I have no proof, any more than you do, but the use of that symbol has been consistent and we have always seen it associated with Antimony, since before she became a medium or promised to one day be a guide. Surely her heritage is as a descendant of a line of fire elementals, rather than as one doomed to be a guide when her mother was not! Her very NAME is Antimony, and her mother gave her a necklace with the symbol of Antimony. To assume Antimony is the symbol of the guides, you have to assume a very different interpretation of Surma's feelings about Annie. Not a positive one, and one I just can't believe.
The guides, on the other hand, are selfish and tried to suck her into their MLM scheme as early as the hospital, and basically forced her to take her mother into the light by not showing up. That's why she shows as having the role already in the RoTD, way before she agreed to do it. Or so I believe.
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Post by drmemory on Oct 12, 2022 4:53:39 GMT
Going waaaaaay back to page 33, those three symbols are pretty important to the chapter, and I believe all are shown pretty clearly therein. Explained, though only visually. The one on the left, which I believe is most commonly interpreted as Lead, is the symbol of the court protector, or at least Eglamore's symbol. We first see it on his tabard here, and we see it again later, in his office and such. I"m not sure if it is his symbol personally or that of the current protector but do not recall Parley showing it - but then she's a trainee. I'm sure if she has, someone will correct me. Quickly and vigorously, as that's how we roll here!
The one in the middle is, of course Antimony, Annie's actual name. We first see her necklace, gifted to her by her mother Surma, here. I'm going to be really disappointed if Surma sold her to the guides or something and even named her after the role! Seems unlikely...
The one on the right, which I suspect is to be Mercury, is Renard's symbol. We first see it here, when Renard attempts to kill Antimony and steal her body.
So those three symbols on the Chapter 3 title page are the sigils of the three main characters in that chapter - James, Antimony. and Renard. Kat is there too but isn't as important to this particular chapter - this is all about introducing us to Renard and Eglamore. Also, Kat isn't proclaimed "The Creator" until much later, by the Seraphs.
Once Renard becomes Annie's property, he takes on her symbol instead of his own. Zap! Later on, when Renard accepts his new role as Annie's familiar, he gets a new symbol - his own personal symbol merged with hers, as can be seen here. No, that isn't just a fancier Antimony - it is a physical sign of his change from "owned object" to "familiar".
For a nice little diagram showing the symbols of Kat, Renard and Annie, just before the new contract, see here. |
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Post by phrogge on Oct 12, 2022 6:20:50 GMT
I'm trying to compare Lana's hand to those in the Sistine ceiling... it's almost a blend, with god's straight purposeful arm ending in Adam's curved and languid hand, though the curve of Lana's is less, and far from limp. Or I'm just straining too hard to find significance.
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 12, 2022 9:46:27 GMT
and conveniently the central stem of the antimony symbol is a stretched ankh (as if you pulled down on the ankh crosslet and stretched out a stem). The ankh is of course a symbol for (eternal) life in ancient Egypt, associated with Osiris (lord of death and the underworld), etc.... and so perfect for an afterlife guide. I've always believed the Antimony symbol on that page was her personal symbol. Renard basically has it branded on him, as we first saw in the science fair hall, and the RoTD guy only names two roles - Gilitee Medium and Afterlife Guide. You can go all the way back here to see that is her personal symbol. Her mother also gave her a necklace with the same symbol. The crown was added later, as was her role as a guide. I just don't believe Surma sold her to the guides at birth, nor that her name means "Afterlife Guide".
Obviously I have no proof, any more than you do, but the use of that symbol has been consistent and we have always seen it associated with Antimony, since before she became a medium or promised to one day be a guide. Surely her heritage is as a descendant of a line of fire elementals, rather than as one doomed to be a guide when her mother was not! Her very NAME is Antimony, and her mother gave her a necklace with the symbol of Antimony. To assume Antimony is the symbol of the guides, you have to assume a very different interpretation of Surma's feelings about Annie. Not a positive one, and one I just can't believe.
The guides, on the other hand, are selfish and tried to suck her into their MLM scheme as early as the hospital, and basically forced her to take her mother into the light by not showing up. That's why she shows as having the role already in the RoTD, way before she agreed to do it. Or so I believe.
Hmm, fair enough. I still believe the crown-like symbol stands for the fire spirit though, due to the scene with Loup. |
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Post by Gemminie on Oct 12, 2022 16:12:30 GMT
OK, I'm going to post what I see in the treatise page, and only then will I read what other people have to say (my self-imposed rule). Before I get to the foreground, the background has sort of a gray-brown stone texture near the top, a greenish texture to the left, a purplish texture to the right, and just a black void at the bottom. The outer group of panels has 14 of them, with prominent curvilinear frames. Then there's a middle group of 10 panels that appear to be behind them, with straight frames. The central rectangle has two frames. Outer panels, clockwise from top: - What appears to be the star ocean
- A group of people, each a solid color, facing out of the panel toward the viewer
- Shell and Aata, with Aata sitting or kneeling, wearing an orange robe, and Shell standing behind him with one hand on her hip and the other on his shoulder, wearing an indigo dress, all in front of a cloudy background
- A cityscape
- Parley and Smitty, embracing, with Parley wrapped loosely in a chocolate-colored cloth and Smitty in more of a coffee-colored wrap, and these colors continue as the ground behind them, beneath a cloudy sky
- An angelic figure that looks like Robot's avatar from "She Gave Us an Ocean," kneeling on what appears to be a stony outcropping
- A group of the ancient robots, facing out of the panel toward the viewer
- Ysengrin, in wolf-tree form, in the forest, shown standing and facing to our left
- Coyote's head and neck, stretching down over what could be his body; the background is unclear
- A group of tree elves, facing out of the panel toward the viewer
- A forest landscape
- A number of wild animals, depicted in silhouette, arranged in rows and facing to the left and right
- Cvet, perched on what appears to be a building
- Fantastically depicted sun and stars, like what we've seen in other treatise pages and in the Ether
Middle panels, clockwise from top: - A view of the night sky, with two planets and an aurora visible
- Paz, wearing an indigo dress, sitting on a stone by the sea beneath a partly-cloudy sky
- James, facing forward toward the viewer, wearing a blue shirt, with both hands resting on the hilt of a sword in front of him; there is a purple cityscape behind him
- A figure (Tony?) with brown hair wearing a sepia tunic, apparently contemplating their upheld left hand, before a beige background; the image is crazed with cracks
- Diego's arrow, glowing green before a dark brown background
- Jerrek and Lana semi-embracing before a cloudy background; Jerrek wears a dark bluish-green tunic while Lana is in more of a sienna one
- Coyote's tooth/dagger, in front of a dark brown background
- Gamma, facing a dark doorway, but with her left hand up and looking back toward the viewer, as if guiding us
- Idra, in a taupe dress before a hazy indigo background, looking to our right, her left hand on her hip
- A shadow person, possibly Shadow 2, but very thin, with no eyes shown and wrapped in a white cloth before a hazy purple background
And the two center panels: - Annie, to the right of the frame and looking to the left, wearing a russet colored outfit and a necklace, both hands over her heart (right over left), in front of a forested background; the sky is blue, and the sun is in the upper left – Renard is behind Annie and to the left with his eyes closed, facing Annie, and Annie's hair turns to flames near the end; some of the flames appear to be beneath Renard
- Kat, to the right of the frame and looking to the left, wearing a coffee-colored laced-up tunic and a dark brown vest; she appears to have white sleeves beneath, as her right hand is held up, gesturing at some of her floating screens; the Mark of the Creator is visible in her hair, and the moon is in the sky in the upper left, shining down upon a background that looks like a collection of computers and technology
The alchemical symbols often found in treatise pages are here but quite muted; the bismuth symbol is in the very center, while four symbols adorn the central two-panel rectangle. Clockwise from top, they are a downward-pointing triangle, an upward-pointing triangle, a circle, and a crescent moon. Thus the fire and sun symbols are near Annie, while the water and moon symbols are near Kat.
There are some pairs of diametrically-opposite images in the outer group – the kneeling angel avatar and the perched Cvet seem to correspond, as do the forest and cityscape. The middle set of frames seems to have some left-right correspondences – James and Idra are opposite each other, as are Diego's arrow and Coyote's dagger.
Coyote assists Annie, while Kat is assisted by technology. The flames beneath Renard probably refer to the burning of his original body. I'm not sure why Renard's eyes are closed. The solar/lunar, fire/water symbolism around Annie and Kat we've seen before. The cracked image is almost certainly Tony, as we've seen him represented by "broken" imagery before, and there was an entire chapter about him in this volume. The Forest animals probably represent the creatures displaced by Loup's Forest wave and rescued by Annie. We haven't seen Paz a lot this volume, but when we saw her most she was talking with Kat by the sea. Although we didn't see the dagger this volume, it was mentioned, and although Diego's arrow was neither seen nor mentioned, it was visually referenced by the green-arrows snare that Kat made to try to catch Loup; she may have employed the arrow or its techniques in making it. The dagger and arrow seem likely to be important at some point.
The four pairs of corner frames are connected, and they seem to represent something that is combined in the story: Coyote and Ysengrin combined to form Loup; Robot and the ancient robots worked together to create the New People; the multicolored people could represent the people of the Court, working to create and use the star ocean; but then we have Cvet and the sky imagery. All Cvet really did in this volume was tell Jones some things about Annie and Tony.
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Post by Gemminie on Oct 12, 2022 16:14:26 GMT
Kat's sigil is that of the Creator. Makes sense. Annie's sigil is Afterlife Guide! Is that really her main thing now? Huh. I did not notice the Antimony Regulus crown in Annie's hair there! I don't know if that symbolizes Afterlife Guide. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 12, 2022 22:28:35 GMT
Obvious though I don't think anyone specifically mentioned it: This is the first treatise where Kat and Antimony are separated by a hard border. |
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Post by Runningflame on Oct 12, 2022 23:47:27 GMT
Annie appears to be wearing the necklace her mother gave her, which would mean that she has placed both her hands over the antimony-symbol pendant. Possibly a reference to her making peace with her mother's memory at the end of Find Yourself.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 13, 2022 0:47:47 GMT
and conveniently the central stem of the antimony symbol is a stretched ankh (as if you pulled down on the ankh crosslet and stretched out a stem). The ankh is of course a symbol for (eternal) life in ancient Egypt, associated with Osiris (lord of death and the underworld), etc.... and so perfect for an afterlife guide. I've always believed the Antimony symbol on that page was her personal symbol. Renard basically has it branded on him, as we first saw in the science fair hall, and the RoTD guy only names two roles - Gilitee Medium and Afterlife Guide. You can go all the way back here to see that is her personal symbol. Her mother also gave her a necklace with the same symbol. The crown was added later, as was her role as a guide. I just don't believe Surma sold her to the guides at birth, nor that her name means "Afterlife Guide".
Obviously I have no proof, any more than you do, but the use of that symbol has been consistent and we have always seen it associated with Antimony, since before she became a medium or promised to one day be a guide. Surely her heritage is as a descendant of a line of fire elementals, rather than as one doomed to be a guide when her mother was not! Her very NAME is Antimony, and her mother gave her a necklace with the symbol of Antimony. To assume Antimony is the symbol of the guides, you have to assume a very different interpretation of Surma's feelings about Annie. Not a positive one, and one I just can't believe.
The guides, on the other hand, are selfish and tried to suck her into their MLM scheme as early as the hospital, and basically forced her to take her mother into the light by not showing up. That's why she shows as having the role already in the RoTD, way before she agreed to do it. Or so I believe.
oh I totally agree, I think it *is* her personal symbol, definitely! I was just pointing out that an element in her symbol was ankh-like, which is nicely harmonious with the idea of an afterlife guide. Annie *is* sort of a natural at being a guide, having a built-in etheric nature, being ether attractive, knowing many of the guides, and already having some guide experience.... even if she doesnt really like the idea of doing it as a full time occupation. |
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Post by raindropstarship on Oct 13, 2022 23:06:15 GMT
Long time lurker, but I made an account finally because I saw detail on the treatise that I hadn’t seen discussed yet.
I happened to be lying down with my laptop close to my face when I saw the update, and I noticed that the nails on the corners of the foreground panels have alchemy symbols on them! But the resolution on my screen is low, so it’s hard to tell what they are. Also, I’m not an expert on alchemy so there are some symbols I don’t know. Maybe deciphering this could give deeper clues on how the panels are related?
For example, it looks like the bismuth symbol is on the back corners of the forest and city panels, which is interesting, but what is the M looking symbol?
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