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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 28, 2022 7:13:41 GMT
Is that what Coyote wanted? No ether sounded dire before, yes? |
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Post by philman on Sept 28, 2022 7:16:39 GMT
Coyote figured out a way to use Loup to do something to the Ocean/Omega project? Would the death of Loup overload it somehow? Destroying it? Or blow it open to allow Coyote to enter?
Would Jerek's New Person body then become a totem for Coyote to transition into the new world? With Loup being the sacrifice
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Post by flowsthead on Sept 28, 2022 7:17:22 GMT
Loup must carry or represent a large quantity of ether. Maybe if Loup does travel over there and dies he'll infect the place with ether much more quickly than the thousands of years the stories would take to do the same. Would be an incredible middle finger from Coyote to the Court, but I don't think that's the plan, and it's not clear if Loup could make it there before being swallowed by the ocean.
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Post by arf on Sept 28, 2022 7:18:44 GMT
Perhaps the Court has developed an etheric form of irukanji jellyfish toxin.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 28, 2022 7:23:42 GMT
If Coyote knew about the Star Ocean then why not use it to off himself instead of running an elaborate scheme that took years? He probably could have come up with some other excuse for making the Court want to evacuate. Assuming he did know about it I figure there must have been something about dying that way that wouldn't scratch the itch. At bare minimum he shouldn't have been able to return to see the results. Ysengrin had a real body but I don't think "Loup" does, so only Jerrek would be able to make the journey... assuming he really wants to go to this ether-parched planet.
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Post by madjack on Sept 28, 2022 7:26:17 GMT
Coyote figured out a way to use Loup to do something to the Ocean/Omega project? Would the death of Loup overload it somehow? Destroying it? Or blow it open to allow Coyote to enter? Would Jerek's New Person body then become a totem for Coyote to transition into the new world? With Loup being the sacrifice And carry a shade or seed of the ether with him (unknowingly?), possibly making the whole trip and hundreds of years of work useless. Coyote's greatest prank. |
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Post by bicarbonat on Sept 28, 2022 8:45:07 GMT
The fragmenting skull reminds me of trepanation, the process said (among other things) to expand consciousness or release malignant spirits. Of course, there's the more obvious "blowing his mind"/"falling apart" – but Loup has talked such a big game about wanting to know more and be more, exalted Coyote's powers even as Ysengrin.
Wanting expanded consciousness is one thing. But losing a piece of your skull is quite another. Can't make an omelette without cracking a few craniums, m'dear.
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Post by blahzor on Sept 28, 2022 9:54:07 GMT
Scardy Dog
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Post by blahzor on Sept 28, 2022 9:55:50 GMT
Coyote figured out a way to use Loup to do something to the Ocean/Omega project? Would the death of Loup overload it somehow? Destroying it? Or blow it open to allow Coyote to enter? Would Jerek's New Person body then become a totem for Coyote to transition into the new world? With Loup being the sacrifice Since Loup is the shell. Him going kills him and Coyote being inside nice and tucked away comes out in the new planet, the sole ether figure and can mold the world to his whim in ways not possible normally even for him |
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 28, 2022 11:03:56 GMT
I agree, dying sucks.
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Post by philman on Sept 28, 2022 12:00:07 GMT
Coyote figured out a way to use Loup to do something to the Ocean/Omega project? Would the death of Loup overload it somehow? Destroying it? Or blow it open to allow Coyote to enter? Would Jerek's New Person body then become a totem for Coyote to transition into the new world? With Loup being the sacrifice Since Loup is the shell. Him going kills him and Coyote being inside nice and tucked away comes out in the new planet, the sole ether figure and can mold the world to his whim in ways not possible normally even for him Indeed, was thinking something similar. Loup is sacrificed, and Jerrek travels to the new world. Once there, Jerrek "remembers" he is actually a totem for coyote and sets him free. |
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Post by speedwell on Sept 28, 2022 12:53:33 GMT
Poor Lana. I have a great deal of sympathy for her. I may find her a bit obnoxious, but her approach (however eye-rolling) clearly comes from an open heart and she means well. Her awkwardness is a fault (as was once famously said of childhood itself) that time will cure. In the meantime her wide and persistent blush seems to show that she apparently believes Jerrek is getting hot and bothered by being so close to her.
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Post by Bo No Bo on Sept 28, 2022 12:56:25 GMT
This is some peak quality Jerrek face right now
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Post by csj on Sept 28, 2022 14:44:51 GMT
Loup must carry or represent a large quantity of ether. Maybe if Loup does travel over there and dies he'll infect the place with ether much more quickly than the thousands of years the stories would take to do the same. Would be an incredible middle finger from Coyote to the Court, but I don't think that's the plan, and it's not clear if Loup could make it there before being swallowed by the ocean. the decontamination procedure crew is gonna have ptsd |
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Post by ctso74 on Sept 28, 2022 14:54:43 GMT
Is that Jerrek tapping his foot, out of nervousness, or is something else tapping?
You will think it's a fantastic plan, then you will die? As others have speculated, Loup may think that, but not know the whole plan. If this is a bid to be the sole Etheric being on a planet etherphobes, that is quite the prank.
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Post by speedwell on Sept 28, 2022 15:07:35 GMT
Is that Jerrek tapping his foot, out of nervousness, or is something else tapping? You will think it's a fantastic plan, then you will die? As others have speculated, Loup may think that, but not know the whole plan. If this is a bid to be the sole Etheric being on a planet etherphobes, that is quite the prank. He's shaking his left leg out of sheer anxiety, and what's tapping is probably his heel. From the way in which he is holding his eyes, furthermore, it reminds me irresistibly of how a dog twists its head and shuts the eye on the itchy side when having a good rhythmic scratch behind the ear. The way a dog shakes its leg when you rub its belly is specifically not intended here. No comment on how he might react while, um, snogging. |
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Post by maxptc on Sept 28, 2022 15:22:36 GMT
I get it Loup, I feel the same way about the future of commercial space travel.
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Post by Corvo on Sept 28, 2022 18:40:14 GMT
Man, Eggs is not looking well here. I warned you about body-enhancement tatoos bro!!!! I told you dog!
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 28, 2022 19:23:40 GMT
Coyote figured out a way to use Loup to do something to the Ocean/Omega project? Would the death of Loup overload it somehow? Destroying it? Or blow it open to allow Coyote to enter? Would Jerek's New Person body then become a totem for Coyote to transition into the new world? With Loup being the sacrifice The first questions is, how much would he want to mess with them to begin with? They are going to leave most interesting people behind, after all. |
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Post by drmemory on Sept 28, 2022 19:52:33 GMT
What Coyote said wasn't quite so cause-and-effect. As usual, Loup has simplified. A reminder!
Coyote told him he could find his answers in the court, and that Ysengrin might even help him find what he sought. He then told him to put the pieces together to see the reason he (Coyote) wished him to die.
So... Ysengrin hasn't made an appearance directly yet, though I could believe he is behind some of how Jerrek has been acting. Also, Coyote did NOT say Loup would die when he figured out his plan! Not direct cause and effect at least, like "learn the forbidden knowledge and die immediately as a result". A calmer mind might have interpreted this to mean "I'm not in danger until I figure this out".
I do think he's getting closer to having the information needed, but I don't think it's directly a trap. It might freak him out to the point where Annie must kill him immediately to stop him from running amok or something... But perhaps not quite yet.
What's missing:
No direct help from Ysengrin yet, though that was mentioned as a possibility, not a harbinger nor an omen. Not a lot of understanding yet. More pieces to the puzzle than he's ever had before, so there's that at least. But again, he doesn't know how to put them together.
He still does not understand the reason Coyote wishes him to die.
In summary, it looks like things are heating up and something dramatic may be about to happen, but I don't think it'll be immediate "Death By Knife Wielded By Annie". Not yet, at least.
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Post by rabbit on Sept 28, 2022 22:11:18 GMT
Since Loup is the shell. Him going kills him and Coyote being inside nice and tucked away comes out in the new planet, the sole ether figure and can mold the world to his whim in ways not possible normally even for him Indeed, was thinking something similar. Loup is sacrificed, and Jerrek travels to the new world. Once there, Jerrek "remembers" he is actually a totem for coyote and sets him free. This definitely puts a different spin on Coyote’s statement that he would see Annie one last time - I assumed because he would die thereafter, but perhaps he is simply going to a new world, to seed it with the ether? |
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Post by rabbit on Sept 28, 2022 22:13:13 GMT
All ABOOOOOOOARD! Gunnerkrigg Court … Star Ocean … End of the Line!
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Post by ldsrrs on Sept 29, 2022 5:19:13 GMT
What Coyote said wasn't quite so cause-and-effect. As usual, Loup has simplified. A reminder!Coyote told him he could find his answers in the court, and that Ysengrin might even help him find what he sought. He then told him to put the pieces together to see the reason he (Coyote) wished him to die. What Coyote told him earlier was more like direct cause-and-effect. "... and when you learn of it, you will agree that it is a wonderful plan! and then you will die!". |
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Post by drmemory on Sept 29, 2022 6:01:45 GMT
What Coyote said wasn't quite so cause-and-effect. As usual, Loup has simplified. A reminder!Coyote told him he could find his answers in the court, and that Ysengrin might even help him find what he sought. He then told him to put the pieces together to see the reason he (Coyote) wished him to die. What Coyote told him earlier was more like direct cause-and-effect. "... and when you learn of it, you will agree that it is a wonderful plan! and then you will die!". Yes, agreed, but he didn't say "and then you will IMMEDIATELY die!". That's pretty much what I was trying to get at - Coyote said that Loup would learn (figure out? be told?) Coyote's plan and would agree it was a wonderful plan. He implied that he would die after that, but didn't directly link them - it isn't clear that he'll have to die right away as soon as he understands the plan, or even that he'll die because he understands the plan. For that matter he doesn't really put in a time limit - I don't think this, but it could be interpreted as "and then you will live to a ripe old age, and die". But that isn't the case because he also told Annie he wanted her to kill Loup with the tooth/knife and made her conceal she had it until then. I agree that Coyote said what you quoted there, I'm just trying to interpret it.
Anyway, I read this, and the rest, as Coyote saying that Loup dying is part of the plan, so that when Loup comes to understand the plan and see that it is a good plan, he'll be willing to go along with that. That's the key thing that hasn't happened yet - every time Loup learns anything he thinks that he knows what Coyote wanted him to learn, but obviously that isn't the case because he doesn't understand the plan yet. Loup wants to live and doesn't see that this is even an option - that there could be a good plan that requires his death so it will succeed.
This is getting far afield from your post, and I'm sorry about that, but... think of it this way. We've got a pretty good idea of the court's plan now, from the points of view of two ex-shadow men, one of whom was their leader. We know a bit of background relating to that, like about the existence of Omega and what it is supposed to be, from multiple sources, and even know Aata's opinion on why Omega stopped being as accurate. We know about the Star Ocean and the mysterious entities trying to get the court people to move to another planet and leave the court behind and have reason to believe this is not a good idea for the court people. Etc, etc. What we DON'T know is what Coyote's plan is, nor what he knew (he probably knows the truth behind things, not just the story we've assembled from hearsay), nor what parts he thinks are so bad they require this elaborate plan involving his tooth, Annie, Ysengrin, Loup, etc. Interestingly, he stated much of this pretty clearly to Loup, without any obvious evasion, probably because he knew Loup would misinterpret it and do basically what he's doing now.
I still wonder whether we might be seeing an iteration of a time loop Coyote's been repeating, trying different approaches to get the outcome he wants.
Coyote doesn't lie, but you need to be a pretty good rules lawyer to understand what he really said. 
TL;DR - We still don't know Coyote's plan. I believe his plan requires the death of Loup to succeed, and that Loup will agree with that once he learns said plan, because that's the clearest part of what Coyote said.
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Post by hannibalbarca on Sept 29, 2022 16:39:53 GMT
huh. okay, well, loup can freak out all he wants about the star ocean and how it'd destroy him, but...
rereading the past pages, annie is half etheric, renard is full etheric, zimmy is (?) etheric. they've been doing just fine in the star ocean, unless i missed something. swallowing huge gulps of the water of the star ocean even.
coyote told annie she'd kill loup with her big coyote tooth - now of course he could have lied, but it felt like such a big deal in the coyote narrative i'm not sure such an important step of coyote's "prophecy" (because its a plan he has made, but it functions as a prophecy doesnt it ?) would be just... bogus. so it seems like that is indeed loup's fate. he will indeed get killed by annie with the tooth.
loup doesn't know this, of course. all he knows is that he will figure out coyote's plan one way or another, and then he'll die. i think something i can start to understand about loup that redeems his character to me in terms of interest is that he is absolutely terrified of dying. loup's whole existence has been doomed from the start, how can he not ? he's basically a baby god who barely had the time to start playing around with his toys until the powers that be (everyone around him, including his weird god-parents-halfsouls) were like "loup, you're going to die. loup, we're going to kill you, and you're just a pawn. loup, you're a dead pup walking. you have a time limit, loup."
"but i didn't even get to walk ten times the length of the earth and see everything and trick people and destroy cities and mock dying men in the desert," loup cries, probably.
so i think he's just having a good ol panic attack right now. i'm sure he's feeling the tug of the star ocean, for sure. he could feel it from the forest. getting close to it must feel like SOMETHING. however, considering the fact that he is currently melting into himself and freaking out majorly about this, it feels like the star ocean will do Nothing to him and he just felt the vague buzz of the star ocean nearing closer as a surefire clue that he is about to Explode in Thousands Of Pieces - because he's just a pup terrified of dying and trying to cheat death any way he can so he'll overreact over anything feeling "odd" or anything out of the ordinary (which is sad because he's a baby god in a big world with new concepts, such as star oceans).
"b-b-but i don't want to die !"
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Post by warrl on Sept 29, 2022 20:27:09 GMT
It occurs to me that nothing so far says Annie will deliberately kill Loup. She may be trying to save him (obviously, she'll fail). Or she may be trying to save part of him by sundering the part that cannot be saved (she might succeed at that - or might not).
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Post by mturtle7 on Sept 30, 2022 3:43:16 GMT
huh. okay, well, loup can freak out all he wants about the star ocean and how it'd destroy him, but... rereading the past pages, annie is half etheric, renard is full etheric, zimmy is (?) etheric. they've been doing just fine in the star ocean, unless i missed something. swallowing huge gulps of the water of the star ocean even. Admittedly, this only really explains Zimmy, not Annie or Renard. Or any of the other students on that cruise ship who were connected to the Ether, for that matter. Or Lindsey... Like, I've been trying to say that Zimmy is just categorically different from all the others, in the same power class as Loup, so that's why only were affected...but it still seems kinda weird that Renard, Lindsey, and the students with etheric powers weren't affected even a little. Especially given how the M.C.R. was talking about "those particularly connected with the ether" on the cruise, as if it was a big group.
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Post by drmemory on Sept 30, 2022 6:20:25 GMT
huh. okay, well, loup can freak out all he wants about the star ocean and how it'd destroy him, but... rereading the past pages, annie is half etheric, renard is full etheric, zimmy is (?) etheric. they've been doing just fine in the star ocean, unless i missed something. swallowing huge gulps of the water of the star ocean even. Admittedly, this only really explains Zimmy, not Annie or Renard. Or any of the other students on that cruise ship who were connected to the Ether, for that matter. Or Lindsey... Like, I've been trying to say that Zimmy is just categorically different from all the others, in the same power class as Loup, so that's why only were affected...but it still seems kinda weird that Renard, Lindsey, and the students with etheric powers weren't affected even a little. Especially given how the M.C.R. was talking about "those particularly connected with the ether" on the cruise, as if it was a big group.
Coyote and Loup both have a lot of etheric energy they carry around with them. Well in both cases, it's actually Coyote's power, but I think the point is valid. This is why the court kept trying to steal it - they needed a big chunk of it. We've recently been led to believe it was to power their Star Ocean.
So does this imply that Zimmy also carries around a heavy load of ether? Jones describes how the way in which she is attuned to the ether differs but doesn't address actual power levels. We know that the Star Ocean made Zimmy sick, and we're seeing that it certainly does SOMETHING to Loup, but it seems different. It doesn't really do anything to Annie or Renard or the other students (at least none that we saw).
I suspect part of this can be explained by the Star Ocean absorbing ether when a big source draws near. Jerrek looks like he's either being sucked in or like his power is being sucked out of him.
Zimmy is different and experienced different effects from the SO. We know the way she processes ether is different - maybe she generates it or collects it somehow and lacks any way to regulate it, and the SO makes it worse? That's my best guess as to how Zimmy works - she is constantly generating or absorbing ether, and needs to be cooled down by rain or Gamma or Annie(s), and when she gets too stressed or just has too much energy, she pops and manifests Zimmyland, sometimes pulling others into it with her. There is a bad interaction between Zimmy's nature and the SO's nature...
Others, like Annie and Renard, can use and even enter the ether, but they don't walk around with a huge amount of it, so the SO doesn't do much to them.
That's my best guess at how to explain the different effects. I'm saying that entities that can use the ether but don't carry around a huge amount of it are basically unaffected by the Star Ocean (even if they were created by the ether and the minds of men), but those that carry around a huge load have it sucked away by the SO. This even accounts for Kat, who was clearly using it pretty vigorously on the ship even though she is normally not sensitive to it in the least. She was manipulating it but not absorbing it, so no conflict.
Oh yes, this still means Jerrek is in trouble. Perhaps he shouldn't have tried to visit the Star Ocean. Ah well, if he survives he'll probably figure out more of the puzzle.
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Post by Runningflame on Sept 30, 2022 14:25:03 GMT
i think something i can start to understand about loup that redeems his character to me in terms of interest is that he is absolutely terrified of dying. loup's whole existence has been doomed from the start, how can he not ? he's basically a baby god who barely had the time to start playing around with his toys until the powers that be (everyone around him, including his weird god-parents-halfsouls) were like "loup, you're going to die. loup, we're going to kill you, and you're just a pawn. loup, you're a dead pup walking. you have a time limit, loup." "but i didn't even get to walk ten times the length of the earth and see everything and trick people and destroy cities and mock dying men in the desert," loup cries, probably. so i think he's just having a good ol panic attack right now. When you put it that way, I also find Loup suddenly more relatable. (Also, I like your godling bucket list.) In short, he's an etheric hypochondriac. |
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Post by blahzor on Sept 30, 2022 21:51:41 GMT
huh. okay, well, loup can freak out all he wants about the star ocean and how it'd destroy him, but... rereading the past pages, annie is half etheric, renard is full etheric, zimmy is (?) etheric. they've been doing just fine in the star ocean, unless i missed something. swallowing huge gulps of the water of the star ocean even. coyote told annie she'd kill loup with her big coyote tooth - now of course he could have lied, but it felt like such a big deal in the coyote narrative i'm not sure such an important step of coyote's "prophecy" (because its a plan he has made, but it functions as a prophecy doesnt it ?) would be just... bogus. so it seems like that is indeed loup's fate. he will indeed get killed by annie with the tooth. loup doesn't know this, of course. all he knows is that he will figure out coyote's plan one way or another, and then he'll die. i think something i can start to understand about loup that redeems his character to me in terms of interest is that he is absolutely terrified of dying. loup's whole existence has been doomed from the start, how can he not ? he's basically a baby god who barely had the time to start playing around with his toys until the powers that be (everyone around him, including his weird god-parents-halfsouls) were like "loup, you're going to die. loup, we're going to kill you, and you're just a pawn. loup, you're a dead pup walking. you have a time limit, loup." "but i didn't even get to walk ten times the length of the earth and see everything and trick people and destroy cities and mock dying men in the desert," loup cries, probably. so i think he's just having a good ol panic attack right now. i'm sure he's feeling the tug of the star ocean, for sure. he could feel it from the forest. getting close to it must feel like SOMETHING. however, considering the fact that he is currently melting into himself and freaking out majorly about this, it feels like the star ocean will do Nothing to him and he just felt the vague buzz of the star ocean nearing closer as a surefire clue that he is about to Explode in Thousands Of Pieces - because he's just a pup terrified of dying and trying to cheat death any way he can so he'll overreact over anything feeling "odd" or anything out of the ordinary (which is sad because he's a baby god in a big world with new concepts, such as star oceans). "b-b-but i don't want to die !" Coyotoe doesn't like, he never said Annie kills him directly. She owns the tooth in ethernic contract world that's her's/. She most likely has the tooth on her. And Loup somehow dies b/c of this i.e. he goes for a kiss and the tooth is out he dives in front of something and get stabbed etc etc |
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