[2596] "What is this?"

[drmemory]

Mar 13, 2022 9:22:06 GMT blahzor said:

Mar 12, 2022 14:56:04 GMT drmemory said:

Here's a thought. Loup said "and now she moves the very substance of the forest as I can". We know, and he doesn't, that she actually used her computer to do this. Remote manufacturing (3D printing, the next generation), then teleportation. She uses her little magic keyboard to do this, that nobody else can use, and Loup has no clue what that thing is - he thinks in terms of personal power, only.

Anyway. The thought. Kat's computer is getting darned powerful, and is hooked up to the arrow. So in effect, maybe it IS using the ether to do some of this stuff! How much of Kat's abilities are in fact due to the arrow? If not directly powered by the arrow, drawing on it to do some of its tricks, she certainly learned a lot from it - how to make other devices that are effectively golems.

Also, what other really powerful computers have we heard of lately? Omega, you say? People talk about Kat using her abilities to create the seed Bismuth and take it back in time to start the court. Fine, that could happen, no arguments here. But is her computer Omega? Or if not, is it talking to Omega, or maybe taken over by it? I'm suggesting that instead of creating the seed Bismuth, maybe she created Omega.

This would make her responsible for events but in a very different way.

But her and the computer is basically one in the same in terms of the ethers contract system and maybe even the familiar system that Rey is now under and why he can use some of Annie's fire abilities. Kat is using any ability of the computer and she's constantly upgrading it, it would seems which indirectly increases her powers

Ok, I can see that.  From the point of view of Arbiter Salsamel, Kat and her toys would almost certainly be considered as just Kat, and it is Kat that got the new contract.  I'm still, even after quite a few chapters, concerned that Kat may in some sense "own" the New People due to that contract.  We haven't seen her do anything to prove or disprove this.  From Loup's point of view, though, the difference between Kat and Kat's tools is a distinction without a difference.  Even if he knew about it, it wouldn't mean much to him.  I have to imagine that trying to rules lawyer Loup wouldn't go well...

I wonder if the NP have to do what Kat says?  I imagine they would mostly do what she says anyway, as she is their deity, more or less, but that isn't quite the same as the original relationship Annie and Renard had.  For example.  The Arbiter agreed to modify that contract to be multi-use and changed Renard's status from "owned" to "familiar", so he'd still be under her control but not just an owned object.  Then, separately, he modified Annie's old contract of ownership that Kat had planned to use to move Arthur's mind into a new body (which required use of the arrow).  The Interpreter didn't say anything about the familiar contract explicitly and really seemed to be talking about the original contract with Kat's arrow modification.  So THAT contract was made multi-use so Kat could use it to help any of the robots that wanted new bodies.  It was now a new contract, which Kat had to sign.  I think that we will not know for sure until Kat gives an NP an order that they do not want to follow.

Anyway, if it indeed started out as a contract for owned objects, well, that's why I think Kat may actually own the New People, in a sense.  I wonder if we are soon to find out what "Breaking contracts may result in severe consequences" means?  Kat is messing with the fundamental rules of reality here, and I suspect we are going to meet the Arbiter and Interpreter somewhat soon.

On the bright side, if I'm right about what that contract means, then if Kat were to give Loup a new body, she would then have control over him. 

[Runningflame]

Mar 12, 2022 7:09:30 GMT antiyonder said:

So still a more wholesome love story in the making than Twilight?

Only because Annie has the strength of character and the support network to stand up for herself and not lose her identity mooning over the controlling/abusive supernatural guy just because he's H-O-T.

(Disclaimer: all I know about Twilight is from YouTube videos saying how bad it is. I may have a slightly skewed perspective.)

Mar 12, 2022 14:56:04 GMT drmemory said:

Here's a thought. Loup said "and now she moves the very substance of the forest as I can". We know, and he doesn't, that she actually used her computer to do this. Remote manufacturing (3D printing, the next generation), then teleportation. She uses her little magic keyboard to do this, that nobody else can use, and Loup has no clue what that thing is - he thinks in terms of personal power, only.

Renard had a similar reaction, even after seeing some of the behind-the-scenes bits.

[mturtle7]

Mar 14, 2022 3:06:07 GMT maxptc said:

Kind unrelated to just this page, but the chapter has been making me think about it. Are the new peoples bodies physical age correlated to the age they were as robots? Arthurs new body is an adult and he is an older robot, and we've seen adult and teenage looking new people, but no toddlers, young kids, middle age or old people yet. I get that most people wouldnt want to start in an older body particularly if they age organically. So is age another choice? The options we saw in the trasfer were all pretty similar age wise from what I can tell, so maybe it suggests or enforces age in some way. If so, what are the determining factors? If you're under a certain age do you just end up as a teenager? Does it consider maturity or emotional health? That seems crazy, but so does the possibility of age being a choice, you'd never know if the adult looking being you're talking to is really a 3 year old robot that's still learning or a if a random kid is really 300 years old. I mean the simplest solution is that its a nearish age approximation, and that we haven't seen any super new or super old robots transformed, but I don't know if that fits. I kinda found robot age a confusing topic before this new body situation, but it seems extra relevant now.

This is a REALLY. GOOD. QUESTION. However, I do see one possible answer, which would actually make it make sense that this isn't discussed much in the comics: age simply doesn't matter to the robots the same way it does to the humans, because before, there was only so much growing they could do. If the "bucket" we saw in that big extended metaphor sequence was really a "cap" on psychological/emotional development, then maybe it wouldn't actually matter very much if you're talking to a 300-year-old robot or a 3-year-old one. And this is especially true when you consider that the humans of the Court had a natural tendency to kind of take the robots for granted (that's my take on it, anyway), and the robots themselves could only find worth in themselves based on how useful they were.

I...realize that only sort of makes the whole age question less confusing, because I'm basically sidestepping that question by saying it (more or less) didn't actually matter, pre-disaster. But I think that also helps shed light on why and how the NP's humanoid bodies look the age that they do. The robots aren't going to care about matching their bodies to their personal level of "emotional maturity", since that's basically the same for all of them. Instead, given the choice, they'd just decide based on how they want to be perceived by humans, how humans perceived them in the past, and/or how they perceived humans in the past. For instance, I'd say it's fairly obvious that Arthur chose to look similar in age to Juliette, so they could relate to each other better and raise less eyebrows while being in a relationship. As for the others...maybe Lana chose to look like a girl in her late teens because that was the age most "cute" humans were in the books she read, and Piter chose to look more adult-ish because that's what people expect of barbers? I'm not really sure about the randomized bodies. Kat said she'd keep them "within certain limits"...what range of apparent ages would she have set for those limits? I guess that would depend a lot on whether the NP's bodies age at a natural human rate, but I really can't even begin to speculate on that right now. I actually really hope that part gets brought up in the comic, because it does seem rather important.

[maxptc]

Mar 15, 2022 1:15:26 GMT mturtle7 said:

Mar 14, 2022 3:06:07 GMT maxptc said:

Kind unrelated to just this page, but the chapter has been making me think about it. Are the new peoples bodies physical age correlated to the age they were as robots? Arthurs new body is an adult and he is an older robot, and we've seen adult and teenage looking new people, but no toddlers, young kids, middle age or old people yet. I get that most people wouldnt want to start in an older body particularly if they age organically. So is age another choice? The options we saw in the trasfer were all pretty similar age wise from what I can tell, so maybe it suggests or enforces age in some way. If so, what are the determining factors? If you're under a certain age do you just end up as a teenager? Does it consider maturity or emotional health? That seems crazy, but so does the possibility of age being a choice, you'd never know if the adult looking being you're talking to is really a 3 year old robot that's still learning or a if a random kid is really 300 years old. I mean the simplest solution is that its a nearish age approximation, and that we haven't seen any super new or super old robots transformed, but I don't know if that fits. I kinda found robot age a confusing topic before this new body situation, but it seems extra relevant now.

This is a REALLY. GOOD. QUESTION. However, I do see one possible answer, which would actually make it make sense that this isn't discussed much in the comics: age simply doesn't matter to the robots the same way it does to the humans, because before, there was only so much growing they could do. If the "bucket" we saw in that big extended metaphor sequence was really a "cap" on psychological/emotional development, then maybe it wouldn't actually matter very much if you're talking to a 300-year-old robot or a 3-year-old one. And this is especially true when you consider that the humans of the Court had a natural tendency to kind of take the robots for granted (that's my take on it, anyway), and the robots themselves could only find worth in themselves based on how useful they were.

I...realize that only sort of makes the whole age question less confusing, because I'm basically sidestepping that question by saying it (more or less) didn't actually matter, pre-disaster. But I think that also helps shed light on why and how the NP's humanoid bodies look the age that they do. The robots aren't going to care about matching their bodies to their personal level of "emotional maturity", since that's basically the same for all of them. Instead, given the choice, they'd just decide based on how they want to be perceived by humans, how humans perceived them in the past, and/or how they perceived humans in the past. For instance, I'd say it's fairly obvious that Arthur chose to look similar in age to Juliette, so they could relate to each other better and raise less eyebrows while being in a relationship. As for the others...maybe Lana chose to look like a girl in her late teens because that was the age most "cute" humans were in the books she read, and Piter chose to look more adult-ish because that's what people expect of barbers? I'm not really sure about the randomized bodies. Kat said she'd keep them "within certain limits"...what range of apparent ages would she have set for those limits? I guess that would depend a lot on whether the NP's bodies age at a natural human rate, but I really can't even begin to speculate on that right now. I actually really hope that part gets brought up in the comic, because it does seem rather important.

Yeah, time spent existing not being a major factor of robot age/maturity prior to all this makes sense actually. It doesn't hold a lot of significance to a machine how long it's been working for, to a degree at least. What they were programed to do, how advanced the body and brain(cpu/memory capacity)is, as well as time spent socializing with other robots or people having a lot more to do with it makes sense.

Not that this explanation would fully answer the new people age question, but it makes sense and would be a tidy answer: most robots see themselves/are emotionally equivalent to teenagers or youngish adults.

[antiyonder]

Mar 15, 2022 0:01:06 GMT Runningflame said:

Mar 12, 2022 7:09:30 GMT antiyonder said:

So still a more wholesome love story in the making than Twilight?

Only because Annie has the strength of character and the support network to stand up for herself and not lose her identity mooning over the controlling/abusive supernatural guy just because he's H-O-T.

(Disclaimer: all I know about Twilight is from YouTube videos saying how bad it is. I may have a slightly skewed perspective.)

Same with me, but I'm basing it off the trend of "Still a better love story than Twilight".

Infinity Gauntlet, one of the comic's adapted into Infinity Wars (The second being the mini series also titled Infinity Wars), has Thanos ending half the life of the universe.

Not in poorly conceived attempt to save it when he could multiply resources, but because he wanted to score with the liberal embodiment of Death.

Also different is that the Fantastic Four and X-Men are involved in the story.


And as an aside, the Silver Surfer animated series from 1998 adapted the attempt of Thanos wooing Death. But to comply with Standards and Practices made her into Lady Chaos.

It leads to him being able to control and reverse time. But since bankruptcy issues lead to no second season, the series ends with the universe being destroyed with a "The End?".

[speedwell]

Mar 15, 2022 4:43:28 GMT maxptc said:

Mar 15, 2022 1:15:26 GMT mturtle7 said:

This is a REALLY. GOOD. QUESTION. However, I do see one possible answer, which would actually make it make sense that this isn't discussed much in the comics: age simply doesn't matter to the robots the same way it does to the humans, because before, there was only so much growing they could do. If the "bucket" we saw in that big extended metaphor sequence was really a "cap" on psychological/emotional development, then maybe it wouldn't actually matter very much if you're talking to a 300-year-old robot or a 3-year-old one. And this is especially true when you consider that the humans of the Court had a natural tendency to kind of take the robots for granted (that's my take on it, anyway), and the robots themselves could only find worth in themselves based on how useful they were.

I...realize that only sort of makes the whole age question less confusing, because I'm basically sidestepping that question by saying it (more or less) didn't actually matter, pre-disaster. But I think that also helps shed light on why and how the NP's humanoid bodies look the age that they do. The robots aren't going to care about matching their bodies to their personal level of "emotional maturity", since that's basically the same for all of them. Instead, given the choice, they'd just decide based on how they want to be perceived by humans, how humans perceived them in the past, and/or how they perceived humans in the past. For instance, I'd say it's fairly obvious that Arthur chose to look similar in age to Juliette, so they could relate to each other better and raise less eyebrows while being in a relationship. As for the others...maybe Lana chose to look like a girl in her late teens because that was the age most "cute" humans were in the books she read, and Piter chose to look more adult-ish because that's what people expect of barbers? I'm not really sure about the randomized bodies. Kat said she'd keep them "within certain limits"...what range of apparent ages would she have set for those limits? I guess that would depend a lot on whether the NP's bodies age at a natural human rate, but I really can't even begin to speculate on that right now. I actually really hope that part gets brought up in the comic, because it does seem rather important.

Yeah, time spent existing not being a major factor of robot age/maturity prior to all this makes sense actually. It doesn't hold a lot of significance to a machine how long it's been working for, to a degree at least. What they were programed to do, how advanced the body and brain(cpu/memory capacity)is, as well as time spent socializing with other robots or people having a lot more to do with it makes sense.

Not that this explanation would fully answer the new people age question, but it makes sense and would be a tidy answer: most robots see themselves/are emotionally equivalent to teenagers or youngish adults.e

I agree that the robots, feeling inexperienced and socially insecure in a human-controlled context, would overwhelmingly choose young-appearing bodies. We haven't seen enough of them to guess whether any of them actually chose older adult forms (or even old adult forms, given that none of them could be expected to share our old-age infirmities). 

I don't think you can properly map robot psychology onto human psychology, though. As a woman in my mid-50s, I actually think this is THE BEST AGE, heh. I am too old to have to worry about getting pregnant, my career and finances are just past their peak (in fact I am semi-retired), and everyone takes me seriously as a mature human being and a "wise woman". I read as warm, friendly, nerdy, approachable, and pleasant in person. If I was a robot choosing a body, I would choose one much like my own, absent a few bothersome health issues. 

What would freak me out a bit is if I ran into a NP who was an apparent child. Humans are just that easily manipulated.

To me, the sole and entire reason Loup chose the body he did was because he wanted to be Annie's age yet someone who appealed to her emotionally as nonthreatening and as something to be protected and helped. There's Forest precedence in, most familiarly, the cuckoo.

[drmemory]

I have to think that robots probably didn't grow and change over time, with the notable exception of the Arthur line. In Arthur's case, he actually was given a whole series of bodies of different sizes. Does this mean he also got new programming added each time? Maybe something like new libraries being enabled? I'm guessing it does. For example, new programming to make him an appropriate companion for a teenage girl vs. an infant. Understanding Arthur still seems important somehow.

The robots NOT in that situation have been given the ability to grow by Kat. This is the ocean described by our favorite cult leader in full-on angel avatar mode. I'm not sure they had a mental age before being converted to New People but I bet they do now! Look how much more human Lana is, for example. The barber, not so much, which makes me suspect that their old roles and mental capacities set their starting point. But I think what Robot was describing was that they now have the ability to grow and become something different, something very close to human.

[drmemory]

Mar 15, 2022 13:06:39 GMT speedwell said:

Mar 15, 2022 4:43:28 GMT maxptc said:

Yeah, time spent existing not being a major factor of robot age/maturity prior to all this makes sense actually. It doesn't hold a lot of significance to a machine how long it's been working for, to a degree at least. What they were programed to do, how advanced the body and brain(cpu/memory capacity)is, as well as time spent socializing with other robots or people having a lot more to do with it makes sense.

Not that this explanation would fully answer the new people age question, but it makes sense and would be a tidy answer: most robots see themselves/are emotionally equivalent to teenagers or youngish adults.e

I agree that the robots, feeling inexperienced and socially insecure in a human-controlled context, would overwhelmingly choose young-appearing bodies. We haven't seen enough of them to guess whether any of them actually chose older adult forms (or even old adult forms, given that none of them could be expected to share our old-age infirmities). 

I don't think you can properly map robot psychology onto human psychology, though. As a woman in my mid-50s, I actually think this is THE BEST AGE, heh. I am too old to have to worry about getting pregnant, my career and finances are just past their peak (in fact I am semi-retired), and everyone takes me seriously as a mature human being and a "wise woman". I read as warm, friendly, nerdy, approachable, and pleasant in person. If I was a robot choosing a body, I would choose one much like my own, absent a few bothersome health issues. 

What would freak me out a bit is if I ran into a NP who was an apparent child. Humans are just that easily manipulated.

To me, the sole and entire reason Loup chose the body he did was because he wanted to be Annie's age yet someone who appealed to her emotionally as nonthreatening and as something to be protected and helped. There's Forest precedence in, most familiarly, the cuckoo.

Actually, they mostly chose random bodies, no? Kat told Robot "We'll keep the variables within certain limits". I have to think that the reason most of them look like young adults is due to that. Agree that you can't really map it onto human psychology, but I'm not so sure that they specifically asked for young-appearing bodies.

Consider this - before being given their oceans, they probably didn't understand humans very well at all. At least, not the ones like our pipe inspecting friend! So if they did choose young-appearing bodies, I would have to wonder what they were thinking? I think it's more likely Kat (and Robot) set up a range of allowable parameters for the RNG button - height, hair color, eye color, age, etc. - and kept the rest to "healthy human standard" - normal complement of appendages and facial features. Not only are they all healthy young adult in appearance, they also don't show any scars from life yet. I don't know about you, but I didn't make it to adulthood totally unmarked by life. Things happen... But now that they are New People I expect we'll see more individuation as time passes. I'm sure Robot had an influence here as well - he's always looking out for his children. Of them all, he's spent the most time around humans and I have to think he understands them the best. He would certainly want to give them every advantage he could.

In a way it might have been more fair to start them all out looking like children, but God would that have been creepy! I'm glad Tom didn't do that.

[blahzor]

They probably got teen bodies as it's easier for them to blend in since the forest to human transformation also makes them teens. Would be weirder if adults just showed up en masse when the court is not a easy place to find according to Jones

[maxptc]

Mar 16, 2022 6:14:21 GMT blahzor said:

They probably got teen bodies as it's easier for them to blend in since the forest to human transformation also makes them teens. Would be weirder if adults just showed up en masse when the court is not a easy place to find according to Jones

Very good point, and this would also explain why we have a few adults but almost all kids. The random option could be set to make them teens not for a psychological or philosophical reason, but just as a matter of security or what is precived as "normal" to Kat. Looking like an adult is always allowed but choosing how you look is just not a favored option, choosing to look older likely even less so.

[Runningflame]

The robots could be called metal men, but they act like children sometimes.

From a different angle, we have already met a character who looks like a child but isn't.

[blahzor]

Mar 15, 2022 0:01:06 GMT Runningflame said:

Mar 12, 2022 7:09:30 GMT antiyonder said:

So still a more wholesome love story in the making than Twilight?

Only because Annie has the strength of character and the support network to stand up for herself and not lose her identity mooning over the controlling/abusive supernatural guy just because he's H-O-T.

(Disclaimer: all I know about Twilight is from YouTube videos saying how bad it is. I may have a slightly skewed perspective.)

Mar 12, 2022 14:56:04 GMT drmemory said:

Here's a thought. Loup said "and now she moves the very substance of the forest as I can". We know, and he doesn't, that she actually used her computer to do this. Remote manufacturing (3D printing, the next generation), then teleportation. She uses her little magic keyboard to do this, that nobody else can use, and Loup has no clue what that thing is - he thinks in terms of personal power, only.

Renard had a similar reaction, even after seeing some of the behind-the-scenes bits.

This reminded me of something. Kat said she wanted to make a version of her mom's Eye spell

I'm assuming she's going to make one that's anti-Coyote or at the very least Anti-Loup but without the pain

[Runningflame]

Mar 17, 2022 12:51:03 GMT blahzor said:

Mar 15, 2022 0:01:06 GMT Runningflame said:

Renard had a similar reaction, even after seeing some of the behind-the-scenes bits.

This reminded me of something. Kat said she wanted to make a version of her mom's Eye spell

I'm assuming she's going to make one that's anti-Coyote or at the very least Anti-Loup but without the pain

That is a great callback, and something I'd completely forgotten. What if Kat makes a device for restraining Loup? What if they figure out Loup is Jerrek and use it on him? And what if it works??

[drmemory]

Mar 13, 2022 9:22:06 GMT blahzor said:

Mar 12, 2022 14:56:04 GMT drmemory said:

Here's a thought. Loup said "and now she moves the very substance of the forest as I can". We know, and he doesn't, that she actually used her computer to do this. Remote manufacturing (3D printing, the next generation), then teleportation. She uses her little magic keyboard to do this, that nobody else can use, and Loup has no clue what that thing is - he thinks in terms of personal power, only.

Anyway. The thought. Kat's computer is getting darned powerful, and is hooked up to the arrow. So in effect, maybe it IS using the ether to do some of this stuff! How much of Kat's abilities are in fact due to the arrow? If not directly powered by the arrow, drawing on it to do some of its tricks, she certainly learned a lot from it - how to make other devices that are effectively golems.

Also, what other really powerful computers have we heard of lately? Omega, you say? People talk about Kat using her abilities to create the seed Bismuth and take it back in time to start the court. Fine, that could happen, no arguments here. But is her computer Omega? Or if not, is it talking to Omega, or maybe taken over by it? I'm suggesting that instead of creating the seed Bismuth, maybe she created Omega.

This would make her responsible for events but in a very different way.

But her and the computer is basically one in the same in terms of the ethers contract system and maybe even the familiar system that Rey is now under and why he can use some of Annie's fire abilities. Kat is using any ability of the computer and she's constantly upgrading it, it would seems which indirectly increases her powers

Thanks for reminding me of the contract system!  Let's consider what contracts Kat has:

She certainly owns her computer and anything spun off from it, such as remote-manufactured, teleported gizmos.

I would think she also owns those tools she just made for shaping the Bismuth goo.  Standard contract for owned objects.

I fear she also owns the NP, or at least their bodies.  How could it be any other way?  She created the computer, she created the tools to create them, she ultimately created the bodies and gave them life... or something similar to life.  This is one of many reasons I sometimes bring up the modified contract the Arbiter gave her, modified from Annie's contract of ownership of Renard.  I'm certain we still haven't seen the last of the repercussions from that!  Whether she only owns the bodies or also the people... don't know.

Then there's the arrow.  She was cautioned to be careful with that thing.  She signed a new contract, supposedly taking responsibility for it, as she couldn't do the NP mind transfer/creation thing without using the arrow.  But we don't really know what all the arrow can do, and we've seen no sign of how well protected it is.  Who knows how that will all play out?  I seem to remember something about severe consequences for letting bad things be done with the arrow.

To your point, I agree that Kat and her computer should be considered together, since she is its creator and clearly holds the contract of ownership over it.  If she uses her computer or derivative tools to do what she's doing, I agree that it counts as her.

I just hope Omega hasn't hacked her computer it or convinced it to help him with bad activities or anything like that!  Also, that the court doesn't fully understand Kat and her computer and their combined capabilities.  That seems like it would be... bad.

[drmemory]

Mar 16, 2022 18:09:51 GMT maxptc said:

Mar 16, 2022 6:14:21 GMT blahzor said:

They probably got teen bodies as it's easier for them to blend in since the forest to human transformation also makes them teens. Would be weirder if adults just showed up en masse when the court is not a easy place to find according to Jones

Very good point, and this would also explain why we have a few adults but almost all kids. The random option could be set to make them teens not for a psychological or philosophical reason, but just as a matter of security or what is precived as "normal" to Kat. Looking like an adult is always allowed but choosing how you look is just not a favored option, choosing to look older likely even less so.

It might be as simple as: Kat is in school and thinks of the Court as a school.  So, default body matches "student".  Not all of them of course - Arthur appears older.

[maxptc]

Apr 28, 2022 21:21:29 GMT drmemory said:

Mar 16, 2022 18:09:51 GMT maxptc said:

Very good point, and this would also explain why we have a few adults but almost all kids. The random option could be set to make them teens not for a psychological or philosophical reason, but just as a matter of security or what is precived as "normal" to Kat. Looking like an adult is always allowed but choosing how you look is just not a favored option, choosing to look older likely even less so.

It might be as simple as: Kat is in school and thinks of the Court as a school.  So, default body matches "student".  Not all of them of course - Arthur appears older.

Arthur wasn't a default body, if by default you mean random, it was very much designed. But yeah normal to Kat being a student at a school makes sense.

[saardvark]

Apr 28, 2022 21:18:44 GMT drmemory said:

Mar 13, 2022 9:22:06 GMT blahzor said:

But her and the computer is basically one in the same in terms of the ethers contract system and maybe even the familiar system that Rey is now under and why he can use some of Annie's fire abilities. Kat is using any ability of the computer and she's constantly upgrading it, it would seems which indirectly increases her powers

Thanks for reminding me of the contract system!  Let's consider what contracts Kat has:

She certainly owns her computer and anything spun off from it, such as remote-manufactured, teleported gizmos.

I would think she also owns those tools she just made for shaping the Bismuth goo.  Standard contract for owned objects.

I fear she also owns the NP, or at least their bodies.  How could it be any other way?  She created the computer, she created the tools to create them, she ultimately created the bodies and gave them life... or something similar to life.  This is one of many reasons I sometimes bring up the modified contract the Arbiter gave her, modified from Annie's contract of ownership of Renard.  I'm certain we still haven't seen the last of the repercussions from that!  Whether she only owns the bodies or also the people... don't know.

Then there's the arrow.  She was cautioned to be careful with that thing.  She signed a new contract, supposedly taking responsibility for it, as she couldn't do the NP mind transfer/creation thing without using the arrow.  But we don't really know what all the arrow can do, and we've seen no sign of how well protected it is.  Who knows how that will all play out?  I seem to remember something about severe consequences for letting bad things be done with the arrow.

To your point, I agree that Kat and her computer should be considered together, since she is its creator and clearly holds the contract of ownership over it.  If she uses her computer or derivative tools to do what she's doing, I agree that it counts as her.

I just hope Omega hasn't hacked her computer it or convinced it to help him with bad activities or anything like that!  Also, that the court doesn't fully understand Kat and her computer and their combined capabilities.  That seems like it would be... bad.

Yeah, there are parts of the contract stuff that still bother me... it seems Kat got in trouble for

(1) transfer the contract of ownership of the wolf stuffed doll (occupied by Renard) from Annie to Arthur
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2150
since use of the arrow in transference can apparently negate contracts
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2151

(2) using a single use contract a multiple way (transfer of ownership of both a toy and Arthur's mind)
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2154

(3) transfer of ownership in such a way as to end up owning a living (sentient) mind (transfer of Arthur's mind into the lifeless shell Kat "owned" as its creator)
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2154

They got around (1) with original owner Annie's OK.
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2156
They got around (2) by a rewrite of the contract into a multi-use form 
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2159
But its not obvious (3) was ever resolved.  As others have suggested, it would seem Kat "owns" all the NPs = living minds, quite "illegally" (from a Salsamel point of view).
Serious implications lurk about in dark corners..... possibly with severe toothy consequences...
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2160

[abbomeister]

The beginning of the chapter begins with a description of some common states of objects, which is handy for understanding what's up with Reynardine's contract (Annie controls/owns the body, but Rey is trapped inside). However, at this point, we don't really know much about the contract system beyond that. What in the world does "Negate Contracts" mean? Is there a different classification system for sentient beings that *aren't* trapped in a pre-owned body?

Having the classification of a 'living mind' would solve a lot of questions, like the ability of a 'soul totem' to be transferred from one body to another, Coyote's Shadow-People that are not 'alive' in some way, Jones' existence, and the status of the New People. However, it could also push the plot into some dangerous territory if the Court has an official definition of 'life/mind.' They could do some big damage if they have access to Kat's EtherTech/Arrow Computer and start breaking the rules of reality (assuming Saslamel and the Ghostie can't handle that much chaos at once like in the Jeanne situation).

[drmemory]

I'm not sure which of these is more important (and scarier) - Chekhov's Arrow or Checkhov's Teeth.

I imagine we'll see them both again at around the same time. 

Reference, in case that seemed totally random.

[warrl]

Well, the teeth look like they were borrowed from Florence Ambrose.

[saardvark]

Apr 30, 2022 5:25:53 GMT warrl said:

Well, the teeth look like they were borrowed from Florence Ambrose.

well, she is a wise, gentle and kindly (Bowman's) wolf....so Clippy's just being smiley and friendly, right?