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Post by guntherkrieg on Jun 28, 2022 8:01:01 GMT
You could say Renard's having an out of bodies experience.
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Post by speedwell on Jun 28, 2022 9:29:04 GMT
I always sort of wondered why Renard was able to control the form of the wolf doll so much. Was he able to do things like that with his original form, or was it something about controlling an inanimate form that allowed it? Coyote could control his form to the nth degree, and Loup can adjust his, but I've never been sure if Renard could do stuff like that. Pretty sure I remember him saying it was easy to take the form of a wolf because it was a wolf toy, but that doesn't really explain his teddy bear form. Maybe it has something to do with the wolf toy being inanimate? But if that's it, what prevents him from making it look like a fox? There must be some reason he needed Coyote's power before he could take over that man. I wouldn't think that would be necessary if he could just shift his original form into a human male (possibly furry). You're welcome for the mental image.  Oh, the "teddy bear" form was really just an animated version of the original wolf toy. It's also mentioned somewhere that Renard couldn't have shapeshifted in a living body; that the only reason he can do so is that the body was indeed nonliving. (That must have something vaguely to do with ownership contracts - I bet Renard would have been in deep doo-doo with Saslamel if he had appeared before the arbiter in a stolen human body as an egregious contract violator.) And there's nothing in particular preventing Renard from taking the form of a humanoid wolf "furry" (he in fact did so, briefly and grotesquely, earlier on), but any form that isn't more or less a white wolf, I assume he can't stretch to. Also, you're right, he couldn't body surf without Coyote's gift, and that is indeed why he begged Coyote for the power. Bottom line, Coyote/Loup can still change form, but no longer can body surf through "eyes".That said, there is nothing to indicate that he could not create additional bodies, or that he could not take control of a robot prior to its New embodiment. I suggest that the foreshadowed example of taking over a robot body was Ysengrin influencing the robot body using the tree seed. |
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Post by blahzor on Jun 28, 2022 10:03:17 GMT
What I still dont egt is what did Loup attack to lure annie and renard. Like we only see something on fire, but what He set up a BBQ party |
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Post by Corvo on Jun 28, 2022 12:43:14 GMT
Just had a weird thought: if Coyote's dead, was there a psychopomp to bring him into the afterlife? I wouldn't want to be the psychopomp to handle that one. Coyote probably psychopomp'd himself, with a bunch of Coyote clones as dancing pallbearers.  imagine his last words, it'd probably just be his entire history so it would take forever |
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Post by davidm on Jun 28, 2022 17:06:39 GMT
Given near start of story we had Annie fall off bridge to 2 fairies who were begging Annie to kill them so they could pass test/become human, and when Annie refuses, Y finishes them off... And Coyote said once Loup knew Coyotes full plan he would agree it was wonderful plan... And Loup very clearly does not want to die (so hard for truly dying to be wonderful plan), good chance that even if Loup dies, none of the 3 are truely dead, just come back in different form.
A "new person" body seems way more desirable for a Renard or Loup than a human or normal fox body... less fragile, less die of old age. Unclear if such a body can be made to tap into etheric/magic.
A "Jones" like body would seem even better, possible that Diego wanted a Jones body for "she died and we did nothing", and Robot and Kat is Diego's long plan to accomplish that. Jones does look like a mix of Jeanne and Kat, and Kat has already dropped Tik Toks into past. Jeanne personality given such a body as Diego's legacy might want her memories wiped.
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Post by Runningflame on Jun 28, 2022 18:22:08 GMT
I always sort of wondered why Renard was able to control the form of the wolf doll so much. Was he able to do things like that with his original form, or was it something about controlling an inanimate form that allowed it? Coyote could control his form to the nth degree, and Loup can adjust his, but I've never been sure if Renard could do stuff like that. Pretty sure I remember him saying it was easy to take the form of a wolf because it was a wolf toy, but that doesn't really explain his teddy bear form. Maybe it has something to do with the wolf toy being inanimate? But if that's it, what prevents him from making it look like a fox? He's an etheric being. Probably the answer is "That's just how it works."I had no idea Renard's body was still alive. If you look closely, you'll see it in the last panel here.  |
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Post by speedwell on Jun 28, 2022 18:54:22 GMT
Eh, we could well find out that Loup retrieved Renard's body from another timeline and destroyed that. Surely Renard's first instinct would be to test the psychic link between himself and that body, but in truth I don't know whether he really could (theoretically) leave the wolf toy and go back to his old body without repossessing his old body through its eyes, so such a link might not have existed.
Oh, why the H-E-double-hockey-sticks did Renard not simply beg Coyote for the ability to appear convincingly to be an attractive young man.... Shoulda, woulda, coulda, I know.
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Post by drmemory on Jun 29, 2022 17:21:02 GMT
I always sort of wondered why Renard was able to control the form of the wolf doll so much. Was he able to do things like that with his original form, or was it something about controlling an inanimate form that allowed it? Coyote could control his form to the nth degree, and Loup can adjust his, but I've never been sure if Renard could do stuff like that. Pretty sure I remember him saying it was easy to take the form of a wolf because it was a wolf toy, but that doesn't really explain his teddy bear form. Maybe it has something to do with the wolf toy being inanimate? But if that's it, what prevents him from making it look like a fox? There must be some reason he needed Coyote's power before he could take over that man. I wouldn't think that would be necessary if he could just shift his original form into a human male (possibly furry). You're welcome for the mental image. Oh, the "teddy bear" form was really just an animated version of the original wolf toy. It's also mentioned somewhere that Renard couldn't have shapeshifted in a living body; that the only reason he can do so is that the body was indeed nonliving. (That must have something vaguely to do with ownership contracts - I bet Renard would have been in deep doo-doo with Saslamel if he had appeared before the arbiter in a stolen human body as an egregious contract violator.) And there's nothing in particular preventing Renard from taking the form of a humanoid wolf "furry" (he in fact did so, briefly and grotesquely, earlier on), but any form that isn't more or less a white wolf, I assume he can't stretch to. Also, you're right, he couldn't body surf without Coyote's gift, and that is indeed why he begged Coyote for the power. Bottom line, Coyote/Loup can still change form, but no longer can body surf through "eyes".That said, there is nothing to indicate that he could not create additional bodies, or that he could not take control of a robot prior to its New embodiment. I suggest that the foreshadowed example of taking over a robot body was Ysengrin influencing the robot body using the tree seed. Ok, that makes sense. Can't make the wolf body look like a fox. I'm still a little puzzled about the human-form wolf toy shape though.
A nuance about Loup making a robot body - he thinks of the robots/NP as being dead. Or at least not alive (like never alive, not killed). I don't think we've seen him make a new body of something that isn't a version of himself or of some other living being. Yet. At least, if we haven't been told about it yet. Maybe it's easier to make a brand new body like that, rather than to duplicate, say, Tony.
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Post by speedwell on Jun 29, 2022 19:22:26 GMT
Oh, the "teddy bear" form was really just an animated version of the original wolf toy. It's also mentioned somewhere that Renard couldn't have shapeshifted in a living body; that the only reason he can do so is that the body was indeed nonliving. (That must have something vaguely to do with ownership contracts - I bet Renard would have been in deep doo-doo with Saslamel if he had appeared before the arbiter in a stolen human body as an egregious contract violator.) And there's nothing in particular preventing Renard from taking the form of a humanoid wolf "furry" (he in fact did so, briefly and grotesquely, earlier on), but any form that isn't more or less a white wolf, I assume he can't stretch to. Also, you're right, he couldn't body surf without Coyote's gift, and that is indeed why he begged Coyote for the power. Bottom line, Coyote/Loup can still change form, but no longer can body surf through "eyes".That said, there is nothing to indicate that he could not create additional bodies, or that he could not take control of a robot prior to its New embodiment. I suggest that the foreshadowed example of taking over a robot body was Ysengrin influencing the robot body using the tree seed. Ok, that makes sense. Can't make the wolf body look like a fox. I'm still a little puzzled about the human-form wolf toy shape though. A nuance about Loup making a robot body - he thinks of the robots/NP as being dead. Or at least no t alive (like never alive, not killed). I don't think we've seen him make a new body of something that isn't a version of himself or of some other living being. Yet. At least, if we haven't been told about it yet. Maybe it's easier to make a brand new body like that, rather than to duplicate, say, Tony.
My private theory about why Renard can change shape in the wolf toy at all is that a stuffed animal doll only vaguely and by an intentional act of creative imagination resembles anything in particular. I mean, I once took a bit of fleece, made a hand-sized rectangular pillow out of it stuffed with fiberfill and catnip, sewed a bit of rope to one end and embroidered cartoonish eyes, nose, mouth, and whiskers on one side. It resembled a cat in almost no identifiable way. My cat Jabberwock was aware it was his new toy, but my husband saying, "Jab, go get your cat" confused the heck out of poor Jab, who knew what the words "get" and "cat" meant, but thought we were telling him to go wake up my other cat Toffee. Which he did, only to get angry when Toffee stole his toy.  The thing was a cat only because I added meaningful iconographic symbology to it that, when taken as an integrated whole, enabled another human from my culture to say subconsciously to himself, "That bit of rope is like a tail; that group of loose threads resembles whiskers; those almond shapes with a circle in them are eye symbols in our culture; the item is stuffed with catnip; this must be intended to represent a cat". Anyway my point is that it's the bolded words above that concisely define what the practice and process of magic actually consist of. A child would say, "Well, he can only be a wolf because he's, um, a wolf", and be one hundred percent correct, because Surma made a "wolf". And why a wolf, you ask? It refers to lupus metallorum, an alchemical name for the element antimony. (Tom did so much research for this comic he should just print it out and present it for a master's thesis.) What's constraining Renard is, to sum up, not the physical appearance of the toy, but the actual, magical force of Surma's creative intent. A living being "intends" to be itself; it wasn't formed deliberately to represent something. (Reflect, indeed, that the New People were deliberately formed to resemble humans.) I wouldn't be bothered about the various wolfy approximations that Renard shapeshifts into, though. He really has been in Surma-wolf-toy form only twice, once when he was evading detection by hiding in Annie's schoolbag, and once when he was evading detection in Anthony's house. The teddy bear form is a teddy wolf; a minimal alteration that enables him still to tick "wolf", "toy", "fur-fabric", "small", and other pertinent characteristics while being animated. I imagine it takes a lot of force of will to maintain shapes less like a stuffed toy. God alone knows what sarcastic impulse gave rise to that massively inappropriate muscular form, haha. But Renard, the character we know as well as the Reynard of fable, is nothing if not willful.  Ask yourself, as a mental exercise, why Renard insisted on absolute privacy to draw his pigeon drawing - it seems clear he couldn't draw so expertly while holding a pen in blunt paws made of fake fur. |
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The thing was a cat only because I added meaningful iconographic symbology to it that, when taken as an integrated whole, enabled another human from my culture to say subconsciously to himself, "That bit of rope is like a tail; that group of loose threads resembles whiskers; those almond shapes with a circle in them are eye symbols in our culture; the item is stuffed with catnip; this must be intended to represent a cat".
Ask yourself, as a mental exercise, why Renard insisted on absolute privacy to draw his pigeon drawing - it seems clear he couldn't draw so expertly while holding a pen in blunt paws made of fake fur.