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Post by speedwell on Aug 12, 2022 18:47:03 GMT
Just pointing out that New Improved Ether-Free World is not and cannot be the same as the reality we forum posters inhabit... unless, of course, you think Tom is a historian rather than an author of a work of fiction, heh. But besides that, this reality actually does arguably contain observable, explainable things that are often classified, breathlessly, as "paranormal". Don't be fooled; things are either real or they aren't - if you are of the opinion that there is something "outside reality" or supernatural, I contend that your concept of the real and natural is too narrow.
It occurs to me that I might be treating this brilliantly fun comic with too much rigidity and not enough proper readerly suspension of disbelief. If that's the case, Tom, I sincerely apologise. Refer to my signature and be amused that the character Ragnar is apparently assigned my precise personality type, INTJ/8w9 (Myers-Briggs, that is, and the enneagram).
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Post by sebastian on Aug 12, 2022 19:32:44 GMT
Would anyone care to speculate on what would happen if Zeta was sent to this planet..? The place being ether-free or having very low etheric pressure I'd think Zimmingham would bust out and cover a radically large area of the place, maybe permanently. So over time what would that evolve into, after Zeta is gone one way or another? A planet of intelligent whitelegs that revere a departed mother-goddess? "she died and we did nothing"
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 12, 2022 22:28:20 GMT
Would anyone care to speculate on what would happen if Zeta was sent to this planet..? The place being ether-free or having very low etheric pressure I'd think Zimmingham would bust out and cover a radically large area of the place, maybe permanently. So over time what would that evolve into, after Zeta is gone one way or another? A planet of intelligent whitelegs that revere a departed mother-goddess? "she died and we did nothing" "...And then we ate her."
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Post by mordekai on Aug 12, 2022 23:42:27 GMT
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Post by todd on Aug 12, 2022 23:52:50 GMT
I still wonder whether the Court's rejection of the ether suggest it's not as scientific as it wants to believe. In the world of the webcomic, the Court has seen ample evidence that the etheric does exist - if you're building defenses against etheric beings that are themselves etheric, or using the ether as a way of reaching another planet, you can't then claim that it's only non-existent superstition. Its rejection seems to be a case of "We don't like it, so we're going to remove ourselves from it". A genuine scientist, faced with evidence that the ether and etheric beings exist on the level of what the Court's encountered (on a level of, say, getting an actual body of a Loch Ness Monster rather than just blurry photos) would admit that the phenomena exist, even if they can't explain them yet.
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Post by crater on Aug 13, 2022 2:38:17 GMT
What gives them the idea that this new world will remain free of the Ether one humans start living and dying there? I get the impression that the Ether is a creation of living beings. If so does the Court know this? severing themselves from the forest made one monster, maybe they are trying to employ a bigger one
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Post by maxptc on Aug 13, 2022 2:48:29 GMT
"So that's my pitch. We allow scientific testing on unknowing children, hate magic but don't think using it for this is a problem, and while its true we haven't invited your magical family members because we don't like magic, we also don't believe magic is genetic so it's cool if your parents or kids or siblings are magic. Again we are scientists being scientific. So which of you super smart people are going to get on a magic space boat with a stranger? And don't worry, if you answer no I won't do anything aside from erasing your memory of my appearance and voice, again all very non magical and scientific."
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Post by drmemory on Aug 13, 2022 4:52:58 GMT
So... let us take you to this other world where there will be no ether (except for what we control)? This truly sounds like a Bad Plan for the victims er subjects... I really feel like they are being offered the opportunity to be powerless slaves. Which is actually pretty consistent with my theories about Omega doing a big power grab in the shadows. The won't even have any control over the trip. Semi-metaphorical my butt! No power over how and when they go and no ability to return. Not good.
Also, as was previously mentioned, who is even bothered by the ether? The only problem I've heard so far is jealousy and that was from one person only.
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Post by speedwell on Aug 13, 2022 11:21:23 GMT
Also, as was previously mentioned, who is even bothered by the ether? The only problem I've heard so far is jealousy and that was from one person only.
In a word, people who want to be the masters of all that is Etheric and find themselves thwarted by the fact that they just don't get it. They're like a nerdy eleven-year-old who, finding himself repeatedly excluded from the neighbourhood ball game for incompetence despite having read all about the history and rules of the game and memorising all its statistics, pretends to turn up his nose at "dumb jocks" and shuts himself in the basement with his first-person shooter instead. Or like a tale we all know about an unclever fox and some unfairly slandered grapes. As Geoffrey Whitney felicitously put it in verse: The Foxe, that longe for grapes did leape in vayne,With wearie limmes, at lengthe did sad departe:And to him selfe quoth hee, I doe disdayneThese grapes I see, bicause their taste is tarte: So thou, that hunt'st for that thou longe hast mist, Still makes thy boast, thou maist if that thou list.Note the last line, where Whitney points out that the fox of the fable would likely say that he totally could have had the grapes if he had really wanted them. Like that fox, the Court take refuge in immature petulance, self-gaslighting, and (despite their scientistic pose) lazy failure to face facts and construct an effective approach to a solution. Pace Paz (no pun intended), her rosy view of the Court as "people just trying to make things better" is largely unjustified at best. By the way, you keep referring to "Omega" as though we haven't nearly always seen it in-comic preceded by "the" and followed by "device". Although there is considerable overlap in Gunnerkrigg between sapient beings and machinery, I assert that it is by no means safe to assign volition to whatever "Omega" represents, other than perhaps the committee who developed and implemented the device.
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Post by MarineMonarch on Aug 13, 2022 13:15:03 GMT
The thing that the court has against the ether is that it can't be understood. That's not to say that it cant be measured or utilised via technology in some senses, just that it inherently doesn't make sense.
I mean it's clear how the ether is illogical by its own nature. It either applies retroactively or exists regardless of causality, it has its own seemingly arbitrary rules but also has gods capable of doing whatever the fuck they want, it had multiple realities overlaid on each other. There's no explanation for why one person can just teleport.
Technology using it exists but humans will never be able to understand why it works because there is no why. It just works. The court doesn't want to live in a world where they can't understand why, because they see truth and understanding as the most important thing. It doesn't matter what the "applications" of this etheric/magical technology is. I can understand that as a value system even if I think it's stupid.
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Post by maxptc on Aug 13, 2022 14:00:29 GMT
The thing that the court has against the ether is that it can't be understood. That's not to say that it cant be measured or utilised via technology in some senses, just that it inherently doesn't make sense. I mean it's clear how the ether is illogical by its own nature. It either applies retroactively or exists regardless of causality, it has its own seemingly arbitrary rules but also has gods capable of doing whatever the fuck they want, it had multiple realities overlaid on each other. There's no explanation for why one person can just teleport. Technology using it exists but humans will never be able to understand why it works because there is no why. It just works. The court doesn't want to live in a world where they can't understand why, because they see truth and understanding as the most important thing. It doesn't matter what the "applications" of this etheric/magical technology is. I can understand that as a value system even if I think it's stupid. To be fair to the Court people who buy this, the idea that a tangible being like Coyete could literally know everything or change the rules of reality is super alarming. I get the philosophy of our world "real science doesn't balk at a mystery" but we don't have magical death creatures. Maybe our scientists would have different morality if a God lived next door.
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Post by mordekai on Aug 13, 2022 14:13:40 GMT
The thing that the court has against the ether is that it can't be understood. That's not to say that it cant be measured or utilised via technology in some senses, just that it inherently doesn't make sense. I mean it's clear how the ether is illogical by its own nature. It either applies retroactively or exists regardless of causality, it has its own seemingly arbitrary rules but also has gods capable of doing whatever the fuck they want, it had multiple realities overlaid on each other. There's no explanation for why one person can just teleport. Technology using it exists but humans will never be able to understand why it works because there is no why. It just works. The court doesn't want to live in a world where they can't understand why, because they see truth and understanding as the most important thing. It doesn't matter what the "applications" of this etheric/magical technology is. I can understand that as a value system even if I think it's stupid. The problem is, the Ether will still exist after they leave, so they aren't solving the problem, they are just covering their ears and eyes, ignoring it.They will purposely create a new worldview built on lies: "the Ether doesn't exist, we know and control everything!". Practical benefits: Zero. Practical loses: Renouncing starfaring tech and getting stuck in another planet. Philosophical loses:Creating a false "Science" that ignores everything it dislikes...
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 13, 2022 17:39:53 GMT
And once again the observation is obvious: Everyone depicted at the location besides Kat is obviously an adult. And the entity also speaks to the crowd as if they are all adults ("the cruise you took when you were children" is only, what, two years ago for Kat?). What's up with that? Why were the teens shown saying that some of them got invitations, and now each page carefully makes sure to show there are no other teens beside Kat? Ah, but there was an adult with them... just in the water and not on the ship... who apparently didn't even realize what was happening until Paz jumped into the water to tell her... and then did nothing useful besides smashing a glass roof... while people were under it. Sounds like pure space horror. I like it.
Perhaps this “when you were children” comment suggests that even though each person feels like they are among a crowd listening to a single speaker, the being speaking to them is actually speaking to each of them, individually, through their mind, and people are receiving different, tailor-made messages. But the story is being told through Kat's eyes, and since she's not an adult yet it makes even less sense to formulate a message directed at her personally like this.
Does this mean that everyone present is/was a student from the same year in school as Kat, Janet, Winsbury, Annie (at that time), etc.? Highly unlikely. The other attendees are all obviously older and taller than Kat.
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Post by sebastian on Aug 13, 2022 17:54:26 GMT
The thing that the court has against the ether is that it can't be understood. That's not to say that it cant be measured or utilised via technology in some senses, just that it inherently doesn't make sense. I mean it's clear how the ether is illogical by its own nature. It either applies retroactively or exists regardless of causality, it has its own seemingly arbitrary rules but also has gods capable of doing whatever the fuck they want, it had multiple realities overlaid on each other. There's no explanation for why one person can just teleport. Technology using it exists but humans will never be able to understand why it works because there is no why. It just works. The court doesn't want to live in a world where they can't understand why, because they see truth and understanding as the most important thing. It doesn't matter what the "applications" of this etheric/magical technology is. I can understand that as a value system even if I think it's stupid. Want to Understanding something it is not stupid. for example, we understand electricity, when something go wrong with it we can understand why and avoid it. With ether you can't, suppose you have a etheric based teleport, and one time you used it teleport, but you arrive half a centimeter tall, why? Who knows! how do you avoid it? who double knows. it is frustating. I can see why people won't like it.
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Post by blahzor on Aug 13, 2022 18:41:35 GMT
The thing that the court has against the ether is that it can't be understood. That's not to say that it cant be measured or utilised via technology in some senses, just that it inherently doesn't make sense. I mean it's clear how the ether is illogical by its own nature. It either applies retroactively or exists regardless of causality, it has its own seemingly arbitrary rules but also has gods capable of doing whatever the fuck they want, it had multiple realities overlaid on each other. There's no explanation for why one person can just teleport. Technology using it exists but humans will never be able to understand why it works because there is no why. It just works. The court doesn't want to live in a world where they can't understand why, because they see truth and understanding as the most important thing. It doesn't matter what the "applications" of this etheric/magical technology is. I can understand that as a value system even if I think it's stupid. The problem is, the Ether will still exist after they leave, so they aren't solving the problem, they are just covering their ears and eyes, ignoring it.They will purposely create a new worldview built on lies: "the Ether doesn't exist, we know and control everything!". Practical benefits: Zero. Practical loses: Renouncing starfaring tech and getting stuck in another planet. Philosophical loses:Creating a false "Science" that ignores everything it dislikes... The problem is once they are gone nothing is stopping the ether people from going to them. Can't build a tech and expect no one will ever try and use it again
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Post by warrl on Aug 13, 2022 19:59:41 GMT
But the story is being told through Kat's eyes, and since she's not an adult yet it makes even less sense to formulate a message directed at her personally like this. Teenagers like to think they are no longer kids, before that is really the case. Acknowledging that questionable adulthood can be a way of buttering them up and making them more willing to go along with your plan. Whether what Kat is hearing is the same as what the dark figures there are hearing... undetermined.
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Post by mordekai on Aug 13, 2022 20:21:18 GMT
Perhaps this “when you were children” comment suggests that even though each person feels like they are among a crowd listening to a single speaker, the being speaking to them is actually speaking to each of them, individually, through their mind, and people are receiving different, tailor-made messages. But the story is being told through Kat's eyes, and since she's not an adult yet it makes even less sense to formulate a message directed at her personally like this.
Does this mean that everyone present is/was a student from the same year in school as Kat, Janet, Winsbury, Annie (at that time), etc.? Highly unlikely. The other attendees are all obviously older and taller than Kat. Don't trust their heights as a good indication of their relative ages; Kat and Annie should have reached their full adult height already, but Tom depict them as short to remind us readers that they are young...
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 13, 2022 21:26:56 GMT
But the story is being told through Kat's eyes, and since she's not an adult yet it makes even less sense to formulate a message directed at her personally like this.
Highly unlikely. The other attendees are all obviously older and taller than Kat.
Don't trust their heights as a good indication of their relative ages; Kat and Annie should have reached their full adult height already, but Tom depict them as short to remind us readers that they are young... Yes, and they are depicted with the same height as their (current in Kat's case, former in Annie's case) classmates. But no one in this crowd is. The logical conclusion is that the other people there are supposed to be older.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 13, 2022 21:29:59 GMT
They will purposely create a new worldview built on lies: "the Ether doesn't exist, we know and control everything!". Practical benefits: Zero. Practical loses: Renouncing starfaring tech and getting stuck in another planet. Philosophical loses: Creating a false "Science" that ignores everything it dislikes... Feeling awesome because they've deluded themselves into believing they're smart and advancing both science and humanity: Priceless! ^meme from a very old tv ad for a credit card
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Post by todd on Aug 14, 2022 1:07:42 GMT
And they an't do that much advancing of humanity if they've isolated themselves on a remote planet with, apparently, no means of sending their discoveries back to the rest of the human race (not that the Court's shown any signs of being interested in sharing its discoveries with the outside world before).
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Post by Geekette on Aug 14, 2022 3:38:19 GMT
And they an't do that much advancing of humanity if they've isolated themselves on a remote planet with, apparently, no means of sending their discoveries back to the rest of the human race (not that the Court's shown any signs of being interested in sharing its discoveries with the outside world before). That assumes that they want to advancing humanity as a whole or that they see the rest of humanity as something worth uplifting. Or that they'll view the ones left behind - the ones influenced and continuing to be influenced by ether - as still being human. This seems a lot less about advancing everyone else and more about about making a distinction of us vs them. 'They' have ether connection, they had magic powers; 'we' do not. We're mundane. Everything we do is through our own effort, we had to do it all ourselves using only our own cleverness without any of this magic nonsense help or cheating or shortcuts like they do. And maybe there is a grain of truth to that, which would make this an appealing offer to some. In a world with ether, the ones that unable to use ether are always going to start at a disadvantage. One way to even the playing field is to just eliminate the advantageous factor. But that's not about what's the objectively best decision for everyone, just about making it ' fair'. So it does feel like the kid of lost the soccer game saying "Well fine, I'm going to take my ball and go play a different game and none of you can join."
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Post by maxptc on Aug 14, 2022 4:05:34 GMT
Perhaps this “when you were children” comment suggests that even though each person feels like they are among a crowd listening to a single speaker, the being speaking to them is actually speaking to each of them, individually, through their mind, and people are receiving different, tailor-made messages. I took that comment to mean the cruise has been a long running experiment, so that comment applies to eveyone regardless of age. Who runs a test only once? I bet the cruise has been a long running tradition. Not yearly, but common enough that going at some point in your academic life is assured.
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Post by madjack on Aug 14, 2022 9:20:41 GMT
Perhaps this “when you were children” comment suggests that even though each person feels like they are among a crowd listening to a single speaker, the being speaking to them is actually speaking to each of them, individually, through their mind, and people are receiving different, tailor-made messages. I took that comment to mean the cruise has been a long running experiment, so that comment applies to eveyone regardless of age. Who runs a test only once? I bet the cruise has been a long running tradition. Not yearly, but common enough that going at some point in your academic life is assured. Wildspec: Maybe the ether extraction event from Power Station was one of several to prepare for the next cruise. They only take the ship out a short distance 'away' from the ether before returning, so don't need the kind of quantities powering a full-on interplanetary voyage would. Maybe also not a surprise that we saw Jack in every chapter associated with it then. Annie and Kat are discussing what just happened at the meeting right now, but perhaps there are more people there, Janet for example. I wonder if they'll go find Jack and get his view on what's going on, or have already done so.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 14, 2022 9:27:59 GMT
Okay this is all well and good - go make a new Gunnerkrigg, with blackjack and hookers or whatever - but here's what I don't get. The entire purpose of the Court was to study the intersection of magic and technology. To try and explain the ether, if you will, and control it, exploit it, what have you. Obviously, we've been given some sound arguments on how the ether defies explanation, but it clearly doesn't defy being exploited. It's amenable to being tamed in some capacity, and we've seen this happen multiple times. That there might be a faction of the Court who's sick of it all and wants it gone, sure I'll believe that. But the idea that leaving has been the primary goal?? That strikes me as total baloney. Even leaving aside Coyote's EXTREMELY compelling argument that the ether exists because humans exist and our need to explain and tell stories is what gives beings from the ether life, ergo no world in the universe that humans set foot on will ever truly be free of the ether - there's STILL the fact that they're effectively admitting failure in relation to the founders' goals. That's totally nuts.
Either these people are fools, or they're trying to attract fools onto yet another ethically unsound experiment, and this is all a pack of lies.
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Post by blahzor on Aug 14, 2022 11:24:48 GMT
You try and explain it for decades and just said f it
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Post by todd on Aug 14, 2022 18:32:33 GMT
A thought that just occurred to me. When Annie was first speaking with Loup in the forest and Yesngrin's consciousness briefly resurfaced, he warned Annie that the Court had plans to take her somewhere far away.
The Court has now gone far away indeed - but without Annie. Not only could they not take her along with them because of the "no etheric people" rule, but it's apparently leaving for good. And since it's already obtained the etheric power supply to pull this off, that rules out them kidnapping her and using her as the power supply.
So how will Ysengrin's prediction be fulfilled, with the Court apparently out of the story? Unless this is an idea of Tom's that he later abandoned, that is....
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Post by speedwell on Aug 14, 2022 19:47:52 GMT
Either these people are fools, or they're trying to attract fools onto yet another ethically unsound experiment, and this is all a pack of lies. Not at all mutually exclusive, of course. (... blackjack and hookers, bwahaha...)
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Post by speedwell on Aug 14, 2022 19:57:29 GMT
A thought that just occurred to me. When Annie was first speaking with Loup in the forest and Yesngrin's consciousness briefly resurfaced, he warned Annie that the Court had plans to take her somewhere far away. The Court has now gone far away indeed - but without Annie. Not only could they not take her along with them because of the "no etheric people" rule, but it's apparently leaving for good. And since it's already obtained the etheric power supply to pull this off, that rules out them kidnapping her and using her as the power supply. So how will Ysengrin's prediction be fulfilled, with the Court apparently out of the story? Unless this is an idea of Tom's that he later abandoned, that is.... Well. I am not exactly married to the concept, even though it is not a poor fit to the facts as we know them. But if the Gunnerkrigg milieu as a whole is a simulation, as we've discussed from time to time, then I assume the programmers could do the equivalent of popping the memory device containing it out of the drive, tuck it into their back pocket, and walk away whistling Dixie. As for the Ether and Realm of the Dead, I think the best evidence is that they overlap (i.e. are not deliberately designed into) the simulation, which is why the thought forms associated with them are able to freely access and influence it - and why the Court control freaks are so ticked off.
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Post by todd on Aug 15, 2022 0:39:18 GMT
So... let us take you to this other world where there will be no ether (except for what we control)? This truly sounds like a Bad Plan for the victims er subjects... I really feel like they are being offered the opportunity to be powerless slaves. Which is actually pretty consistent with my theories about Omega doing a big power grab in the shadows. The won't even have any control over the trip. Semi-metaphorical my butt! No power over how and when they go and no ability to return. Not good. Also, as was previously mentioned, who is even bothered by the ether? The only problem I've heard so far is jealousy and that was from one person only.
I suspect that the Court's counting on the hold of rhetoric - choose the right words and the right rhythm to them, and they can dupe their audience into thinking that this is something grand that they want to be part of. Something to convince them that experimenting on children at sea is a necessary sacrifice to advance the march of scientific progress.
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Post by shaihulud on Aug 15, 2022 3:59:05 GMT
Keep in mind that we know the children are brought up calling people from chester (or anyone with powers) "freaks" who don't belong among us normal people. So it might not actually be the hard sell you people are making it out to be. It might be that a lot of the population are actually happy at the thought of purging the population of the freaks.
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